Talk:Ani-Stohini/Unami

Sources

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Please don't remove the citation needed templates unless you are providing a citation. Information about what constitutes a reliable citation can be found at: Wikipedia:Citing sources. The links above are sources for citations; however, most published references to Ani-Stohini/Unami only refer to the group's recognition status and any material that lists Wikipedia as its primary source is not acceptable. Information about the Unami language belongs on the Unami language article, unless it mentions this group. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Better sources?

I would like to see some better sources for this group. One of the current refs is to the Handbook of North American Indians. But that ref doesn't mention the Ani-Stohini/Unami at all, only states that the Unami were a branch of Lenape living on the Delaware River in PA, so that ref may be WP:SYNT. The other ref http://www.indigenouspeople.net/easterntribes.htm#ASU has similar text to our article, but no sources, and I have never read this kind of info anywhere else. I am not saying it is out of the question, but I would like to see more sources to really learn more. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:05, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Agree, but having a hard time finding sources - so far mostly based on what the tribe says about itself - at least wanted to show relation of some Unami to Delaware. Did not originate the article; maybe it should be deleted. Parkwells (talk) 16:28, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

From what I know of the "White Top Laurel band of Cherokee", they were disbanded around 100 years ago despite being on the Guion-Miller roll, mainly because of people like Plecker. Their descendants' chances of getting back on the Cherokee roll have been called 'slim to none', unfortunately. The original band all claimed descent from a Ned Sizemore, who was a native loyalist at the time of the Chickamauga War - but of which tribe he really was is also disputed. The former White Top Laurel band probably deserves a researched article of its own - but all we have is this article, which says it is another name for a group of Lenape in Southwestern Virginia that I have never heard of anywhere else... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:11, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Regarding deletion - the lack of much in the way of reliably sourced info on the Ani-Stohini/Unami does seem rather strange... But I have been able to establish that there has indeed been a group calling itself this, applying for Fed. recognition since at least the mid-90s, as the article says. I could not find any historic mention of the name Ani-Stohini (or even just Stohini) dated to before 1996, though... It seems that Wilano is the correct Lenape word for "tongue", and that the Unami dialect of Lenape can be called "Tla Wilano". It is also known that after getting pushed off their original homeland along the Delaware river, the Lenape gradually migrated westward across PA, and settled into Ohio by 1750. But, I haven't come across any historic record of them ever being in SW Virginia.

The claim to be the only tribe with an "intact" language but no recognition, seems particularly misleading. The Unami language may have a handful of speakers, but of so they would be located in Oklahoma, with the bulk of the Lenape tribe that is federally recognized. Aside from the Ani-Stohini/Unami, there are several other unrecognized bands also claiming connection to a recognized tribe with a still-surviving language, so this does not make them unique, even assuming they are correctly identified as descendants of Lenape. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Certainly interesting notes, however I would like to point out that the tribal information clearly states that the tribe has been called over 40 different names throughout history. This no doubt adds to the research confusion. Some of those names are Mohigan, Salt Indians, Turtle Indians, River Indians, Saura Indians, etc. They have also been called Cherokee and Shawnee although there is no evidence that these two tribes actually ever lived where the current tribe does. Also in both cases with the White Top Cherokee at White Top, Virginia and the Surry County Sizemore family at Pine Ridge Community, Mt Airy, North Carolina, it should be noted that the BIA NEVER said that the applicants were not Indian, in fact they actually stated that they believed they were. Their applications were denied for not proving to be related to the Cherokee people. There is also a lot of information about the Indians in Indian Valley in Floyd County. Perhaps the best way to approach this is to take each one of the names they have been called individually and research that name all of the way back and put it all together. I don't know anyone anywhere who has done that yet. And although the tribe claims that their language is similar to older dialects of Delaware, I have never seen any documentation anywhere that states that they believe they are Lenape or that they are Delaware, only that they are Tla Wilano and that they live in Tla Wilanoutla or Tla Wilano land. Kokohelaeshu (If I'm not wrong I believe that means "Have a nice day" in Tla Wilano-not Delware or Lenni Lenape. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.7.49.193 (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I would love to see more samples of the language, because I'm wondering if it is not the same as Lenape, is it some unstudied and unknown Algonquian dialect? Are you saying it has been spoken continuously all these centuries or did the speakers begin to learn it more recently? Has anything at all been published on the nature of this dialect? I know about the plight of the White Top band firsthand, here there are many Sizemore descendants whose great grandparents were on one of the Cherokee rolls that was cut and de-banded because of the infamous Mr. Plecker a century ago! Now they are called the Outalucks! Been meaning to do something on wikipedia about that... Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:36, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes. That is exactly what I am saying. Tla Wilano was spoken as a language right up until recently. The last speakers were Granny Graham, Creed Burcham, Ethel Davis, Hershel Bilbrey, and Lottie Patton. Hershel Bilbrey learned the language as a second language. There is still one speaker of the language left. He is writing a Tla Wilano language grammar book and glossary using the same format idea as Walker Calhoun did with the language tapes he did with the Cherokee language in Cherokee, N.C. He currently has two students learning Tla Wilano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.208.129.21 (talk) 03:26, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Two changes have been reverted with citation needed tags. These changes relate to specific claims regarding interactions the interaction of this group with the BIA, White House, and US Department of the Interior. The AIM takeover of the BIA building, the Clinton Administration meetings with non federally recongized tribes, and the petitions to the Department of the Interior and their environemntal assessments regarding the mountain bog turtle are all well documented. Who if anyone has checked the specific documentation to see if the group or it's stated members are listed?

