Talk:Andrey Damyanov

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Kastoria and Kozani are in the Greek region Macedonia. Debar is in the Republic of Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.92.224.94 (talk) 15:24, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

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Macedonian identity of Damjanov is a POV

According to international, neutral reliable sources at his time ethnic Macedonian identity was not developed. As for example:

• Up until the early twentieth century, the international community viewed Macedonians as a regional variety of Bulgarians, i.e. Western Bulgarians. However, during the Paris Peace Conference of 1919 the Allies sanctioned Serbian control of much of Macedonia, because they accepted the belief that Macedonians were in fact Southern Serbs. This extraordinary change in opinion can largely be attributed to one man, Jovan Cvijić, a prominent geographer at the University of Belgrade. Nationalism and Territory: Constructing Group Identity in Southeastern Europe, Geographical perspectives on the human past, George W. White, Rowman & Littlefield, 2000, ISBN 0847698092, p. 236.
• "The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one." Eugene N. Borza, "Macedonia Redux", in "The Eye Expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman Antiquity", ed. Frances B. Tichener & Richard F. Moorton, University of California Press, 1999, p. 259.
• During the 20th century, Slavo Macedonian national feeling has shifted. At the beginning of the 20th century, Slavic patriots in Macedonia felt a strong attachment to Macedonia as a multi-ethnic homeland. They imagined a Macedonian community uniting themselves with non-Slavic Macedonians... Most of these Macedonian Slavs also saw themselves as Bulgarians. By the middle of the 20th. century, however Macedonian patriots began to see Macedonian and Bulgarian loyalties as mutually exclusive. Regional Macedonian nationalism had become ethnic Macedonian nationalism... This transformation shows that the content of collective loyalties can shift. Region, Regional Identity and Regionalism in Southeastern Europe, Ethnologia Balkanica Series, Klaus Roth, Ulf Brunnbauer, LIT Verlag Münster, 2010, p. 127., ISBN 3825813878.
• In Bulgarian I have found the books claiming his Bulgarian identity:
• Асен Василиев, Български възрожденски майстори: живописци, резбари, строители, Наука и изкуствo, 1965, стр. 161.
• Khristo Angelov Khristov, Mito Isusov, Sbornik v chest na akademik Khristo Khristov: Institut za istoria (Bŭlgarska akademii︠a︡ na naukite) Izd-vo na Bŭlgarskata akademii︠a︡ na naukite, 1988, str. 54.Jingiby (talk) 18:11, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Additional sources supporting this claim is nonsense:

• "Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY, Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)." Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 422. ISBN 978-0-19-924409-6.
• "At the end of the World War I there were very few historians or ethnographers, who claimed that a separate Macedonian nation existed... Of those Slavs who had developed some sense of national identity, the majority probably considered themselves to be Bulgarians, although they were aware of differences between themselves and the inhabitants of Bulgaria... The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians" .The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65-66.Jingiby (talk) 18:35, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

More sources supporting he was not Macedonian:

• "The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. While Bulgarian was most common affiliation then, mistreatment by occupying Bulgarian troops during WWII cured most Macedonians from their pro-Bulgarian sympathies, leaving them embracing the new Macedonian identity promoted by the Tito regime after the war." Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 193. ISBN 0-8014-8736-6.
• "Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia, perhaps a million and a half in all – had a Bulgarian national consciousness at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, VMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the WWII. Tito was determined that this should not happen. The first Congress of AVNOJ in November 1942 had paranteed equal rights to all the 'peoples of Yugoslavia', and specified the Macedonians among them..." "The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1-85065-492-1, p. 67. Jingiby (talk) 18:55, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

