Talk:Angelines

Recommended source to perhaps progress this article is Marocchi, Massimo (1988) "Religious Women in the World in Italy and France During the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries," Vincentian Heritage Journal: Vol. 9: Iss. 2, Article 1. Available at: http://via.library.depaul.edu/vhj/vol9/iss2/1 --Matilda ^talk 00:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but what does this say about her abilities and supposed communication with God? I didn't see it. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 01:06, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

it doesn't talk about her communication with God. It does explain why her order is notable. It was her initiative which placed consecrated women in the world, that is not in the cloister. They were also of modest social position. It was a different idea to dealing with the unmarried daughters of the wealthy. After her death there was a movement to shift members of the order into the cloister and that this was resisted should form part of the article in my view.

I am just here in response to the matter being raised on the NPOV notice board. I have no firm views myself. It seems to me though that we should not replicate the material on her life which is covered in the biographical article. We should make clear what is notable about this order.--Matilda ^talk 01:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for that article, Matilda. It's a great source. I agree with you on the need to highlight the non-cloistered way of life Merici helped to pioneer. That is why I created the entry. The issue seems to come from my attempts to explain what it was about her that inspired her followers to taking up this way of life. Daniel the Monk (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Wrong again Sherlock. I take issue with you saying God exists in the article. The existence of God is not proven and is outside the scope of this article. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 02:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The reference expresses the desire of the women to serve God: "In 1531 she gathered around herself some young women who wanted to consecrate themselves to God, not within the walls of a cloister but within a family and in society." That desire is certainly within the scope of the article. Her communication with God, or rather the Holy Spirit, is dealt with on page 194 and 198. I see nothing wrong with referring to the Holy Spirit or Jesus in an article about a religious order. The members of the Company believe in God and within that context it would be anachronistic not to mention God. However, be careful to stick to the referenced facts. Matilda ^talk 03:35, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

specifically the women were consecrating themselves to this God: God in Christianity. It isn't for us to judge them for that. Nor can I think we can dispute it.Matilda ^talk 03:39, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Don't get me wrong, I have zero issue with God being in this. However, "she experienced a call from God" implies God exists. God has to exist for that sentence to even begin to make sense. And saying so would not make for an impartial article. It is perfectly okay to say "she said she experienced a call from God" if there are scholarly reliable source that say so. Same thing with the mystical gifts. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 03:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The Catholic Encyclopaedia has been accepted as a reliable source on Wikipedia. The relevant article http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01481a.htm states "It is related that one day, while in an ecstasy, she had a vision in which it was revealed to her that she was to found an association of virgins who were to devote their lives to the religious training of young girls". Does the form of words "It is related that", or similar, allay your concerns? It gives a source for the foundation story. --Matilda ^talk 04:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Good but with a little digging we could attribute the source of that story. Was it described by Merici or is it just a popular myth. The Catholic Encyclopedia leaves it a little unclear with the vague description. Or maybe I'm just misinterpreting the meaning of "related". I've never heard it in that context. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 04:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

A source for the story is http://www.ursulineacademy.net/page.cfm?p=10 . It is related that, is an old fashioned way for saying it has been said, or "the history of the order tells of a vision received by ... " At home I have a book about saints but I am on holidays and reliant on the Internet :(. Less than satisfactory but this is all I can help with. --Matilda ^talk 04:31, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Matilda, I appreciate your effort for a commonly acceptable text, but doesn't most of the paragraph you added simply duplicate the preceding one? Also, I think the use of the term "Ursuline" here might be confusing, since that term has been co-opted by the nuns. This entry is about the group which has kept the original manner of life. Daniel the Monk (talk) 17:01, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

the source of the story was the Ursulines. I would prefer a better source, for example the Oxford Book of Saints or similar. I don't have access to such a source here while on holiday. I have just dipped my toe into this article because it was mentioned on the NPOV notice board which I am watching because of another article listed there. Yes I agree there is duplication in what I added, this is definitely editing in progress. The difference is that what I added is sourced from the Marocchi article which is I think a source worth citing. It also highlights what I think makes this order notable. Notability is not from what inspired Angela Merici but rather that she founded a company that was different from others in existence at the time. It also managed to survive after her death, a key feature of leadership is often what happens after you are gone. Furthermore contrasting the Angelines to the more conventional Ursulines are interesting in the sense that the Ursulines came from the same origins but the Church hierarchy managed to transform them into an order that conformed to the more usual models. Because the two groups are related I don't see a problem with the Ursulines being a source for the story of the founding.

on holiday, without sources, pecking on an iPad, I am afraid I cannot contribute editorially to do the article justice. I hope however that the NPOV issues are on their way to being resolved. --Matilda ^talk 01:38, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

what I do have here in the wilderness is the ninth edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica from 1888. It belonged to my great great grandfather. It doesn't talk about the Angelines but does mention the Ursulines. It just says she founded the order, doesn't mention divine inspiration and nor really does it need to. Do we need a story about the founding? Or is it sufficient that the order was founded by a woman who was later canonised? --Matilda ^talk 01:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree about the value of Marocci's article.

The Angelines would not have been known in the English-speaking world at the time of that edition. Their presence has generally been overshadowed by that of the Ursulines, perhaps since they never fit the "mold" of a real religious commitment in the eyes of the Church in previous centuries. As to the mystical nature of Merici's inspiration, would Joan of Arc's story be properly presented if one said simply that she won lots of battles and was canonized, without mention of the visions which led her on that path? I am curious about how your encyclopedia presents that element of her life story. Daniel the Monk (talk) 04:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

The Joan of Arc story is not in the same leagur. She is the subject of a national myth, innumerable books, paintings, sculptures and plays, for example that of George Bernard Shaw. Her life was extraordinary. The life of Angela Merici, while worthy, was not extraordinary. Angela Merici is mentioned only in passing in the EB 9th edn. I don't think the EB's treatment of Joan material to the way we treat the founding of the Company of St Ursula.

At present I have found no sources other than those related to the Company of St Ursula that detail the divine inspiration received by Angela Merici. My ability to search is limited. However, given the lack of sources, and also the fact that the Compan's existence can equally well be explained by the passive The Company was founded by Angela Merici with no loss of context or understanding, I am not sure we need more.

The actions of a young girl, not from the court, persuading the King of France to let her lead his armies and then those armies defeating the previously successful English armies, needs more explanation and divine inspiration is part of that explanation for many. --Matilda ^talk 18:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC).

I disagree. The fact that her life still inspires thousands of women worldwide to dedicate their lives in various forms to religious service 500 years later could also be considered pretty extraordinary. This is especially true given how the original form of that way of life has survived these centuries despite a lack of support from many of their religious leaders.

Any in depth description of a social movement explains the context of its beginning. For the Angelines and Ursulines, the spiritual experiences of Merici's life were clearly a reason for trusting her leadership, even today. I don't think that maintaining neutrality needs to ignore this context and they at least deserve mention as per the traditional sources of her life.

By the way, I wouldn't expect there to be many sources independent of the Merician sources, unless one has direct access to general documents of that period. Daniel the Monk (talk) 20:23, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

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