Referencing the Clinton Administration meetings with non-federally recognized tribes

AIM Takeover of BIA Building

Department of the Interior decisions on the bog turtle Federer20201 (talk) 03:14, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

References

More information needed

I live in the Southeast, and I do not doubt this group exists, some of the links are dead, and I can't find any website for the tribe. If tribal members could comment about where to find some more information on this talk page, or possible provide links to the main article, that would be appreciated. Much of the information I can find about the tribe (though I don't think contact information would be relevant to the article, I may be wrong), is out of date. I am very curious about this group, and I think that if any of the tribal members can provide us with more documentation, I'd be of utmost happiness. Thank you! (Sorry for not signing in) 207.144.25.210 (talk) 14:23, 21 August 2015 The Tribal office address is P.O. Box 812, Fries, Virginia 24330

Does this group still exist?

I am not finding a whole lot about those group. No contact information (that isn't outdated), no videos on youtube, and only one thing from the BIA. I really think we need a lot more to justify keeping this page. Do they go by a different name now, per chance?Adam (talk) 04:28, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Here we have a user who wants to get rid of any information he personally has never heard of, knows nothing about. With a special view toward eliminating native American cultural information. so then naturally the very next question we ask is, who the hell is this person? the twin brother of Walter Plecker??? then we look up and see he wears a badge on his sleeve proclaiming to all that he follows the Pope. Oh, the POPE,, now do you understand about the Pope??? Excuse me smart mouth, I never said they didn't exist, since I am a Class IV descendant, I know how the government treats aboriginal people. The Pope? Oh. So you read my page. Yes, I am Catholic. So what? What has that got to do with this page? My point was that there need to be better sources. By the way, thanks for signing your name. I would just like more information. Wikipedia policy is No Personal attacks, which you just violated. Please remove your comment, before the people in charge block your account. Adam (talk) 15:04, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

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So I used the Wayback machine

And apparently they used to have a website, and this is what I could find <http://web.archive.org/web/19990220014549/http://ani-stohini-unami.com/>, check the date on that capture. If members of this tribe could please help with actual, original sources, it would greatly benefit us, here. Thank you! Adam (talk) 15:20, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

So it appears the May 29 2022 edit was by a member and all those changes were reverted. I have already added a Baltimore Sun article that is a source for one of the revereted changes. One change that was reverted is the statement that this group DID NOT take the Unami name in relation to the Lenape. The tribal member specifically said that was not true. So information with no verifiable source is being retained, and information that is verifiable (although no one took the time to check) is being removed. These sources tying the Unami name to the Lenape should be removed. Federer20201 (talk) 06:59, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Tla Wilano is probably a language isolate

https://livingdictionaries.app/tla-wilano/

There is now online material for this language. On first glance, the pronouns kih'mih "I" and tu'u "you", as well as numerals (i'ni "one", usht "two", nahtoni "three", hapli "four", haplo "five") are not even close to cognate with Algonquian, Siouan, Iroquoian, Yuchi, or Muskogean. Verbs don't appear to mark for person (extremely unlike Algonquian and Siouan languages) Despite possible loans from Algonquian languages (e.g. wilano "tongue", c.f. Lenape wí:lanu "his tongue"), it seems that actually Tla Wilano is a language isolate, not a dialect of Lenape, not a Siouan language. [This comment by User:172.125.173.118.]

