Talk:Angeles City/Archive 3

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Links

Ok, im going to add a series of links on this page to extablish my case that a part of the article on Angeles should include a section on sex slavery....lets hope Mlshanks doesnt vandalise this as well.... http://www.preda.org/archives/research/csa/r00050802.html

http://www.catwinternational.org/factbook/philippines.php

http://www.preda.org/archives/2005/r05030201.html

http://www.grabeh.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-6983.html

http://www.indianngos.com/issue/child/sexual/statistics/statistics25.htm

Mlshanks,first of all, your only reference you previosly stated was a link to an adult sex site. second it was you who "first" removed my posts on this discussion board. It is also you that has been removing content from the artcile that is well referenced. Prostitution in the philipinnes is illegal, and as such, under the terms of the United Nations that makes it "sex slavery". You say no such thing is happening, but would you care to explain the following arrests?...*Inside The Brutal Sex Slavery Trade of Angeles

• Australian arrested on sex slavery in Angeles

As you also well know, the census is false, at no stage did the census include those trapped in sex slavery, nor did it include those from slums or other such things as the homeless. Its a farce. You yourself in your own post have admitted mass prostition in Angeles which is a crime under philipinne law, you admit it is a major center for sex tourists, as such it is valid to raise this in the article on Angeles. Angeles has a major center in child prostition and sex slavery, the references I have posted clearly show that, as such once again, wikipedia has a responsibilty for this to be added as part of the article. Instead of vandalising the article, why don't you let the moderaters make a desision on this. And I have also wrote to them on this matter. I should also point out that figures on child prostitution in Angeles is hard to be exact, because the organized crime that controls sex slavery in Angeles also controls the trade in other parts of the Philipinnes and that the children are shipped all over these places..as such the sex slaves in Angeles are transient, so no exact figure can be arrived at, as such the numbers vary on a daily basis.

Vandalism

I am constantly harrased by vandals on this page that constantly remove any additions i have added to this page on sex slavery in angeles. all additions are properly referenced including references from the United Nations, Britsh Broadcasting Commision, Philipinne Government Senators, Human Rights Organizations, etc.Ok,

I have started to add a section on "Human Slavery and Trafficking in Angeles". This is absolutly essential given the horrors of what is taking place in Angeles today. All the article is well cited from various recognized sources. Mostly I will uses sources from human rights organizations and will be inviting them to add more to the article as well. I will continue to update this article over time.

Whats needed here is a major section on the bruta;l prostitition trade in angeles including facts and figures. Another section is needed on the killing filds of Angeles where the dead bodoes of thousands of women and children killed by the gangs of Angeles are buries. Another section is needed on the corrupt police and government officials who support this shocking illegal prostitution trade.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]]).

angeles city is not a killings fields like cambodia or vietnam in early '70' prove it first before u write un article plsssssssssss... respect the people of angeles city.. samahan kapampangang sa america.....

MRS SUSAN BRYCE,, WHO TELL YOU THAN ANGELES CITY HAVE A KILLINGS FIELDS PROVE IT O.K .. WHO ARE U DO THIS IN ANGELES CITY WE KAPAMPANGANG PEOPLE OF ANGELES CITY WE DON'T LIKE U.. U ARE LIAR KNOW THAN ,GO TO ANGELES FIRST BEFORE U MAKE SAME ARTICLE LIKE THIS U KILLING THE PEOPLE OF ANGELES CITY...WHO ARE MRS SUSAN BRYCE???? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.52.112.70 (talk • contribs) 22:52, December 26, 2006 (UTC)

Supporting Links

I would like to bring the moderators attention to the following article..only 8 weeks old...Sunday Tribune Investigation September 24, 2006 By John Burke, Eoghan Rice ....http://www.preda.org/archives/research/cpr/stribune060924.html

This artcile clearly shows sex slavery and child prostitution is still happening in Angeles and is in fact growing!

Or this article, Sex Tourism Is Big Money for Pimps and Politicians by Fr. Shay Cullen Thursday, Mar. 03, 2005 ....http://qc.indymedia.org/news/2005/03/2736.php

Now, lets look at an article by The Government of Australia and Australian Law Reform Commission.... http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/alrc/publications/reform/reform67/ALRCR67CONFRONTINGSEXUALE.html This article states: ". When the Manila local government attempted to close down the sex industry in central Manila, many of the businesses moved to Angeles", now this supports my opinion that the article on Angeles history should show how the sex slavery trade moved from Manila to Angeles after the base was closed. Two: "Filipino population would regularly use the services of prostituted women and children. This is in addition to the masses of male tourists that flock to this growing international sex-capital."..Now, you notice how it says "growing" ! This supports my claim that Angeles is getting worse for sex slavery. Three: "Girls are quickly forced into prostitution". Now, if you are "Forced" then that is sex slavery! that is a crime!. Four: the article also states, "Corruption in the police force and among politicians is reported to be prevalent". Now this is the Australian Government and the Australian Law Reform Commission saying this!

Also, the article on Angeles should include its history, as such the history section Must include a section on the sex slavery industry during the 90`s after the military base pullout. With that said, it should also include a section on sex slavery during the military base lease.....http://www.catw-ap.org/pros.htm , now if you read this article, it clearly states, "WEDPRO found that of the total number of those in prostitution in Angeles City, 70 percent were in prostitution well before they were 18 years old".

I would also like to direct the moderators to look at the following article from "2003"...not the 90`s...which once again as the above article clearly shows the ongoing continuation of sex slavery in Angeles... http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/14/1063478066604.html

Or, this article dated....Thursday, December 28, 2006, the artcle states...."A police raid of cybersex dens in Angeles City in the Philippines late last year exposed a glimpse as to who some of the abusers are"..... http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35895

Heres an article By Kathy Marks in Angeles, Philippines 28 June 2004....Inside The Brutal Sex Slavery Trade of Angeles

Heres one from 2005, it reports of child prostitution in Angeles. It states, "Angeles City, two hours north of Metro Manila, is the home of the most organized sex industry in the Philippines. Thousands of sex tourists from all over the world go there to look for cheap sex, much of it with under age minors. Some go looking for children younger than 12. It is estimated that 60,000 children are exploited annually in this business" http://www.preda.org/archives/2005/r05030201.html

This one is on a Dutch tourist who kidnapped a child and held her prisoner in Angeles.... http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=5516&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

This article from 2004, shows an iside look at the gangs that run the sex slavery trade in Angeles.... http://www.preda.org/archives/2004/r04062801.html

Heres one from march 29, 2006....Sex industry throbs with tourism boom By Roderick T. dela Cruz.... http://www.manilastandardtoday.com/?page=business04_mar29_2006 , the article states "But the most notorious of them all is child prostitution, which involves either Internet pornography or actual sex. A DoT employee admits that child exploitation persists in Angeles City. According to the End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism (ECPAT), children have been targets of prey not only by pedophiles but also by those who are afraid of contracting HIV/AIDS from older women and therefore prefer children as sex partners.".

