Talk:Anglican Missal

Requested move 17 December 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Anglican missal. (non-admin closure)  sami  ^talk 21:05, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

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Anglican Missal → The Anglican Missal – Per WP:NCTHE (see original edition at OL 7107817M). 142.161.81.20 (talk) 23:03, 16 December 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 20:52, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). TonyBallioni (talk) 04:30, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. "The" is not part of the proper name. Bradv 04:19, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

@Bradv: On what basis do you believe that the definite article is not part of the proper name, given that the above link shows it is the name used by the work itself? 142.161.81.20 (talk) 04:56, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

It's a bit simplistic to point to the cover and say that it uses the word "The" and so should we. There are plenty of books that start with the word the, but we don't use that here, as it doesn't form an integral part of the name. Per WP:NCTHE, it is to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Bradv 05:09, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

@Bradv: The language you are using – "integral part of the name", "avoided unless absolutely necessary" – is nowhere to be found in the relevant guidelines. Rather, it refers to whether or not it is the "official name". What source are you suggesting would be preferable in determining an "official name" other than the work itself and every entry in WorldCat? 142.161.81.20 (talk) 05:18, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

We use common names, not official names. See WP:COMMONNAME. Bradv 05:28, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

@Bradv: Not with respect to the applicability of WP:NCTHE in this context. The precise term it uses is "official title". While you may disagree with the guideline, this is not the venue to have it changed (see WP:CONLEVEL). So with respect to applying the central consensus here, what source are you suggesting would be preferable in determining an "official name" other than the work itself and every entry in WorldCat? 142.161.81.20 (talk) 05:35, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Additionally, putting aside your qualms with the term official name, you have yet to provide any substantiation of your original statement that "The" is not part of the proper name. 142.161.81.20 (talk) 03:49, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

Note to closer/mover I originally moved this as it was uncontested at the moment. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 04:35, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support - the "The" does appear in the offical title. WP:NCTHE: "The definite or indefinite article is sometimes included in the official title of literary works as well as other kinds of fiction and non-fiction publications and works such as newspapers, films and visual artworks. In this case, the article should be included in the name of the corresponding Wikipedia article as well." It seems to apply here. Cnbrb (talk) 22:22, 23 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Nope. "The" is only used in partiuclar editions; see details below. It took under 60 second to find that out. The general idea behind WP:BEFORE applies to all XfD-type discussions, including RM. When you won't even do one minute of research, you waste far more than one minute of multiple other editors' time.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  06:16, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose, and support decapitalising "missal" in all of Category:Missals. WP:THE is a strong reason. Comparing with Bible too. After some thought (I invite User:SMcCandlish to tell me if and why I am wrong), I decided the words on the cover of the books is not a composition title, but a title-case styled descriptive title of the denomination's missal. The title case style used is much simpler to adhere to if one were to stick to Latin, which is actually the history of these missals. In Bible, I am not sure why bible is always capitalised. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:20, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose and decapitalize missal. Things like "the Anglican missal" are not formal titles, but descriptive traditional names (classifiers, actually – see below) that we use for works that don't have a title in the conventional sense. This should be at Anglican missal per WP:THE and WP:NCCAPS / MOS:CAPS, and MOS:TITLES (see in particular MOS:TITLES#Neither, at "Descriptive titles"). I think the problem here is that people are mistaking MOS:TITLES#Scripture for applying to all religion-centric works, when it does not; missals are not scripture; the Bible (and part of it like the Book of Job), the Q'ran, the Talmud, and the Bagavad Gita are scripture. An Anglican missal is just a missal (common noun) that's Anglican. The actual titles of Anglican missals vary by publication (details below); each specific edition has a proper-name title particular to that exact publication, e.g.:
       International Commission on English in the Liturgy (2017). New St. Joseph Sunday Missal: Prayer Book and Hymnal for 2018. Catholic Book Publishing Corp. ISBN 978-1941243770.
  But "Anglican missal", "[Roman] Catholic missal", etc., are just descriptive categorizations of missals by sect. Even the official missals issued by the churches have more specific formal titles (e.g. Roman Missal, Third Edition (in longer form, New Roman Missal, Third Edition, but the short name is usually on the cover) is the English title of the current Roman Catholic one, and there are actually more specific ones, including: Roman Missal, Third Altar Edition; Roman Missal, Third Chapel Edition; Daily Roman Missal, Third Edition [for home use]; Roman Missal, Third Ritual Edition; etc.)

  The Anglican Missal [1] and sometimes just Anglican Missal [2], are among the formal titles of specific editions of Anglican missals published by the Society of Saints Peter and Paul. Others by other publishers include The People's Anglican Missal and The People's Anglican Missal: American Edition; The English Missal; The Altar Book; American Missal; The People's Anglican Missal in the American Edition; The Anglican Missal, Being the Order for the Administration of the Holy Communion According to the Use of the Church of England: Primary Source Edition; The Weekday Missal and The Sunday Missal; and many more (all were found in seconds with a Google Images search, and others turn up on Amazon, etc.).
   — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  06:13, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I knew that was possible, but was not expecting it. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:39, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.