In fact it is impossible Damyanov was a Macedonian. "The construction of the Macedonian identity started sometime around the very end of the 19th century when the first attempts at expressing Macedonian national identity were made. During that time a very small, yet very active, number of intellectuals in Thessaloniki, Belgrade, Sofia and St. Petersburg laid the foundations “of the process of ‘imagining’ a Macedonian national community, the beginning of the construction of a Macedonian national identity and culture” (Danforth, Loring M. (1995). The Macedonian Conflict/ Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, Princeton University Press, p. 45.)". If there are no evidences Damyanov was a part from those very small groups,(I am shure he was not, because he died in 1878) we must remove this statement from the lede of this article. Jingiby (talk) 19:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Below is the opinion of professional historian as John Van Antwerp Fine Jr., who is an expert of Balkan history at the University of Michigan: "Until the late 19th century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is now two separate nationalities, comprised a single people, the Bulgarians. Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle ages and into the 19th century, the term ‘Macedonian’ was used entirely in reference to a geographical region. anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian...Nevertheless, the absence of a national consciousness in the past is no grounds to reject the Macedonians as a nationality today." "The Early Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Sixth to the Late Twelfth Century," John Van Antwerp Fine, University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, pp. 36–37. Jingiby (talk) 06:40, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Gentleman, all you need is to find a reliable source saying he is Bulgarian which you seem to have hard time finding. WP:SYNTH is not allowed. If you continue removing sources and sourced content and adding unsourced, you will be reported. FkpCascais (talk) 08:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Sources I found are 3: one cites him directly as Macedonian (Its chef architect was a famous Macedonian architect and zograph Andreja Damjanov); and another two dont label him ethnically or nationally at all (The protomaster was Andreja Damjanov from Veles who, ... and Balkanologie does the same. So, seems to be clearly some problem in labeling him as Bulgarian, so don´t push it by force withou sources. FkpCascais (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Beware I left out Macedonian sources saying he is Macedonian, and searched only sources coming from third party. I must say I didn´t found a single one saying he is Bulgarian that not Wikipedia article mirrors. FkpCascais (talk) 09:20, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Exemples of Macedonian sources in English are: macedoniatravel.com (Section about St. Joakim Osogovski, which says: "... is also a masterpiece by one of the greatest Macedonian architects of antiquity, Andreja Damjanov."), or idividi.com.mk, which says: "Andreja Damjanov (Papradiste, 1813 – Veles, 1878) was a Macedonian architect, considered one of the most eminent Balkan master-builders.")

Note: the source Balkanologie actually further down says ". On voit l'architecte macédonien s'adapter à la demande sociale de ses commanditaires serbes, en combinant simultanément des éléments traditionnels hérités de l'école de la Morava du XVe siècle et des éléments baroques occidentaux venus d'outre-Save. " so that one confirms as well he is Macedonian. FkpCascais (talk) 10:58, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

The sources provided by me above are academic. FkpCascais, please, IdiVidi.com is a private site! Here is not a forum.Jingiby (talk) 11:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Please check: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history).

The results of the scholarly process appear in numerous forms:

• Books published by academic and scholarly presses by historians, as reviewed in scholarly historical journals or as demonstrated by past works of a similar nature by the historian. Historians carry out original research, often using primary sources. They usually have a PhD or advanced academic training in historiography.
• Chapters in books published by academic and scholarly presses by or edited by historians, as reviewed in scholarly historical journals or as demonstrated by past works of a similar nature by the historian or editors
• Research articles by historians in scholarly peer-reviewed journals etc. Jingiby (talk) 11:35, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Please open you Macedonian question somewhere else. Either you have a source saying he is Bulgarian or you dont. If you dont, SYNTH is not valid and if you add it again you will be reported. FkpCascais (talk) 11:47, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

About Damjanov: "Damjanov is regularly included in histories of Serbian architecture as one of the first architects of the “Serbo-Byzantine style.” However, careful study of the biographies and the legacy of traditional master builders rarely reveals the existence of a national motivation behind their works. Not surprisingly, it has been possible to praise Andreja Damjanov as a great “Bulgarian master” in Bulgarian architectural literature and as a “Macedonian master” in the Macedonian literature." Roumen Dontchev Daskalov, Diana Mishkova, Tchavdar Marinov, Alexander Vezenkov, Entangled Histories of the Balkans - Volume Four: Concepts, Approaches, and (Self-)Representations, Balkan Studies Library, BRILL, 2017, ISBN 9004337822, p. 488. Jingiby (talk) 12:19, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I am OK with your latest edits, but I am not OK with appliying here your synthesis of denial of Macedonians ethnic existance prior 20 c. You know very well that is a highly politicized issue and that you are pushing the Bulgarian POV on the matter. In my view it is perfectly fine you do it, but not here. That is a complex issue which you should take to a place where a broad discussion could be made and consensuses reached on how to apply it in individual articles. Removing and ignoring plenty of sources saying he is Macedonian architect just because you are convinced the authors you read are right by denying Macedonian nationality and, subsequently, your claim that all these sources are wrong in describing him that way, is also a no-no. Not to mention your earlier POV pushing by editing he is Bulgarian just because you have sources saying Macedonians were Bulgarians (1-that is polemical and undergoing academic discussion, 2-many nationalities inhabited Macedonia so in no way you can come to Macedonian=Bulgarian conclusion, 3- even if trouth, you would still need a direct citation saying Damyanov=Bulgarian, and not by synth). The more I read about Damjanov, the more I actually see he has no links at all with Bulgaria. FkpCascais (talk) 13:22, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 April 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Don't see general agreement for this name change. This article was created in 2006 as Andreja Damjanov and was renamed less than a year later in 2007 to its present title. So for now, this article will retain its long-term stable title. As is usual with a no-consensus outcome, editors can strengthen their arguments and make another attempt in a few months to garner consensus for this rename. Have a Great Day and Happy Publishing! (closed by page mover)  Paine Ellsworth  ^put'r there  17:47, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