Charles Howard Thomas

Charles Howard Thomas appears to be the primary organizer of this group; however, I can't find a single published secondary source for him in relation to the group, only Wikipedia mirror sites, self-published blogs, and a press release. Misty Dawn Thomas who filed the petition for acknowledgment is his ex-wife. Yuchitown (talk) 17:27, 29 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Why were these changes being reverted instead of being tagged with citation needed? Federer20201 (talk) 01:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Very familiar with the BIA Takeover, etc., but no wp:reliable sources mention this organization in connection to it. You can scour the internet and there simply aren't very many mentions of this group Ani-Stohini/Unami, which is now defunct—except for tons of published lists of the groups that sent letters of intent to petition for federal recognition and Wiki-mirror sites. This article was created back in 2006; it would never meet wp:notability if created today. Yuchitown (talk) 16:27, 29 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

You say in your first post that Charles Howard Thomas is related to the filer of the recognition petition from the 1990s. Which identifies him as someone with knowledge of this subject. You did not answer why what appears to be his content was deleted rather than tagged for needing sources. You simply say the article was written in 2006. How would there be a source mentioning specifc files destroyed in the BIA takeover?

There is a link in this talk page pointing to this group's language on Living Dictionaries. It references the previous information about Lenape language and points out that it is not Lenape. It says who the speakers were and who remains. The stated situtation with this language is not unlike other Indigenous languages - Wukchumni for example. Federer20201 (talk) 04:52, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

A quick search for Ani-Stohini/Unami led to these links, including a 2004 Baltimore Sun article specifically mentioning the Ani Stohini/Unami and the Save The Bog Turtle Foundation they created. I will add that as a citation in the main article. The last link includes a picture of Molly's Knob and states "Molly’s Knob is a 3.4 mile out-and-back trail at Hungry Mother State Park. It’s located on S’atsoyaha (Yuchi), Ani-Stohini/Unami and ᏣᎳᎫᏪᏘᏱ Tsalaguwetiyi (Cherokee, East) land in southwest Virginia." Given that statement and your username Yuchitown, do you feel there is any issue with WP:NPOV?

Federer20201 (talk) 06:00, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

References

There are absolutely tons of lists that mention this group but don't add further information. Please read wp:reliable; IMDB, for instance, is crowd-sourced content and not a reliable source. The BIA employee is Holly Reckord not Holly Reckor. I restored the sources about Unami people and language that you deleted. I haven't nominated this article for deletion, even through it isn't notable. Please read wp:promo and conflict of interest. Yuchitown (talk) 14:22, 31 August 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Better to delete it then continue to put inaccurate information. This group is not tied to the Unami people. Federer20201 (talk) 22:09, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

You don't get to delete other people's comments on talk pages. Yes, it's abundantly clear this organization has nothing to do with the Unami people, but they are borrowing the Unami name. Yuchitown (talk) 22:26, 1 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

What information indicates they are borrowing the name Unami? Federer20201 (talk) 23:20, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

No matter how mistaken one thinks an editor's comments may be compared to objective facts, concerning which Yuchitown's comments certainly are not mistaken, we don't remove an editor's comments unless they are grossly abusive per policy and guidelines. Carlstak (talk) 23:46, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I think we need acknowledgement that you understand your deleting of Yuchitown's good faith comments on a talk page is inappropriate and not in accordance with Wikipedia's collaborative effort and that you will not do it again. It immediately has a chilling affect on discussions when that occurs. You may not like what he says but you don't have the authority or permission to delete it. --ARoseWolf 12:32, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

I was asked to bring it to the talk page and have posted here. Let's summarize the situation. Information placed on this page was reverted by an editor saying it is uncited information. Those deletions were reverted, marked as citation needed, with one claim cited from a Baltimore Sun article. The editor further said this subject is not notable and should be deleted. Which I agreed to. But that talk of deletion now does not seem to be serious. This editor accuses these changes of being a conflict of interest. No response has been given as to how it is a conflict of interest. I am not a member of this group, but if it is that a member of a group editing the accuracy of their own group's information is wrong - why is someone with the username Yuchitown editing Yuchi pages? Or more broadly what about every non-encyclopedic page created by individuals, companies and organizations about themselves on wikipedia? But back to this specifically, what is a clear conflict of interest, is a neighboring Nation invalidating the identity of another group. How many of the three editors chiming in here belong to a Nation whose territory overlaps or is geographically adjacent to SW Virginia? All three I'm willing to bet. As to some of the specific claims - If this group "lifted the name Unami" - where is the source? What identifies it as a "cultural heritage group" rather than an "unrecognized tribe"? If this topic is not notable, why isn't it being deleted? Federer20201 (talk) 22:05, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm staying away from the bad faith assumptions made above directed at other editors. This is becoming a behavioral issue that may need to be resolved at another venue. I digress, to the issues raised above about content. Wikipedia does not care whether this group lifted a name or not. Wikipedia does not care anything about this group. Wikipedia is dispassionate towards any subject of any article. What is required is verifiable sources for any claim. If the group claims to be Unami then there must be a source verifying this information. Whatever is written in the article must be followed by an inline citation to a verifiable reliable independent source in which the claim is actually discussed. Otherwise, it doesn't belong in the article. I discussed the inline citation part of this below on the talk page. We do not call the group an "unrecognized tribe" because that has the opposite affect of what is being said. It gives them recognition in wikivoice which is something Wikipedia can not do. However, if you would like to know why it is labeled a "cultural heritage group" you may want to read Wikipedia's article on Cultural heritage. --ARoseWolf 13:26, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The issue raised is conflict of interest - a concern were the aims of two parties are incompatible. This was raised first by Yuchitown directed at me. I pointed out that I am not a member of the group as was claimed and that a true conflict of interest is between two people/groups with competing interests. Bad faith is an intent to deceive, it's not the same thing, and those are your words. It is not an uncommon situation for two Nations to have overlapping territorial claims. Is a Kanienkehaka source authoritative for an Anishinaabe land claim? Is Denmark an authoritative source on Canada's territory on Hans Island? There are multiple sources citing the groups name as Ani-Stohini/Unami, including the Baltimore Sun article I recently cited, as well as government documents and several directories. There is no verifiable source to support Yuchitown's statement "the Unami name is lifted". The group is identified as an unrecognized tribe in the majority of these sources. Federer20201 (talk) 04:58, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