This article is of a British National being deported for prostituting children in Angeles.... http://www.inq7.net/globalnation/sec_new/2003/oct/31-05.htm

Here is one from 2004, it details how police smashed a paedophile cyberporn ring in Angeles.... http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20040404/ai_n12891047

Lets look at this article dated Sunday, April 30, 2006, from the Philippines leadinf newspaper, the Manila Times.... http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2006/apr/30/yehey/opinion/20060430opi3.html

Lets have a look at more arrests, (includes Angeles and Subic), you will notice the arrests go all the way back to 1982.... http://www.preda.org/campaedo.htm

Here is one from the Salvation Army, one of the most respected orhanizations in the world, and it states: "One of the most desperate areas is Angeles City, where it is estimated 150,000 girls work as prostitutes, some as young as six years old".... http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-issue/53AA2BA6043E361C80257185004AE3C9?opendocument&id=34A6BDBBDD01C4F080257185004AA335

Heres one on sex slavery in Angeles... http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20030907/ai_n12871889

Ive included this link from the Philippine news, it has a photo of little children being rescued from sex slavery in Angeles....its a particularly sad and upsetting photo... http://www.philnews.com/2005/va.html

This article states many facts including: "In June 2004, a British man was arrested after police allegedly found him in a hotel room in Angeles with a 14-year-old girl." and "Fields Avenue in Angeles, a seedy city north of Manila, is the center of the sex industry in the Philippines. Many bars and clubs employ underage girls. The city grew up around the huge U.S. Clark Air Base, and although the base closed in 1992, prostitution is still the only industry in town".... http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:_X2ZiNlUWUwJ:www.protectionproject.org/philippines.doc+dutch+arrested+angeles+philippines&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8

This article is on the arrest of An Australian who was prostituting little children in Angeles.... http://cpcabrisbane.org/Kasama/2003/V17n3/Preda.htm

This article from the Asia Pacific Post Newspaper States, "Angeles City alone, Santiago said, has been classified a cybersex and sex-tourism hotspot by the Philippines National Police since at least 10 dens have been busted there this year".... http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:wfy19-N1mHsJ:www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/402881910674ebab010674f5aaf11ef9.do.html+child+sex+tourism+angeles+philippines&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=13

This article states..."When six minors, two of them only 13 years old, were brought to the PREDA Children's Home a few months ago from Angeles city, 60 miles from here, with the help of PREDA and the International Justice Mission the children brought criminal charges against the bar owners- an American and an Australian and three of their pimps who prostituted them".... http://www.hrea.org/lists/child-rights/markup/msg00180.html

Now, i was in Angeles battling the sex slavery trade at this time, when the base closed a clear indication was given by the government that the sex slavery trade would be shut down. But, when former Mayor of Manila closed down the sex slavery trade in Ermita, the organized crime shiften their operations to Angeles. As such, as part of the history section, it should show how the sex slavery trade was re-established after the base close, and in fact a more brutal way.

And if the moderators on a side note want to know why its so difficult to put forward my case, have a look at what happens here in the Philippines to human rights workers...http://www.gabnet.org/campaigns/mediawatch/2006/ms04052006.html , i myself have been shot, stabbed, assaulted, see dozens of my co-workrs kiiled, threatened, paid off, I see major news networks afraid to write about Angeles because they live in fear of being bombed, killed, or having their family killed.

I feel i have clearly shown that there has been a massive ongoing sex slavery trade in Angeles through the many links i have posted. Iwill contact several Human Rights organizations and ask them to join in on this discussion, especially to provide current details, such as the 8 week old article above. I ask the moderators to continue this discussion and keep an open mind while I request Internation Welfare Agencies to join this talk. thanking you for your kind co-operationSusanbryce 12:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Susanbryce, I've taken the liberty of moving your above comment into its own section, so it can get individual attention. If this is a problem, please let me know, or feel free to move it back to its original position. I think this deserves to be in its own section though, so everyone can see your latest contribution and discuss it.

Currently, I lack the time to investigate your links, but I want to review them and see how well they support your assertions. It may be several days (perhaps a week) before I have the time to really sit down and work on this, but I'm interested in reviewing your work here to see what information it provides us.

I would also encourage other editors to review this in the meantime and contribute their ideas here, so we can come to a consensus on how to address this topic in the main article from a neutral point of view. -- Kesh 04:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

ThankYou Kesh, I appreciate your taking my contibutions seriously and taking the time for this ,matter to be discussed. Also, I was thinking Kesh, do you think in fact it might be a good idea for a new seperate page to be set up on sex slavery in Angeles, with a link from the angeles page to a new page on sex slavery in Angeles? I would also like to trace the history of sex slavery in Angeles from the when it first appeared during the Clark Air Military base, to when it and clark were destroyed during mount Pinatubo explosion, then how the trade re=established itself back in Angeles from Manila. How it has grown since then, what actions have been taken against it, include links to welfare agencies in Angeles battling the sex slavery trade, information on HIV in Angeles, rapes, death toll, etc. If I look around Wiki, I notice a lot of pages that deal with this on their own, and I feel maybe this is the best idea here. For the record, I dont want this to be a personal attack or in any way, but, with that said, sex slavery is a major and the most dopminant part of life in Angeles, and it must be a part of the history and current history of Angeles and be dealt with in wikipedia. In the meantime, I will continue adding links and information to support my case here, thankyou....Susanbryce 14:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Now, I also want to go back to that absurd census figure of 267,788 people in Angeles. When we look at the above links, we see a range of figures but forward on child prostition with figures as high as 300,000 child prostitutes in Angeles. These figures directly provide proof that the census is a complete farce and I request that some addition should be made that shows that the census in inacurite and in dispute because it fails to include those women and children held prisoner in the sex slavery and human trafficking trade.Susanbryce 13:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

In adding this suggested section to Angeles on sex slavery, I suggest it be titled:

---

Sex Slavery and Human Trafficking in Angeles----

Im also going to suggest it includes the following sentence...."Angeles is regarded as one of the most desperate areas in the world for child prostition. It is estimated 150,000 girls work as prostitutes, some as young as six years old." The reference for this comes from the Salvation army....http://www.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-issue/53AA2BA6043E361C80257185004AE3C9?opendocument&id=34A6BDBBDD01C4F080257185004AA335 Susanbryce 05:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Susanbryce (talk • contribs) 11:43, January 12, 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the additional info, Susan. I'm going to try and review all your links this coming Monday, when I have some free time. Also, please remember to sign your comments on the Talk page here by typing four ~ symbols at the end! -- Kesh 02:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Jack444 Most of this talk about sex slavery and child prostitution in Angeles City seems to be propaganda and a gross distortion. I have been to several cities in the Philippines including Angeles City.

