Talk:Andy Murray/Archive 4

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British or Scottish

So, we know that Murray is Scottish, but he plays for Great Britain. I think his infobox should have the British flag (as it does now), and his opening paragraph should just mention that he is Scottish, but considered British for ATP purposes. Anyone disagree? --Flute138 00:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Andy Murray does play for Great Britain in the Davis Cup, but has stated his nationality to be Scottish on more than one occasion.AlenWatters 11:07, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

And no-ones denying that as far as I know, he does however represent Great Britain in tennis tournaments, in Davis Cup and in singles it says Andrew Murray "GBR". So it shouldn't be changed Jamandell (d69) 22:15, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this article about Andrew Murray or his game of tennis? Great Britain is ambiguous, Scotland is not.I already forgot 22:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Knowing very little about the motives behind labeling a person as scottish or british, I researched the wiki articles on Famous Scots and found the overwhelming majority of articles describe famous scots as scottish and not british. In fact, andrew murray is the only sports player I found being labeled as british.I already forgot 21:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

But, as mentioned above, for all intents and purposes, Andy Murray is playing for Great Britain, not Scotland. So I think we should find some way to word this effectively--"Andy Murray is a Scottish Player currently playing under the British flag, known for his great outbursts of passion...", or something to that effect.

There is an absolute wealth of excellent reference material attesting to the fact that Murray is Scottish, per WP:CITE.

"Scottish" implies "British", but the reverse is not true. By replacing Scottish with British the anonymous IP addresses are removing information from Wikipedia, not adding to knowledge.

Please note that the Severiano Ballesteros article says that he is "Spanish", not "European", despite the fact that he regularly represented Europe in the Ryder Cup. The same for all the English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh rugby stars who have played for the British and Irish Lions.

To help to cut down on the frequent IP revert wars on this article I have added five references, and there are an awful lot more available:

• Aberdeen Cup 2006: "The Scotland vs England team challenge will see Murray lead his country against an England team led by Rusedski."
• "Murray earns Britain a first fine in 106 years", The Scotsman, 10 Apr 2006 - "Andy Murray yesterday made tennis history of a less welcome kind after picking up Great Britain's first fine in the Davis Cup competition."
• Top Scot award ceremony 2005, The Scotsman, 1 Dec 2005 - "But the young stars of Scotland were snapping at their heels, with the teenagers Nicola Benedetti and Andrew Murray being awarded prizes for their contributions to music and sport, respectively.", "Murray, 18, ended the year with wins over Tim Henman and a Greg Rusedski-led England squad in the Aberdeen Cup."
• "Murray out to please Scots crowd", BBC Sport online, 25 November 2005 - "Andy Murray aims to raise the profile of tennis in Scotland as his home country prepare to take on England in the inaugural Aberdeen Cup.
• "... Andy Murray and Alex Bogdanovic were yesterday confirmed as Great Britain's two singles nominations for the tie against Israel, which starts today", The Daily Telegraph, 21 July 2006

Thanks. --Mais oui! 20:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Although I'm not Scottish, I do feel that at least we should make sure that the Scottish Saltire is displayed as the same size as the Union Jack in the infobox. aLii 15:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry too much about that. The Scottish flag just looks smaller because it is shown at the correct ratio of 3:5 - whereas the Union Flag has a correct ratio of 1:2. --Mais oui! 15:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Its funy how Tim Henman, Greg Rusedski and Alex Bogdanovic all have just the GB flag. Is it just scottish people obsessing because the want him to be known just as Scottish Mr. mister 19:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

In his capacity as a tennis player, Andy Murray is British and represents Great Britain. This is confirmed by the ATP [1] website. In the Davis Cup he represents Great Britain, and enters every ATP tournament as Andy Murray [GBR]. That he represented Scotland in the Aberdeen Cup is irrelevant as this was a one-off event and not a recognised ATP event. It has been mentioned elsewhere on the page that Murray is irritated when people refer to him as English. Please do not vandalise the page by continually changing his nationality to Scottish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.12.22.129 (talk • contribs) 20:56, 28 September 2006.

The article isn't about his capacity as a tennis player. Its about a person who is Scottish and is notable for his accomplishments as a tennis player. If he primarily played for Canada (for whatever reason), would he no longer be Scottish? I don't understand why this is so hard to comprehend. He's Scottish and plays tennis for Britain. Simple as that. I also don't understand how calling him Scottish equates to calling him English as you mentioned. --I already forgot 23:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I have stated that Murray is British. I have cited evidence from very reliable sources. Please do not vandalise this page by deleting this information and these sources. To say that "Andy Murray is a British tennis player" makes sense. To say that "Andy Murray is a Scottish tennis player who plays for both Scotland and great Britain" does not. Murray played for Scotland in a one-off non-ATP tournament towards the end of last year. To say he plays for Scotland is factually incorrect -'plays' is present tense and suggests that he regularly plays for Scotland which we know is not true. You are also violating Wiki's biographical rules relating to the subject of nationality.

Deleting factually correct information ands citations is considered to be vandalism, and will not be tolerated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.12.22.129 (talk • contribs).

Although I have just banned the above user for breaking the WP:3RR rule and reverted the article to the current consensus, I personally think the Scottish flag should not be in the infobox since Murray plays for Britain, and only very occasionally for "Scotland". However I would not agree with the other changes made by 84.12.22.129 in those edits/reverts. Thanks/wangi 05:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with 84.12.22.129 that it makes more sense to say that Murray is British rather than that he plays for Scotland. Murray receives support from millions every year at Wimbledon not because he is Scottish but because he is British. The BBC and other major news organisations frequently refer to Murray as Britain's number-1, and Murray has said on many occasions that Tim Henman was his idol because he was Britain's major hope. Also, the sources in the article by 84.12.22.129 are far more reliable than in the revert by wangi, where THREE references are made to the one-off and seemingly unimportant Aberdeen Cup. In summary, I think it is both incorrect and offensive to fail to describe Murray as British. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.183.136.192 (talk • contribs) 2006-09-29T12:29:45 (UTC)

The source you cite alongside "British" makes no claim of the sort. Thanks/wangi 14:02, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I see what this is all about. This is a fan issue and not an encyclopedic one. How is a person who is Scottish not British? If a person is British, how do I know they are not English (as some people call Andrew)? Seems that calling him a Scottish tennis player is accurate and less ambiguous for encyclopedic reason than calling him British. --I already forgot 18:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's my question: What's wrong with the way he's being described currently? Is it really that hard to simply say that he is Scottish (in terms of nationality), but considered British for all international competitions (ATP and ITF--he was playing for GBR even as a junior)? --Flute138 01:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

There are plenty of references to his Scottishness throughout the article, including on the opening paragraph. So there is no ambiguity in describing him as British in the opening line. Indeed, Welsh and Scottish sportsmen and sportswomen who primarily represent Britain on an international level are referred to as British, whereas those who represent Wales or Scotland at football, for example, are referred to as Welsh or Scottish. It is FACTUALLY incorrect, as has been stated, to say that "Murray plays for Scotland." Note that other British tennis players are described as British, which is the way it should be.

Why is it when I look up List of British people I'm directed to List of Scots to find all sports figures listed as scottish? Once the changes are made to make A.M. british, he is then the only one listed as such. --I already forgot 15:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think The GB flag should be above the Scotland flag as Andy plays for GB more often. This is what Wikipedia is for...facts. User:Tommy23 1853, 21 January 2007

British is what english people call succesfull scottish people. Andy Murray is Scottish, that is his country, Britain is not a country.

• But the United Kingdom is a country and a citizen of the United Kingdom is described as British!!! So deal with it Jamandell (d69) 23:03, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

He's British whether he likes it or not. This is not a fan site and as such we are dealing only with facts. Scottish is NOT the nationality of someone from Scotland, British is. In fact Scottish as a "nationality" hasnt existed for probably three hundred years...along with Welsh and Engliish. As a Scot myself, when I look at my passport it says i'm of British nationality.Nothing about Scotland. The Scottish flag should be removed from the article and the UK flag left. His personal views on the matter can be left to the articles contents. Snowbound 22:38, 25 January 2007

I'm here neutral, so I have a question. Scotland is not listed as a county on ATP site, so why a Scottish flag ? I think that correct sentence would be: "Andy Murray is a Scottish professional tennis player from Great Britain" or somethnig similar, because he can't represent Scotland in world tennis, because Scotland is not a county on ATP or WTA. --Göran Smith 23:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a Scottish flag because the man is Scottish. I have no problem with the introduction, so long as it remains unambiguous. He is Scottish, but represents Great Britain, more than likely out of necessity, but he represents Britain nonetheless. It should also be noted that Andy's objection to being called "English" is in no way meant to disparage England. Had the media referred to Tim Henman as Scottish, Tim would be just as quick to correct them. Would this even be an issue if Andy was ranked 200th in the world, with no prospect for improvement? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Clydey (talk • contribs) 15:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

Andy Murray is a British tennis player who has represented both Great Britain and Scotland in tennis matches. This is how it should be written. Those who want to delete the fact that he is British clearly have a political agenda (SNP activists perhaps?). People should ask themselves what official nationality is he and what nationality is on the front of his passport? It is BRITISH, not SCOTTISH. Therefore he is a British tennis player who has represented both Great Britain and Scotland in tennis matches. I have changed the intro to represent this. RRJ 19:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

You are going against the consensus. Murray is a Scotsman who has played for Britain and Scotland, just as Hmenan is an Englishman who has represented England and Britain. 82.40.19.192 22:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Firstly to the anon IP address you get on alot better if you actually signed up for an account. You seem to know alot about consensus for someone who can't even be bothered to sign up.

Secondly in certain sport competitors represent the UK, others they represent the seperate nations. Tennis, like athletics and F1 the competitors represent the UK. This British Scottish debate only seems to come around when the said person is a Scot. For example: Lewis Hamilton, Tim Henman, Jason Gardener, Jamie Baulch, Iwan Thomas, Greg Rusedski, Christian Malcolm are all English or Welsh and are refered to as British yet David Coulthard, Liz McColgan, Andy Murray, Jamie Murray are refered to as Scots. Now all these people compete in sports I have mentioned before, so clearly the consensus is more to calling them British rather than Scotish, Enlgish or Welsh. JimmyMac82 11:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with JimmyMac82. Choose a standard for such articles, and stick to it. No-one should undermine Scottish nationalism, but is this the correct venue? There are hundreds of examples where the fact that someone is from Scotland is proposed as being more important than their nationality (which in law is British). Of note, the most prominent Scotsman of the moment, the UK prime minister does not have a mention of his "nationality", only what constituency he represents, and his origins. In the case of sportsman, I believe the same tact should be taken. i.e. In this case Andy Murray represents Great Britain on the ATP. I also propose, there also be a section for olympic, inter-union and other events where he represents Scotland. 76.20.84.128 23:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite of 2006 section

This is completely unencyclopedic now, having grown up as a list of tournaments as they happened. I suggest compressing them into the following, and will do so unless anyone objects Chrislintott 15:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Murray began the 2006 season with second round exits in two tournaments, followed by a first round loss to Juan Ignacio Chela in his first Australian Open appearance. The SAP open which followed brought him his first ATP title, as Murray beat two former world number 1's in the form of Andy Roddick and Lleyton Hewitt. He reached the quarter-finals in his next tournament, in Memphis, but was unable to continue his good form. He lost in the first round of six of the next nine tournaments he played in, including first round exits at the French Open and at Queen's Club. During this run, Murray unsuccessfully partnered Greg Rusedski in Great Britain's Davis Cup tie, after missing the singles through injury. Wimbledon saw a dramatic return to form, as Murray reached the fourth round of a Grand Slam for the first time, only to lose in straight sets to Marcos Baghdatis. Further success followed, as he reached the semi-finals and final of the next two tournaments he entered (the Hall of Fame Championships in Newport and the Legg Mason Classic in Washington, respectively). In between, he won a singles match against Andy Ram in the Davis Cup tie with Israel, the first time that Murray had successfully fought back to win a five-set match.

Murray's improved form continued into the autumn. He reached the semi-final of the Toronto Masters, losing to Richard Gasquet after surviving several close shaves which led to the questioning of his ability to close out games. In the next tournament, the Cincinnati Masters, his loss to Andy Roddick in the quarter-finals was overshadowed by his earlier defeat of world number 1, [[Roger Federer]. Murray was one of only two players to beat Federer in 2006, the other being Rafa Nadal. The final grand slam of the year, the US Open, saw Murray once again reach the fourth round, only to lose to the seeded Nikolay Davydenko in four sets. This was followed by his final Davis Cup appearance for the year, in which he won both singles rubbers in straight sets and lost the doubles en route to a British victory over the Ukraine, which ensured the team's continued presence in group 1 of the Europe/Africa zone for 2007.

The final set of tournaments in 2006 led to mixed results. The disappointment of losing to Tim Henman in the first round of the Thailand Open (where he had reached the final the year before) was alleviated somewhat by reaching the final of the doubles, partnered by his brother. At the Madrid Masters an impressive defeat of number 3 seed Ivan Ljubičić was followed by a loss to Novak Djokovic in the round of 16. In his final tournament of the year, the Paris Masters, Murray beat Chela, but lost in the next round to Dominik Hrbaty. At the end of the year, Murray was ranked 17th in the world, and was looking to break into the top 10 in 2007.

Infobox

Infobox contains data for Andy Murray as a tennis player on ATP tour, and there is no mention of Scotland as a country. I think people would know that Andy is Scottish, and not English from the first sentence: "Andrew "Andy" Murray (born 15 May 1987 in Glasgow), is a Scottish[4] tennis player, who has represented both Scotland[5] and Great Britain[6] in past matches. He has been noted for his frequent outbursts of passion and his natural talent." --Göran Smith 13:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

I have placed 'United Kingdom' above 'Scotland', just like 'United Kingdom' is placed above 'England' in Tim Henman's article. I think that is fair. Also, does the fact that Andy Murray is Scottish really need a citation? Hera52 21:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I reverted you edit... Really because you were removing a reference. From a purely hierarchical pov it makes sense to have SCO then UK, but in the end it's just dicking around. If a ref is required that he plays for the UK, then why not for Scotland - that's what those refs are showing - especially given that him playing for the UK is the standard assumption... Thanks/wangi 22:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Scotland needs a reference because in tennis in the UK players represent the UK not the seperate nations, so to clain Murray has represented Scotland looks abit weird, almost like claiming an American was representing his State rather than Country. For this reason UK should be above Scotland. JimmyMac82 22:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

In Auckland

In the article about Andy Murrays contreversy it was said that he played a Heineken open in Australia. Living in Auckland i know that the Heineken open is a New Zealand tournament and according to Atp.com Murray played there in 2006 as specified in the Article.

British

Andy Murray should be described as "British," as should all people who come from Great Britain.

Unfortunately, many people who come from Britain are usually described as "English," mainly by the people of the USA. Describing everyone as British would reduce this.

Furthermore, being Scottish automatically makes you British. In fact, describing someone as British is far better than calling them Scottish, as a Scottish person's home state is the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." Within that state, they live in Scotland. The same goes for English and Welsh people. In this way everything can be made clearer. Dewarw 16:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As I explained to you earlier, your entire argument is the very reason why Andy Murray should not be described as "British", because if he is from Scotland it is self-evident that he is also "British". Many, many people assume "English" when they see "British". The two terms are often used interchangeably, so I will continue to edit it until you do the same to every personality listed as "English", starting with Tim Henman. I find it curious that you did not even give Henman a second look. 82.40.19.192 17:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not threaten to start an edit war. You will be blocked from using Wikipedia if you do. Your comments are also ambiguous, I have never been on the Tim Henman page in my life! Please do not make claims like this. you mentioned English people. As I said before, I fully believe that players labelled English should be re labelled British, although I would need some help to do this. This would reduce people assuming English when they saw British. if you agree with me on this proposal, then please say. Thanks, Dewarw 17:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have now changed both Henman and Murray to British. Please note that Scotland is mentioned both in the text and in the side box (He plays for both Great Britain and Scotland. I hope that this is a fair compromise. If you continue to revert, then you will be given a blocking warning. Thank you, Dewarw 18:06, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Hold on, what authority do you have to decide what the facts are? You have not attempted to discuss this matter, rather just thrown your weight around. If you are in some way enpowered on this site what you are doing is an abuse of that power. Your job is to monitor pages, not push your own opinion, one that is not based on the facts.

Your opinion is not supported by facts and you have not answered one of the points I put to you. It takes two to conduct an edit war and you, sir, have no right to settle personal grievances with your own authority on this site. Point of fact, Andy Murray representing Scotland in the Aberdeen Cup is a viable citation. He represented Scotland because he is Scottish, and Tim Henman represented England because he is English. Furthermore, a "British" label is inconsistent with the rest of wikipedia. Simply editing Tim Henman is not enough to bolster your own argument.

There needs to be a much broader change, as Scotland is a nationality. That is why Scottish independence is an issue. Comparisons with individual American states is inaccurate. Michigan, for example, could not, would not, attempt to break off from the United States. Scotland has its own football team, its own rugby team. You are confusing British citizenship with ethnicity, not to mention ignoring Andy Murray's own wish to be referred to as Scottish. Should you give me a warning, all you are doing is highlighting your own lack of responsibility. 82.40.19.192 18:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Please stop the edit war or you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Thank you. Wrawed 18:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Hold on, I am not participating in an edit war. It is dewarw who is going not only against the general consensus, but is being inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia. I would like to you explain to me why I am being warned. Lay out to me why dewarw is right to incessantly edit and I am not. Should you fail to make a good argument, you should do the decent thing and go along with the general consensus.

What you are doing amounts to abuse of your own power. If I find a citation where Andy Murray explicitly refers to himself as "Scottish" will you accept that? 82.40.19.192 18:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have just noticed that Wrawed is an anagram of Dewarw. Are you using two different accounts to warn me? 82.40.19.192 18:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

He has no more authority in wiki than you or I and it looks if is he is a sock. I would suggest though, that you give yourself a bit more authority by editing under a user name. Rgds, Bill Reid | Talk 08:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I normally do, actually. I occasionally forget and only realise I have edited without signing in after I've done the editing. My regular username is "Clydey". I thought the same about him as you, Bill. He managed to slap a warning on my account somehow, though. It appears to have since been rescinded, but I can't be sure, so I'm a touch paranoid about editing Andy Murray's page again. 82.40.19.192 09:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I've listed Dewarw as a suspected sockpupeteer Lurker (said · done) 10:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

<outdent>Thank g*d I don't get involved in British vs Scottish stuff since I have my hands full as it is, BUT , I would refer all parties to wp:mosbio. What is his nationality? That, imho, is waht we should use. Also, what do reliable sources refer to him as?? Good luck :) --Tom 13:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"being Scottish automatically makes you British." - no it doesn't. One or two Scots are citizens of other countries for various reasons, some because they object to being classified as British. --MacRusgail 12:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Clean up of color commentary

The color commentary is very poetic and charming but really over the top. Sticking to the facts does this man and his article more of a servie. Who ever wrote this stuff is quite good with words but its not really needed here. There is a still alot of more to copy edit but I tried to hit the highlights. As far as nationality goes, I'll let you guys "hit" that one around :) Cheers! --Tom 15:03, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Proper consensus needed over nationality

Okay, this is getting out of hand. We need a proper vote, or debate to decide whether we refer to Murray as British or Scottish. This debate could also extend to other persons on Wikipedia.

A vote/debate is needed, because it keeps changing between the two. I have changed it in the past, but have now stopped because I do not believe in edit wars. Please, lets not have an edit war, lets have a proper discussion.

I for one think it should be British, so that all Great British people can just be referred to as one. This also reflects the way in which England, Scotland and Wales are united. Please do not use Welsh/Scottish Independence arguments, as they are off the topic. This debate is not about whether there should be a United England, Wales and Scotland or not. This is about clarifying Wikipedia and making it a better place for everyone.

Thanks, Dewarw 11:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC).

There is/was a debate on the issue at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (United Kingdom-related articles). The original proposal, that people from UK nations be referred to a "British" was rejected, due to a lack of consensus. Lurker (said · done) 13:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

He is a British citizen. When encyclodpedias list a person's country, they are refering to their sovereign state, and the UK is Andy's sovererign state. He should be describe as British in the opening line, especially as he's representing GB! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.17.35.194 (talk) 21:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)