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Andrey Damyanov → Andreja Damjanov – All English-language sources refer to him as Andreja Damjanov. http://spomenicikulture.org.rs/en/kulturna-dobra/crkva-svetog-velikomu-enika-georgija-u-smederevu http://www.idividi.com.mk/english/macedonia/477782/ https://www.mia.mk/en/Inside/RenderSingleNews/325/132831052 http://visit.veles.gov.mk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=100&Itemid=134 https://www.smederevowelcome.com/discover-smederevo/attractions/the-church-of-st-george and many more. Current name is a Bulgarianised version, however he was not Bulgarian, neither born in Bulgaria, and worked in Macedonia, Serbia and Bosnia, so there is no rason to have a Bulgarianised name, despite the attempts fom behalve of Bulgarian editors to claim that all Macedonians were Bulgarians, there is not a single source quaoting "Damjanov Bulgarian" that not Wikipedia mirrors. FkpCascais (talk) 12:29, 3 April 2018 (UTC) FkpCascais (talk) 12:29, 3 April 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Hhhhhkohhhhh (talk) 05:58, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Note: I am excluding the results which refer to the "Andreja Damjanov award" which are even many more numerous. FkpCascais (talk) 12:42, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Andrey and Andreya are two forms common in Bulgarian name system. More the -ov ending is typical for Bulgarian names. Not for Macedonian -ski or Serbian -ic. What is the problem? Jingiby (talk) 13:13, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

By the way what is behind this claim: "there is not a single source quaoting "Damjanov Bulgarian"? Maybe a joke? Just look above. Jingiby (talk) 13:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that the absolute vast majority of English-language sources refer to him as "Andreja Damjanov".

Surnames ending in -ov are very commun in Macedonia and Serbia as well, while Andrej and Andreja are found in Macedonian and Serbian naming systems also. You "naming analsis" proves nothing, and again you are falling into slippery WP:SYNTH to back up claims.

What sources you have saying diectly Andreja Damjanov is Bulgarian? Can you please list them here. FkpCascais (talk) 13:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

• Асен Василиев, Български възрожденски майстори: живописци, резбари, строители, Наука и изкуствo, 1965, стр. 156. In English: Asen Vasiliev, Bulgarian Revival Masters: Artists, Carvers, Builders, Science and Art, 1965, p. 156.
• Румяна Радкова, Българската интелигенция през Възраждането (XVIII - първата половина на XIX в.) Наука и изкуство. 1986, стр. 184. In English: Rumyana Radkova, Bulgarian Intelligence during the Revival period (XVIII - first half of XIX century) Science and Art. 1986, p. 184.
• Петър Кантарджиев, Константин Жеков, Творци на българската архитектура, том 1, Съюз на архитектите в България, 1982, стр. 73-74. In English:Peter Kantardzhiev, Konstantin Zhekov, Artists of Bulgarian Architecture, vol. 1, Union of Architects in Bulgaria, 1982, pp. 73-74.
• Божидар Димитров, Български старини в Македония, "АНИКО" ЕООД, 2000, стр. 37. In English: Bojidar Dimitrov, Bulgarian Old Age in Macedonia, ANIKO EOOD, 2000, p. 37.
• Енциклопедия на изобразителните изкуства в България том 2 М-Р, Издателство на БАН, 1987, стр. 493. In English: Encyclopedia of Fine Arts in Bulgaria Volume 2, Publishing House of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, 1987, p. 493. Jingiby (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Why can´t we verify them and why are they absolutelly all Bulgarian? Dont you have any verifiable one and non-Bulgarian? PS: I think anyone understands Bulgarians have a megalomaniac believe all Macedonians are Bulgarians, but do you have any non-Bulgarian source saying he is Bulgarian? FkpCascais (talk) 16:22, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

• The current title, "Andrey Damyanov," gets 1320 hits on Google Books. "Andreja Damjanov" gets 184. Dekimasuよ! 01:25, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

@Dekimasu: Can you please provide both links. I get for "Andrey Damyanov" one book about him with all other results totally urelated to him. While I get 970 hits for "Andreja Damjanov" all related to him. FkpCascais (talk) 04:33, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

They are just straight Google Books searches in quotes. I know that search results can vary from person to person. One of the main results I get under "Andreja Damjanov" is from Entangled Histories of the Balkans and reads, "Not surprisingly, it has been possible to praise Andreja Damjanov as a great 'Bulgarian master' in Bulgarian architectural literature and as a 'Macedonian master' in the Macedonian literature." The first result I get for "Andrey Damyanov" is World and Its Peoples. I didn't check to see that they all are accurate hits. Is that the one you're getting? Dekimasuよ! 05:16, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.