These are my firsthand observations of Angeles City:

1) All the bargirls I talked with are willingly employed as a bargirl. Some of them like their job and others only do it for the money. Bargirls tend to tell customers stories to elicit sympathy in order to get bigger tips (my father is sick, the caribou died…). If a girl was being held against her will, a large percentage of the Western tourists would spirit her away and give her money to get home. 2) A bargirl can leave the bar and go home at any time. Their free time is unsupervised and they can come and go as they wish. Bargirls are frequently seen at the local mall before/after work shopping. If a girl saved her paycheck and tips… she could afford a bus ticket home in a few days. 3) The Angeles police enforce the regulation requiring all bar employees (bartenders, greeters, dancers, and guest relations officers) be 18 or older. Bars that fail to obey this regulation have been shut down and the owners and or supervisors jailed. 4) Foreign owned bars are professionally run and meticulously ensure all employees are over 18 years old. 5) A bargirl can refuse the advances of a customer (the girls are not even required to talk to a customer if they do not wish). 6) Most of the bargirls earn substantially more in a bar than alternative employment pays. 7) It is not unusual for a bargirl and a customer to form a relationship and setup house… or get married. 8) Almost all of the bargirls own cell phones and could call home, call a friendly customer, or the police at any time for help. 9) Tourists caught with underage girls (freelancers who hang around side streets near the “entertainment district”) are usually arrested by the police. 10) I have never seen a bargirl with a bruise or such injury. 11) I have never seen or heard of a 6 year-old prostitute as claimed in one of the articles above.

Other comments: 1) Voluntarily employed prostitutes who are free to come and go as they please cannot be categorized as “sex slaves”. Have some respect for the definition of the word slave. 2) Feminist organizations, activist, and charities are selling something just like any other business. Do you believe everything a salesman tells you? Think for yourself and read critically. 3) When feminists or activists do not get the response they like, they tend to start exaggerating and fabricating… just like any desperate salesman. Jack 4444 23:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Everything you've posted, Jack, is personal experience which is original research. We can't use that in determining what goes into the article. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to review those links on Monday, so it'll be longer before I can determine what information Susan provided would fit into the article.

I'm a neutral party who is only interested in helping resolve this dispute over the inclusion of "sex slavery" information in the article. Believe me, I'm going to be cautious about what (if anything) about this subject is integrated to the article. However, if verifiable and notable claims about the subject are found, I'll include it in the article in as neutral a manner as possible. Otherwise, it stays out.

As a side note, please do not disparage people or organizations as you did in Other comments. Painting with a broad brush doesn't really help us here. -- Kesh 23:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

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```Jack

Kesh - thanks for looking at what I wrote. My comments about how organizations and interested parties behave was not intended to be disparaging, it was just common sense recognition of human and organizational behavior. If General Motors is not selling cars because competitors have a better product, they will hype various advertisements and bend the truth in order to entice (trick) customers into showrooms. You will never hear Exxon say they do not want to sell you more gas, and you will never hear the United Way say “everything is okay and we do not need anymore donations”. Organizations are a lot like living entities and will do a wide variety of things in order to grow and flourish. Keep in mind while you are doing your evaluations, that the organizations publishing negative information about Angeles City have a vested interest in problems existing. These organizations trying to attract donations – and horror stories attract more donations.

Various organizations cannot stand the fact that women are voluntarily seeking employment as prostitutes and men are voluntarily purchasing these services.

Now about the facts: The Salvation Army article posted above claims there are 150,000 prostitutes working in Angeles City. Another part of the article said prostitutes are forced to see 100 customers a week.

I looked at the official provincial website of Pampanga, under the “People” pull-down menu (http://www.pampangacapitol.com/pampanga.html) and they say the population of Angeles City is 280,000 people. How can a mid-sized industrial city with a diverse economy including manufacturing, agriculture, food processing, and tourism have 150,000 prostitutes? Furthermore, the tourist bar district in Angeles City is not very big and located on one strip Field/Perimeter. If there were 100 bars located there (an estimate on the high-side), each bar would need to employ 1,500 prostitutes, which is physically impossible even if they had three shifts per day because the average bar is not very big.

Let’s do some simple arithmetic to get a feel for the numbers claimed by the Salvation Army: 150,000 prostitutes x 100 customers serviced per week = 15,000,000 customer visits per week. Assuming a middle-aged man can have sex 2 times per day (which is a generous estimate), or 14 times per week on average, you would need 1,071,429 sex tourists patronizing Angeles City on any given week to keep that number of prostitutes employed at the claimed workload. Now let’s assume the average tourist takes a two week vacation; that would give us a tourist turnover of 26 = (52 weeks in a year divided by 2 week vacations). Now for the grand total number of tourists needed to validate the Salvation Army’s “facts”… 1.07 million tourists with a turnover factor of 26 which gives us 27,857,143 tourists.

Now let’s look at the tourism statistics from the Philippine government website (http://www.tourism.gov.ph/dot/downloads.asp?file=summarybyprovince2.XLS). In 2005 584,778 foreign tourists visited the Philippines in total, and 76,133 visited the entire province of Pampaga. In the unlikely event every tourist visiting Pampanga went to Angeles City and visited the girlie bars, we would have a gap of 27,781,010 tourists. Based on my quick analysis, at best, the Salvation Army “facts” are off by a factor of 366.

For the Salvation Army numbers to fit the number of available tourists, the average tourist would be required to have sex 5,123 times per week (15 million customer visits divided by 2,928 available customers). The available tourist figure was arrived at by dividing the total number of tourists visiting Pampanga by the turnover rate of 26 (76,133/26).

Another way to look at the numbers is to take the total number of tourists per year visiting Pampanga (assuming they all go to Angeles for the girlie bars, which is not likely) and divide by the two week average vacation and this will give us 76,133 / (52/2) = 2,928 available tourists at any given time. Now if we take the total number of prostitutes claimed by the Salvation Army to be working in Angeles and divide that by the number of available tourists we get (150,000 prostitutes divided by 2,928 available customers) = 51. This means there is a ratio of 51 prostitutes to each customer. Assuming the average customer hires two prostitutes a day, which is overly generous, the maximum possible available tourists would only hire 41,748 girls per week (2,982 x 14). These simple arithmetic calculations show that even when we push the numbers (all tourists in Pampanga go to the girlie bars in Angeles, and each tourist hires two girls a day), the Salvation Army claims simply do not work because the average prostitute would only be hired once every 3.6 weeks (150,000 / 41,748). How could a prostitute earn a living if she only works once a month? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jack 4444 (talk • contribs) 00:57, January 21, 2007 (UTC)

Again, you're delving into original research here. Give me time to read the links provided, as those are how we base verifiability on Wikipedia. -- Kesh 02:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The customers of the sex slavery trade in Angeles are both Foreign and local. According to Wikipedia there are over 80 million people living in the Philippines of which I would assume there are at least 20 million adult males....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines , also the Foreigners in the Philippines are there not just only on tourist visas, but also there on residency visas, retirement visas, business visas, investment visas, work visas, etc, as such none of the foreigners on these visas are included in the tourist figures.Susanbryce 13:02, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Kesh, im not too sure if you have been busy, but im hoping we could move forward on this article please when you have a chance, regards, Susan.Susanbryce 13:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I had to re-add the see also link to Human Trafficking in Angeles which had previously been added to this page, but someone has since removed it, so I put it back.Susanbryce 08:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Unwarranted deletion of reference to prostitution

A short paragraph in the History section referring to prostitution in Angeles City has been deleted twice in the last 24 hours by anonymous user 210.4.102.229. This deletion is unwarranted. The Balibago area has long been known as the red-light district of Angeles city, so the fact that prostitution occurs there is no secret. The extent of child prostitution and human trafficking is less well publicized, but in my opinion deserves to be. The facts are well documented and are, again in my opinion, difficult to refute. I think it should remain included in the Angeles City article.