BIA records pre-1978

What archives exist to search BIA petitions, testimony and documents prior to 1978? There is no guarantee this content is indexed via Google or other search engines. Caution should be exercised in deleting content of historically disenfranchised groups. For example, the Muscogee Nation of Florida:

As Petitioner Number 32 in the Office of Federal

Acknowledgment, we now have the dubious distinction of being one of the three oldest petitioners. We have seen many things. This year marks 60 years since the longest serving community leader, my great grandfather, wrote to the BIA and explained that our people should share in land claim settlements under the Treaty of Fort Jackson. The BIA's written response: well, you are mistaken, you cannot possibly be who you say you are, because the members of that tribe are either dead or removed. Ten years later, the BIA admitted they were wrong. But it took until 1971 to receive a notice of settlement. By then, my great-grandfather had been dead for 2 years. Telling you this today is important, because in 1852, State law made it illegal to be an Indian living freely in the State of Florida. So the settlement letter was our mechanism to confirm our racial identification in a place where Jim Crow laws had forced us to become either white or black. Indian wasn't allowed where we lived. And I guess today that would be called ethnic cleansing. We continued with a petition submitted in the mid to late 1970s. That was returned because the rules had been restated.

And we started again.

THere are specific claims being made here. That an Ani-Stohini/Unami petition was submitted to the BIA in 1968. That Holly Reckor of the BAR stated that petition was lost/destroyed in the 1972 BIA takeover. That the Ani-Stohini/Unami attended six Clinton-administration meetings for non-federally recognized tribes.

The lack of an easily found Google-indexed reference does not seem adequate to refute such specific claims. Those and other claims were hastily deleted. Yet it took only a short time to find a reliable source that the Ani-Stohini/Unami were part of the campaign to save the Bog Turtle. Federer20201 (talk) 07:25, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:BURDEN, you shouldn't have restored the poorly or unsourced information without providing an inline citation. By doing so you take on the responsibility and burden of providing such a source. Adding a "citation needed" template is only temporary to give you a very limited time to find the source. Ideally if you are going to restore unsourced information you should already have the source needed to verify the information prior to restoring it. --ARoseWolf 12:49, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Regardless if that is the intent it is not the practice. There are countless articles on Wikipedia with many years old 'citation needed' tags. If you do a google search for "citation needed" site:wikipedia.org it produces 100s of millions of results. The source for this claim is the tribal member Charles Howard Thomas referenced in this talk page. I provided an external source for one of the specific claim regarding the bog turtle and suggested other avenues to further source the other claims. Federer20201 (talk) 05:10, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Just because other poorly referenced and questionable articles exist on Wikipedia is no excuse to drag this one down. Although since notability is non-existent, it might be time to request deletion. Yuchitown (talk) 21:11, 14 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

No information is better than wrong information. You've addressed none of the points I've raised. Restoring a trivial reference from a linguistics book doesn't change the fact that the Lenape and Tla Wilano languages are not the same and there is no scholarship indicating they are related. The words within them are not the same. Take some basic examples: water in Lenape - mpi, water in Tla Wilano wauga, I in Lenape - ni, I in Tla Wilano kimih , bear in Lenape - maxkw, bear in Tla Wilano - a'koh (throat click sound - a sound which doesn't exist in Lenape) Federer20201 (talk) 00:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

References

There is no scholarship about Tla Wilano, period. A self-published website and self-published books don't qualify. That was the only scholarly mention of this alleged language. BTW searching Ethnologue yields no results, nor does searching Google Scholar. Yuchitown (talk) 01:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown