Talk:Anna Throndsen

Categories

Please stop adding general categories. This article is not an article about Denmark, about Norway or about general history. Please also keep article specific discussions here.carewolf 13:33 February 16 2007 (UTC)

Carewolf: This is a multi-category page. Please stop changing categories here. Please don't force me to ask this yet again.JP

As for the categories, the current ones seem ok to me, although it would be preferable to use narrower categories than Category:History of Denmark and Category:History of Scotland. Hemmingsen 08:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Move the article to Anna Rustung

This article should be moved. The name "Anna Throndsen" is an impossibility - Throndsen is a patronym, and means "Anna, son of Thrond". Not correct, as she was a daughter, not a son. She should conventionally have been called Anna Kristoffersdaughter, but for some reason, the name Anna Tronds, does appear, she is named after her grandfather. Not TrondsEN, though. Anyway, she has a family name, Rustung, so the article should be moved there.--Barend 13:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

If you have been involved in Genealogy/History you come to know that "Rustung" is a centuries-later fabrication by historians, and that Anna, and at least one other daughter of Kristoffer Trondson, used the name "Anna Trondson" and never "Kristoffersdatter". Unusual for the time, you are right, but anyways the truth. Gabagool (talk) 17:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

That was a bit wrong, I meant his daughters actually used "Tronds", not "Trondson". Gabagool (talk) 17:42, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

This anomaly probably had to do with the fact that the family (her father's family) was unusually international for the time. Due to her father's role as diplomat, pirate, and leader of a national fleet (for first Norway then Denmark) the family moved quite a bit. Anna was born in Flanders, grew up in Norway, and then moved to Copenhagen when Norway went under Denmark in 1536, (effectively her Dad went to work for the opposing side) to become a Danish Admiral (later a Royal Danish Consul). I have tons of references for all of this stuff (some of them books in my house), but a bunch of bahstid Wikipedians were mean to me, so don't count on me to add anything. Start with Durova, end with Slimvirgin, and pop in a need for political.... oh never mind. I, like Gabagood (who knows me, but doesn't realize who I am) are descendants of Anna's father, Kristoffer. There's a whole army of us Kristofferslekts.  ;) 83.77.16.47 (talk) 11:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

We "descendants of Kristoffer" are the only Norwegians to know about this story. After Denmark took over Norway, they sort of "glossed over" the whole "Norwegians who used to be something before it was subsumed" issue. ;) Kristoffer made out well after the 'takeover' given that he was related to a bunch of Danish Earls, to start with. Such as Rosenkrantz (Erik Rosenkrantz, his cousin) and Guildernstern (not sure if he was a relative, but he played a role in Kristoffers transition to Danish royal service after playing a role on the opposing (losing) side. The family is very interesting. Anna's sisters married important men in the Scottish and English courts. They got there via Anna. But am I writing about any of this? Noooooooooooooooooooo. :p 83.77.16.47 (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

re: Rustung. Rustung was some sort of "middle-family name", which they used along at the time before the Tronds/Throndssen. Rustung has a våpen (family crest) belonging to the name. The name itself was certainly was not invented by historians. Having said that, they did, in fact, use the name Throndssen (and Tronds), not Rustung. 83.77.16.47 (talk) 11:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

It is well established by Norwegian historians and genealogists that "Rustung" was never used about/by this family until long after their deaths. Rustung was, however, the name of another Norwegian noble family centered around Sogn and Bergen. Nothing currently suggests that the family of Kristoffer Trondsson was connected to this family in any way. For what reason the Rustung-name was attributed to his family is actually not really known for sure. -GabaG (talk) 16:39, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

By the way, how could I possibly know how you (83.77.16.47) are when you haven't even created a User! :P And yes, I am a descendant of Kristoffer Trondsson through his daughter Magdalena. If you'd notice me about who you are it would also be nice. -GabaG (talk) 16:45, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll send you an email. You know me. Though it's been ages. I generally don't like Wikipedia, and I'm not interested in joining. I did edit this article a bit though, due to the subject matter. Her sister Magdalena was my ancestor.  :) Talk to you later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.79.90.86 (talk) 19:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, you'll find a link to send me an e-mail on my user page (or just here: [1]). -GabaG (talk) 22:32, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Anna Throndssen

I am not going to quibble, but "Anna Tronds" was used principally in Norwegian (where she moved very late in life). In English history, she's known as "Anna Throndssen" (although the declension on the name swaps in and out ssen, sen, and son. So actually, she should be known as Throndsen here.

I have copies of an entire set of her letters which were written to Bothwell, and which were used as a part of Mary Queen of Scots court case, i.e. poetry that scholars contest was-or-was-not part of Mary-or-Annas prose. (British historians are very mean to Anna. They feel that the Scandianvian nobility was less-than-status-quo, and are very critical of her behavior after how cruelly Bothwell treated her. Actually, so were Bothwell's friends, including some of Elizabeth's courtiers, but never mind that). But am I writing any of this, or citing it? Nooooooooooooo. 83.77.16.47 (talk) 12:09, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Actually they probably took the name "Tronds" after the Dutch naming-pattern (the family moved around a lot). Kristoffer's daughters is contemporary only known to have been called by the name "Tronds". If the family were only living in Norway Kristoffer's daughters would be called "Kristoffersdatter" ("Daughter of Kristoffer"). If his daughters is known in English history as "Trondsson" (ssen, sen, etc.) ("Son of Trond") it has no hold in contemporary history at all. Before the 20th century, when surnames were fixed by law in Norway, it was impossible for a woman to have a "sen"- or "son"-name. And even less after their grandfather. -GabaG (talk) 17:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I am well apprised of Nordic naming conventions. The name "Tronds" used exclusively in Nordic references with regard to this family. It's never used in English language. It should not be used in an English Wikipedia. The name "Throndsen" is written in English and Scots. Tronds is never written in English. As you rightly noted, the normal naming convention (which I already knew) did not apply to her, nor to the family. I fail to understand why you have decided to explain to me what you explained to the man above. I never assumed there was naming after her grandfather. 83.77.57.23 (talk) 13:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Though I guess I have to accept that she has been called "Anna Throndsen" in English I am amazed by how ignorant these English historians apparently have been. Not only was it contemporary completely impossible for a woman to have a "-sen"-last name, and she could, as said, even less have used it after her grandfather. "Tronds" is, as in English, also never used normally in Norway either!! However the family lived in the Netherlands when they used their names in this manner, where such naming-conventions was normal at the time. "Throndsen" is nothing more than a complete anachronism, and to Norwegians who are familiar with history it looks totally wrong and rediculous. If she didn't use "Tronds" she would have used "Kristoffersdatter", never "Throndsen". However, I do accept that it may have been invented in English and is most commonly used there. If possible it would anyways be nice if you could provide sources in the article where she is named "Anna Throndsen" just to be sure about this. Regardless she should as anyone else have her real name "Anna Tronds" at the introduction of the article. (as in for instance Saladin) (I will not further make any comments about this exact issue as I have already said all there is to say.) -GabaG (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Erased message to be nicer

Please stop changing her name to Anna Tronds. Almost all published literature uses the name Anna Throndsen, either with one "s" or two "ss"s. Thanks for your understanding.

Litegran (talk) 09:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Number of husbands of Mary Queen of Scots

The article says: "He had left Scotland, fleeing the authorities seeking him on murder charges related to the death of Darnley, first husband of Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots". This is incorrect, and I've changed it. Darnley was Mary's second husband. Her first husband was Francis II, dauphin (later king) of France. See article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_II_of_France --Eam531 (talk) 00:44, 4 January 2010 (UTC)eam531