It is impolite to delete material without discussion. If repeated it is regarded as vandalism, and if deletions persist can result in the editor being blocked. I would much rather it doesn't come to that. Please discuss your concerns here and allow a consensus to be formed. Phaedrus86 04:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems the article has been vandalized again with an anonymous user removing the short paragraph in the History section referring to prostitution in Angeles CitySusanbryce 13:00, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Jack is absolutely correct. As I am married to a Kampampangan, I have been to the area many times, though I can not claim intimate knowledge of the bars. The Angeles foreign bars cater to Australian, German, other European, American, Japanese and a few Filipinos. The foreign bars are under a microscope of the police and local authorities. All the women employed at the bars are required to have their ID on them at all times. They flock to the area for jobs as they are treated well, they hope for marriage to a foreigner, and they make more money than any other occupation they can get. Of course, the 'good' girls (educated, and usually better off) do not work in the bars, but for many it is a welcome escape from a community oriented society that largely punishes any girl who loses her virginity prior to marriage (especially if she has a pregnancy outside of marriage). There is also an attraction for non-college educated women looking for more than planting and wading in rice paddies. On the other hand, the Filipino bars found around the country, in any city, treat the women badly. The women in Filipino bars have no status, and sometimes may be kidnapped or held in prostitution against their will. The foreign bars on the other hand, as I said, are heavily controlled and regulated. Any bars found employing underage women are closed (usually closed under trumped up charges by fired employees or for refusing to pay bribes). I do not know where Ms Bryce gets her information, but the links she provides are almost all of suspect articles originating with stories filed in the Philippines (a standard of journalism in the Philippines is to write English articles when paid, and provided the copy). Some news media articles have filed sensationalist pieces on Angeles totally unrelated to fact, but catering to a group that wishes to demonize the tourists frequenting such bars. It would be difficult to find articles describing the actual situation in Angeles foreign bars as that would be insulting to the Philippine society, government, and run counter to the very leftist vein of most media in the Philippines. Of course, an article on the non-foreign, Filipino bars would be totally impossible. I can say (though I know that first person experience is worthless here, while 'verifiable' suspect sources are ok) that Jack's comments are on target and reasonable. I do not know how a verifiable source can be provided, but perhaps my next trip to visit my in-laws, I will pay for one. I do know that for anyone who has visited the area, these articles are obviously fabricated with no research beyond a talk with one of the activists doing this for a living, and with zero understanding of the Philippine culture and society. Eli 14:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)Eli

What Can We Do?

It seems that any factual presentation of the tourist areas in Angeles City is hampered by the rules that wiki runs on. No Original Research means that even though I have 2 decades of experience in the Philippines, my knowledge is useless on wiki. Verifiability is next to impossible in regards to a subject that almost nobody cares to officially document. I'd like to know how we can have a useful article that is not blown up with sensational OMG "facts" such as Susan Bryce likes to give us.

I personally just walked down Fields Ave in Angeles City less than 2 hours ago from lunch, and didn't see a single bar guarded by armed men or surrounded by razor wire. Generally, shotgun and sub-machinegun armed men are only on the streets during martial law. Been a long time since that happened in Philippines. The local police also put out armed officers on street corners when military exercises bring in hundreds of foreign troops. That is also a rare occurrence.

But damn, the above is personally observed things and worthless to us isn't it? What now? CorwinSF 07:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Please stop saying that one of the main industries remains prostitution.

It's absolutely horrible to say that one of the main industries in Angeles City remains prostitution. I have lived in this city for 30 years and I've seen how the city rose from ashes after the Pinatubo eruption and it's so unfair to say this statement. I'm honest to say that there's only one area in this city called "Fields Avenue" where prostitution is rampant but hey, this is just one stretch of a street so no one can generally state that prostitution indeed remains an industry here. We know the fact that there's prostitution in every city in the Philippines so let's be fair in adding this statement as it is destroys the city's reputation of doing it's best to maintain the economic status it's now enjoying. Please do come to the city and observe and by then, you can compare how prostitution can be worse elsewhere. 75.180.219.137 21:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC) FairGuy—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 21:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Every city has prostitution

Every city has prostitution, indeed. To say that Angeles is a center of prostitution is a hyperbolic statement. One needs to live in this booming city before anyone can make a horrific statement as such. Let's stop generalizing this as the city is bigger than what anyone thinks and to stigmatize is such a biased thing to do. Why not go to Pasay, Cebu, Mindoro, Laguna and other key cities in the Philippines and by there, you'll discover that prostitution can even be worse elsewhere in the Philippines. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 02:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

I dispute that it is a hyperbolic statement. Not every city gets named specifically as being a center for it. Have a look at the references to Human trafficking in Angeles City to articles including BBC News and an Australian Parliamentary Inquiry report which specifically name Angeles City. Phaedrus86 07:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It is laughable that you cite those two reports. The BBC News report was immediately revealed as a media event for a 'women's group' in Britain, and subsequently disproved in Philippine media (unfortunately, mostly TV and Tagalog) and not supported by any investigative reporting or facts. It was a sensationalist piece that did not stand up to scrutiny. The Australian Parliamentary Inquiry was only marginally better and perhaps you would like to cite the follow-on reports? Ah, I thought not.

Everyone has the right to make write-ups regarding one town or city but have they lived in the city where I lived for 30 years??? Do reside in the city first before you come up with an impartial judgment. The problem with the media is that they're creating a media hype trying to exaggerrate things and the only bottom point is to destroy the good reputation the city is trying to maintain to finally eliminate the bad impression people may have on it.

Someone has once again removed the wording and links about prostitution put there by the mods, i tried to re-add it as best I could, but i cant get the code right so just did the best I could, thanks.Susanbryce 15:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

What you up to putting back the said paragraph. You merely rely on the negative things you hear about the city. Prostitution in the city is just situated along one short stretch of street here we call "Fields Avenue" and this we call the red-light district. Funny thing is this area is less than a percent of the entire city. To put a generalized statement that Angeles City is a center of prostitution is exaggerrated, horrible and biased. Please be fair enough to this entry just as you have in your entries in the key cities of the Philippines like Pasay, Cebu, Manila, Laguna and Olongapo where prostitution is also rampant. 75.180.219.137 FairGuy

It is well documented. This is an encyclopedia. Please read the Wikipedia policy on attribution which states Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. We assemble well documented facts. If you have citations of credible sources which demonstrate that Angeles is not as described, then please present them and we will all learn, but please do not provide your own opinions or bias - that helps nobody. Phaedrus86 21:22, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

But then again, would you regard that all documentations in either the form of an article in a newspaper or features on television for real? These are just blown out of proportion. 260,000 people live in this thriving city and I assure you that 99.9% of these don't work in the category you call "prostitution." In fact but no offense meant, bar-girls working here come from Cebu, Bicol and Ilocos regions in the Philippines and what you're adding up in this entry only goes to show how narrow-minded people can be to draw quick judgment on this city. You're only trying to make it appear that the city is doomed and immoral. What I'm saying isn't a subjective statement as what you get are impartial observations coming from an adult who have lived in this city since birth.

But you have no credible sources to back you up, so as I say, opinions don't count for much on Wikipedia. Phaedrus86 08:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Phaedrus86, are we able to add the link on this article to the article on human trafficking and sex slavery in Angeles? It is connected, and would appreciate it if you approve.Susanbryce 08:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It already has a link to it. The word "known" in the sentence on prostitution is currently a wikilink to Human trafficking in Angeles City". It is not appropriate to use an external link to an internal Wikipedia article. You can make any text a wikilink to a Wikipedia article - see Wikipedia:How to edit a page#Links and URLs. Phaedrus86 10:43, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Phaedrus86, ok, I re-added the two supporting links to the end of that sentence that were originaly put there as support links.Susanbryce 10:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Phaedrus86, once again the refernce to prostitution has been removed, may I suggest its time to restrict this article to registered users?Susanbryce 23:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Only admins can do that and I am not an admin. Phaedrus86 07:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the article has once again been vandalized by User:75.180.219.137, this is the 4th time now this user has vandalized the article. Ill put the info up once again, but how do I make a submission to the moderators that the article needs to be protected from the user?

Children in Jail

Id like to suggest to the moderators an additional section to be added to the article on Angeles. Angeles has enourmous problems and massive human rights violations as we already know from the sex slavery and human trafficking and organized crime. But another major issue in the city that is also gaining international attention is children in jail in the city. Here are some links and info on the situation:http://www.preda.org/work/child%20rescue/minreport.html

ANGELES DISTRICT JAIL, PAMPANGA PROVINCE

GENERAL CONDITIONS FOR MINORS

- Minors in Angeles Jail are detained in a small (3 meters by 7 meters approx) unventilated concrete cell. There is no window in the cell, and the minors have no access to an electric fan which many of the adult cells have and which is necessary in the constant oppressive heat.

- The minor's cell is in a block containing over a hundred convicted adult prisoners. During the day there is free access for all prisoners (including the minors) to mix freely throughout the block.

- The same cell is always used to house male minors regardless of the number in the jail. Reports from adult inmates indicate that the same cell was used for up to 15 minors at a time. The maximum the Preda Jail Monitoring Team has seen in the cell is eight minors.

- There is no bedding or basic sanitary items supplied by the jail. There is a separated concrete cubicle in the corner of the cell with a toilet. The children are not given any change of clothes, and commonly wear rags.

- Recently there have been reports of a Hepatitis and TB epidemic in the Jail.

- The children have a maximum one-hour a day of exercise. They have to request this each day. They can then have access to a small basketball hoop in the yard. The minors are allowed five hours a day to walk freely around the adult block, and mingle freely with the convicted adult detainees.

- There is no mental stimuli of any kind provided for the children.

- The food budget per child/per day is 30 Pesos (equivalent to US .55 Cents a day). The children Preda talked to reported being underfed and hungry.

- There is little effort made to rehabilitate the minors who report visits from a social worker on average less than once a month.

- Conditions in the jail may amount to torture, inhuman, degrading treatment of the

Here is another link on the problem from Amnesty.... minors.http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engasa350072003

It is a major problem, it is the subject of international media and human rights group, and I feel in keeping with wikipedia, it has a right to be added to the article, looking for some feedback here, kind regards, Susan.Susanbryce 09:05, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Heres some more info on the children in jail....http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/wgad/9-2002.html

According to the information submitted to the Working Group by the source, Manuel Flores (10 years of age) and Felix Cusipag (12 years of age) have been detained at Angeles District Jail, Angeles City, for two months without charges, legal counsel or any regard for their legal rights. No arrest warrants were issued at the time of their arrest and no court order was given for their detention.The source further reports that none of these children has been provided with competent legal counsel, as required by Philippine law.

The horros of Angeles and the treatment of children in Angeles is an international disgrace. With that said, ill move forward and prepare a section on this atrocity and post it here for feedbackSusanbryce 23:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Funny!!! This also happens in other cities in the Philippines. Your're blowing the news out of proportion to make it look like Angeles is indeed a center of prostitution. I hope you get to live in the country, get to see the condition of every city her, open your eyes and then you'd see what my point is. We hope that Wikipedia would be "fair enough" about this.

Please stop messing the article on Angeles.

Please stop messing the article on Angeles. Another topic was added about jail in the city, which apparently has nothing good to do about the entry. We really don't know who keeps on messing it up. If you guys don't have anything good to do to help or any relevant things to add to improve this article, you might as well leave it that way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 23:52, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Prostitution as the main industry?!?

Another line was added to the economy of the city. Who in his right mind would state this? Is there such an article he can vouch for to say that prostitution as the main industry? I advise anyone to inquire at the office of the city mayor to get proof of such an insignificant and false allegation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 00:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

User 75.180.219.137, Stop removing information off the article that you have no right to do. If you do not agree with something, you must first put forward your case here and the Editors will decide, not you! You must support your case with researched facts from reliable sources. You do not own this site or the article, so please obey the rules here. this discussion on sex slavery has been going on for a long time here, and the Editors approved. If you do not agree, then please put forward your case in the discussion area and let the editors decide, and in the meantime stop removing information from the article.Susanbryce 05:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If you believe that sex slavery is going on in this thriving city, then why not put the same situation in other entries of cities where prostitution is also rampant? Don't you think that would be fair for everyone. Susan, I've been everywhere in the Philippines and there are much cities far worse than Angeles but have they attempted adding prostitution in their entries? The answer is N-O because it's not gonna help the article at all. I'm a concerned citizen of Angeles and there are a number people doing their means to help alleviate this condition in this city.

Las Vegas is a regarded as the "Sin City" but has it ever been mentioned that prostitution is rampant there? Same with Manila, Pasay and Cebu, was there a topic in their entries to tell more of it?

Concur that any similar statement requires a citation. Addhoc 13:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the following statement.... Since the early days of Clark Air Base, Angeles City has become known as a centre for prostitution. This industry increased greatly after the end of World War II.

....was originally put there by the Editor, not me, see above. It was put there after extensive discussion on this subject, see above. If you dont agree, then argue your case here instead of just removing the information. Second, why are you talking about las vegas, manila, etc. this is an article on Angeles. Third, why remove the section on "children in jail", this is not connected to the sex slavery trade, it is a different issue, well cited, and has every right to be there. If you believe it to be wrong, then cite your evidence here! why remove the section on welfare groups in angeles, if you believe this to be wrong, then cite your evidence here! Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, its here to reoprt the facts, not personal opinion, when one looks at Wiki, we notice, it reports on the genodice in Cambodia during pol pot, or the genocide in Uganda during Idi Amin, or the genocide of the Jews during Adolf Hitler, is wikipedia going to remove all that because some people dont agree? Once again, if you dont agree, its up to you to argue your case using well cited sources..something you have failed to do. An ivestigation here states clearly..."The city grew up around the huge US Clark Air Base and, although the base closed in 1992, prostitution is still the only industry in town" http://www.preda.org/archives/2004/r04062801.html

This is an encyclopedia. Please read the Wikipedia policy on attribution which states Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. We assemble well documented facts. If you have citations of credible sources which demonstrate that Angeles is not as described, then please present them and we will all learn, but please do not provide your own opinions or bias - that helps nobody. Once again, I repeat, cite your sources here! so far all you have done is give personal opinion..so i repeat, cite your sources to argue your case instead of removing anything you personally dont like! Susanbryce 13:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Have a look at WP:V, WP:RS & WP:A:

• Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources.
• Editors adding new material should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor.
• The obligation to provide a reliable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not with those seeking to remove it.

Addhoc 14:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I have cited my sources on dozens on times including bbc, united nations, amnesty international, preda, australian government to namr just a few. The editor has already reviewed and approved... here is hios statement from above on the prostitution link.... " A short paragraph in the History section referring to prostitution in Angeles City has been deleted twice in the last 24 hours by anonymous user 210.4.102.229. This deletion is unwarranted. The Balibago area has long been known as the red-light district of Angeles city, so the fact that prostitution occurs there is no secret. The extent of child prostitution and human trafficking is less well publicized, but in my opinion deserves to be. The facts are well documented and are, again in my opinion, difficult to refute. I think it should remain included in the Angeles City article.

It is impolite to delete material without discussion. If repeated it is regarded as vandalism, and if deletions persist can result in the editor being blocked. I would much rather it doesn't come to that. Please discuss your concerns here and allow a consensus to be formed. Phaedrus86 04:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Now, it has been reviewed and approved, it quotes reliable sources, so on that basis it has a right to be here, if people disagree they are also obliged to argue their case.Susanbryce 14:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yup, I concur that sourced content shouldn't be removed. Also, requesting sources first is obviously more considerate. However, removing unsourced content isn't vandalism. Addhoc 14:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanking you kindly for your reply Addhoc, im sorry, i think what happened was that sources were originally there, but in the continued debate, with things being constantly added and removed, some sources were not correctly readded. Im always happy to discuss this subject in a friendly manner and arrive at a consensus of opinion here, something which I thought we had previously been done. With that said, im always happy to find a middle ground, kind regards, Susan Bryce.Susanbryce 14:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Children in jail? Why add it?

What we're disputing here is the prostitution in Angeles, which just like in any other progressive city, is rampant. OK let's agree upon that it be added. But then, another entry about children in jail is being added. It is insignificant. Why are you guys trying to mess this entry up? It used to be not included before. Even if there's a link to this, why do we have to place it when, in fact, being a citizen of this city, I'm not even aware of it. Please be considerate and fair enough as we, the people of Angeles, are truly affected by this news which is somehow fabricated and exaggerrated. It destroys the city's reputation of fighting prostitution. I hope that when you add something nasty, you add something what good the city offers as well. Be impartial enough to do so. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 23:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

Once again 75.180.219.137 you have vandalized the article. If your feel any information here is not correct, present your case, show us your citations and sources of information, this you still not have done. Present your facts and lets the editors decide on your case.This is an encyclopedia. Please read the Wikipedia policy on attribution which states Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. We assemble well documented facts. If you have citations of credible sources which demonstrate that Angeles is not as described, then please present them and we will all learn, but please do not provide your own opinions or bias - that helps nobody. Once again, I repeat, cite your sources here! so far all you have done is give personal opinion. so i repeat, cite your sources to argue your case instead of removing anything you personally dont like! In the meantime, stop vandalizing the article. Susanbryce 13:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, what I present is not an opinion, it is an "objective and impartial" observation as I have lived in this city since birth. Do you know how it feels when someone you don't know ran into you and tell you "you're a prostitute because you live in Angeles." Respect our city just as you want to be respected the same way. To state that "Angles is a center of prostitution" is demoralizing. But to add another article about jail issue is more than enough to insult and degrade our citizens. Again, what I'm saying here is not a personal opinion and one doesn't have to document it so just to prove you that it's a fact.

But you are not in Angeles, your in the United States... My IP address: 75.180.219.137 (copy) IP country: United States IP Address state: IP Address city: IP latitude: 38.000000 IP longitude: -97.000000 isp: Road Runner organization: Road Runner If your feel any information here is not correct, present your case, show us your citations and sources of information, this you still not have done. Present your facts and lets the editors decide on your case.This is an encyclopedia. Please read the Wikipedia policy on attribution which states Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. We assemble well documented facts. If you have citations of credible sources which demonstrate that Angeles is not as described, then please present them and we will all learn, but please do not provide your own opinions or bias - that helps nobody. Once again, I repeat, cite your sources here! so far all you have done is give personal opinion.Susanbryce 13:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It has occured to me that some people are associating the former US military base with prostitution, and in some ways that was true, But, I feel we should also add a section to the article that it created thousands of very good jobs both directly and indirectly, it provided much needed foriegn aid, charity, education, and pumped an enormous amount of money in Angeles, so im thinking ill come up with some citations and hopefully we can look at adding a section on that.Susanbryce 13:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The topic "children in jail" was added before but then was deleted right away. Now, why add it again? Would it help improve the article? If you're doing this, then do it with other entries as well where prostitution and human traficking is much worse than Angeles. Susan, I just arrived here in the US last month for a vacation. But I was born and still a true-blooded Kapampanga. Stop insulting our constituents. We're doing our best to uplift the economy and lives of the people there.

Ok, im prepared to find some consensus here, ill leave out the children in jail section, BUT, the section on welfare groups MUST stay! no negotiation on that, it has every right to be there, they do a great job under very difficult conditions and they should be appluaded for their work. And i really cannot understand why anyone would want that removed unless they are supporters of child prostitution. The article lists barangays and famous people, so it can certainly list welfare groups and their good work in the community. Now please find some consensus here, in the meantime I also suggest you read the rules on wikipedia, Susanbryce 12:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not get your point why you should point it (welfare groups) again when, in fact, it wasn't here at all prior to the deletion of all absurd sections like children in jail, which obviously is happening (even far worse) around the Philippines. I don't get your thinking as well why you should be giving us (advocates of the city's economy) a condition that should the "welfare groups" be removed, you'll be authorized to put back the section on the "children in jail." I and the rest of the citizens of Angeles are, in every way, in a lose-lose situation as this terribly destroys our dignity. Susan, you don't know what it feels like to be insulted to be given a 'stigma,' especially when the city you live in is being called a sin city. You apparently don't see how we do our best to uplift the lives of the people in our city. Granting that you place the "welfare groups" section back which you feel should be applauded, it would STILL appear that the city is nothing but a prostitute-infested place. You're emphasizing that it's good to know this but in reality, it's not helping us in every way. I hope you'd be sensitive enough to remove this once and for all. It's not used to be in this entry before, so why add it now?

Should we also stay quite about the holocaust? should we stay quite about what pol pot did? should we stay quite every time there is an atrocity in the world? staying quite and saying nothing only serves to prtect the pedophiles and the child sex slavery industry in angeles. we have suffered enough through decades of this atrocity. the city hall is completely under the control of these gangs. the only way this will be shut down is through world media attention, time and time again it is world media attention that has solved the worlds worst attrocities. and every day, right around the world there are more news articles, documenteries and activists exposing the atrocities of Angeles, and that international media coverage is going to get worse, and it will stay there in history, so you would be much better to spend your time writing the the city hall and the president putting pressure on them to shut down the sex slavery in Angeles, because the longer it continues the more worldwide media attention on angeles, and it is you that is doing a diservice to our people. how many more children must be raped and killed while people say nothing. these charities and the work they are doing has saved the lives of thousands! they are the real heros of angeles. they work has been commended all over the world, including nobel peace prize nominations. as the saying goes: "Evil men prosper when good men do nothing".Susanbryce 10:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Then I commend you for that, Susan. But then again, you need to rephrase them in such a way that it won't look like that Angeles has nothing to offer but prostitution. You didn't say anything good about the city, do you? Now I want you do some research to place the city in good light. I hope it's not too much to ask from us citizens of Angeles. We'll wait for that.

This article has been hit by vandals again in what is obviosly a concerted campaign here, may I suggest its time to restrict acces to the article to registered users plsSusanbryce 16:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

See what I've told you, Susan? People of Angeles would still vehemently deny the one you added because they konow better than you do. You're not a local of the city so to say horrible things about our city is totally absurd and it goes to show how persistent you are to destroy Angeles. Now, if you want people to stop editing this entry, which truly affets us, be SENSITIVE enough to place facts in such a way not to hurt anyone's feelings. So come up with citations or good things to say about our city and adding a section on that would be much much better. Again, we are waiting for that.

This article has been hit by vandals again in what is obviosly a concerted campaign here, may I suggest its time to restrict acces to the article to registered users plsSusanbryce 18:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Ill apply for a tempory page protection I think while the matter of vandalism on this article is resovled.Susanbryce 18:25, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

What are you up to anyway, Susan? You're not a local resident of Angeles at all. So who cares what you're putting on this entry? Tell us at once what you really want? You seem not to answer a simple question. If all you care is to destroy our city, then let us know at once so we'll shut our mouth once and for all. Please make a clean-up on this entry, otherwise, not only the people of Angeles, but the entire Philippines would hate you for that. Please reply so we'd have a better consensus as to how make this entry much better and beneficial for all.

User 75.180.219.137 continues to engage in mass vandalism of this page, and has been doing so fpr a number of days, it may be necessary to block their ip address in the United StatesSusanbryce 18:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't be so rude, Susan. Blocking anyone here is such an unnecessary thing to do. Being an educated person, I call for a consensus first. Being a citizen of Angeles, I am truly demoralized by what you're adding in this entry. That's all I want you to know and having said that, we want you to make a clean-up on this entry as we find it degrading and a big insult to us.

Ill request another third party to make a desicion on this problem if others users agree to abide by the Final outcome of the dispute process? Although this matter has already been twice resolved before by a third party editor, the vandalism continues, so, once again, ill file a request for a third party editor to rule on this dispute if all other partys agree? In the meabtime, Stop vandalizing the article till the Third Party editor decides and I give my undertaking and promise to abide by what the Editor Finally rules, ok?Susanbryce 19:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

here is the disputed section we need ruled on by a third party editor

"==Welfare Groups== There are more welfare groups and Human Rights Moniters in Angeles then anywhere else in the Philippines. This is due to the massive problems of the sex slave industry in Angeles. Preda has been actively involved in Angeles for numerous years. The intervention of Preda into the Mango business over the past years has helped. The Salvation Army set up office there in 2005 and have been active in helping the victims of sex slavery as well as the homeless. Another charity group, ReachOut Foundation International, with funding from USAID, PATH, and FHI launched a comprehensive AIDS/STD prevention program targeting the brothel-based female sex workers and their partners in this slum community. Other women’s organizations include Women’s Legal Bureau, Women’s Crisis Center, Women’s Health Care Foundation, Conspectus, Kalayaan); the Nagkakaisang Kababaihan ng Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative (NKAC, or United Women of Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative) in Angeles City. Fr. Shay Cullen, a children’s rights advocate and three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee has spent 37 years of service helping the children of the Philippines and in particular Angeles. The Women’s Health Care Foundation, WEDPRO sponsors a clinic in Angeles City"

I put this here so the editor who will resolve this dispute can be sure of the exact debate.Susanbryce 20:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Susan, I want you to know that putting such an "insulting" remark/topic would only mean how you disrespect us, Angeles citizens, and to generalize our city as a "center for prostitution" would say it all. I call not to allow any prejudism rules here in Wikipedia.

Susan, you are also in VA, and much of what you put in the article could be construed as propaganda or vandalism. You are not in the Philippines. You are not in Angeles.

The current content would sure STOP this dispute once and for all!

The current content would sure STOP this dispute once and for all! No children in jail, center for prostitution, and welfare groups would pacify everyone now. Everyone needs to know that being citizens of Angeles hurt us the more to hear such stigmatizing statements against our town. We are humans with emotions who you're dealing with. Please respect us the way you want to be respected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 20:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Use 75.180.219.137 from the united states continues to vandalize the article, this mattere has twice before been resolved by senior editors but the user refuses to accept their abitration, I once again request another Editor and the has once again stated that they will also refuse any senior editor to arbitrate the outome of the dispute!Susanbryce 20:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Please don't allow any prejudism to rule here. Learn how to respect the feelings of other people! Use 75.180.219.137 from the united states continues to vandalize the article, this mattere has twice before been resolved by senior editors but the user refuses to accept their abitration, I once again request another Editor and the has once again stated that they will also refuse any senior editor to arbitrate the outome of the dispute!Susanbryce 20:32, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Susan, you are DISCRIMINATING us! Don't you see that? Why can't you learn how to be human sometimes. We are humans with sensitivity.

HIV with AIDs now

We are reporting a certain Susan Bryce for downrightly degrading our citizens in the city. She's getting worse as she's now including a topic (that we have a high incidence of AIDS in the entire Philippines) which is apparently non-sense and no way helping us out. Please clean this up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 20:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

HIV with AIDs now

We are reporting a certain Susan Bryce for downrightly degrading our citizens in the city. She's getting worse as she's now including a topic (that we have a high incidence of AIDS in the entire Philippines) which is apparently non-sense and no way helping us out. Please clean this up. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.180.219.137 (talk) 20:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

The only way for this mess to stop will be for the article to be locked ans a third party editor to decide and for everyone to obey the Final descision of that EditorSusanbryce 20:57, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we will stop as long as you stop demoralizing our city, Susan. Let be a good role model then.

Dispute Resolution

Good, now this article has been locked, let us now have the Editors resovle this matter once anf for all. here is the disputed section we need ruled on by a third party editor==

"==Welfare Groups== Fr. Shay Cullen, a children’s rights advocate and three time Nobel Peace Prize nominee has spent 37 years of service helping the children of the Philippines and in particular Angeles.http://www.preda.org/archives/2000/r00040001.html There are more welfare groups and Human Rights Moniters in Angeles then anywhere else in the Philippines. This is due to the massive problems of the sex slave industry in Angeles. http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/San/public/%7B7B62844A-267E-4E9A-82F9-224DC2FDA3E8%7D/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1/html/09threportinquiryintoprostitutionfinalreportpt1_39.htmurl = http://www.ips.fi/koulut/199742/6.htm Preda has been actively involved in Angeles for numerous years. The intervention of Preda into the Mango business over the past years has helped.http://www.preda.net/article/ftpreventprostitution.html The Salvation Army set up office there in 2005 and have been active in helping the victims of sex slavery as well as the homeless.http://www1.salvationarmy.org/ihq/www_sa.nsf/vw-issue/53AA2BA6043E361C80257185004AE3C9?opendocument&id=34A6BDBBDD01C4F080257185004AA335 Another charity group, ReachOut Foundation International, with funding from USAID, PATH, and FHI launched a comprehensive AIDS/STD prevention program targeting the brothel-based female sex workers and their partners in this slum community. http://www.aegis.org/conferences/iac/2002/D11246.html Other women’s organizations include Women’s Legal Bureau, Women’s Crisis Center, Women’s Health Care Foundation, Conspectus, Kalayaan); the Nagkakaisang Kababaihan ng Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative (NKAC, or United Women of Angeles City Multi-Purpose Cooperative) in Angeles City.http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvbt.htm The Women’s Health Care Foundation, WEDPRO sponsors a clinic in Angeles City"

Now, the article is well written, it is well sourced and cited, and provides a valuable addition to the article in giving a insight to what is happening in Angeles and a good set of resources for people needing to gain info on Angeles. It highlights the work of recoginzed organizations and Nobel Peace Prize nominee.

Now would an editor pls rule on the this thankyou? and whatever the editor finally rules, lets all obey what the Editor finally decides pls.thankyouSusanbryce 12:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Fr Cullen has not been in Angeles for years. He removed his mission there more than six years ago (I know because I contributed to it, though I did not agree with his tactics or views). Perhaps your views were correct in the past, though I doubt it, and they are certainly not true now. Fr Cullen has moved on, perhaps Susan Bryce should as well. Angeles had a very active campaign against pedophiles which worked, now they are found in other cities, like Cebu. Now, do you have anything current that verifies even a tiny percent of what of you are saying?

Well, you won this time, Susan. That is to make a remark that is offensive and all you ever wanted is to destroy our city. If you really have a good intention of improving this entry, why would you have to be so rude in adding much more absurd entries such as "the city has the highest incidence of AIDS/STD" and that "the city is the center for prostitution?" Those alone only proved how well 'prejudism ruled here. We just wonder why Wikipedia would have allowed that to happen. Well, allowing this entry on "Welfare Groups" will only compromise the impartiality that Wikipedia practices.

Well, you won this time, Susan. That is to make a remark that is offensive and all you ever wanted is to destroy our city. If you really have a good intention of improving this entry, why would you have to be so rude in adding much more absurd entries such as "the city has the highest incidence of AIDS/STD" and that "the city is the center for prostitution?" Those alone only proved how well prejudism ruled here. We just wonder why Wikipedia would have allowed that to happen. Well, allowing this entry on "Welfare Groups" will only compromise the impartiality that Wikipedia practices. I hope Wikipedia editors would come to their senses that it may not take pain sometimes to be human with sensitivity sometimes.

Be considerate, Wikipedia

Well, you won this time, Susan. That is to make a remark that is offensive and all you ever wanted is to destroy our city. If you really have a good intention of improving this entry, why would you have to be so rude in adding much more absurd entries such as "the city has the highest incidence of AIDS/STD" and that "the city is the center for prostitution?" Those alone only proved how well prejudism ruled here. We just wonder why Wikipedia would have allowed that to happen. Well, allowing this entry on "Welfare Groups" will only compromise the impartiality that Wikipedia practices. I hope Wikipedia editors would be considerate and come to their senses that it may not take pain sometimes to be human with sensitivity sometimes.

We hope that Wikipedia will be considerate on these concerns.

We happened to run into this info on the city's income class stating that it's a "3rd class city, Large areas of slums." We don't have any idea where you had come up with this. In fact, Angeles is a 1st class city (and only 1 of the few in Luzon) and to add that it has large areas of slums while not placing the same phrase in other areas in Metro Manila (where there are more and much worse) is telling us one thing: you have succeeded in making a BIG insult to us, while all we ever wanted is to remove the bad impression others have on us.

We have not wasted any single minute of our lives just to be insulted by other people. We need RESPECT and please do edit this smear campaign (Welfare Groups) that Susan kept on adding and we hope Wikipedia would be considerate not to incite such disparaging topic as it causes deep resentment. It is unspeakable and we are citizens who never intended not to be ridiculed by anyone.

All our life we have dreamed of transforming our city from being a stigmatized city to an evolved and progressive city. But how can we we move on and make this worthless perception changed if some apathetic people around (like Susan) would be so persistent and happy to annihiliate our effort to do so? Wikipedia, please help.

Incorrect information in "Welfare" section.

in the WELFARE section of this article it states:

"This is due to the massive problems of the sex slave industry in Angeles."

the references cited say nothing about a "sex slave" problem. in fact the word "slave" is not used once in either article. while it is my opinion that the term "massive" is subjective and also in error it is clear that references to prostitutes are being mis-categorized as "sex slaves" without any basis in fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RodentofDeath (talk • contribs) 08:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Therefore, we now ask Wikipedia editors to make a correction on this alleged massive (???) sex slavery. It is offensive as people might have the notion that people from this city are whores. It's so unfair because there are places other than Angeles where prostitution is more rampant (like Manila, Mindoro, Cebu, among others), yet this is not being mentioned in their respective entries. We thought Wikipedia is a site for information, not a site for humiliation.Fairguy23 FairGuy

Wikipeda is an encyclopedia, as such it should follow International Guidlines!The United Nations have referred to the trade as:"the largest slave trade in history". Heres what was said exactly: "A United Nations official has described the trafficking of women and children across Asia as "the largest slave trade in history". The transfers are made using "even more cruel and devious means than the original slave trade," Unicef's Kul Gautum told an International Symposium on Trafficking of Children". heres the link....http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2783655.stm Now, if the United Nations refers to it as the slave trade, and the United Nations is the representitive of all countries, then I would think that wikipedia would follow their guidlines here.Susanbryce 14:16, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, as a sign of comprimise, I have removed the words "sex slave" which was the cause of some debate from the section, here is the revised section: