Talk:Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Easily the best article I have ever read about a toll highway in Madagascar.

-- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 04:42, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BorgQueen (talk) 06:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the completion of the Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway will reduce typical travel time from Madagascar's capital to its largest port by between five-and-a-half and seven-and-a-half hours? Source: Madagascar Tribune and Africanews
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Light the Beam

Created by Red-tailed hawk (talk). Self-nominated at 05:09, 20 February 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Article new and long enough - I would shorten the hook as it repeats some information in the body verbatim, but not a disqualifier. Copyvio not detected, hook interesting. QPQ done, and hook verified in source cited + mentioned in article. The two sources linked above isn't inline cited to the hook fact in article, but the existing one does so no issue there. Good to go. Juxlos (talk) 08:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

  Just a quick comment, but the hook can be further shortened by converting the measurements into numerals. It's not that common to spell out compound fractions like that. Thus:

  ... that the completion of the Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway will reduce typical travel time from Madagascar's capital to its largest port by between 5.5 and 7.5 hours?

  Imzadi 1979 → 17:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

  Works for me. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:01, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Red-tailed hawk and Juxlos: Unfortunately this hook cannot run as is. At the moment, it sounds like Wikipedia is making a prediction in wikivoice about a highway that has not been completed yet. As we all know, large public infrastructure projects are often political footballs – governments and various parties often make claims about future expected benefits that don't always pan out. It's also possible that the highway will not be completed. I'm not even sure if it's ok to feature this article on the main page, given that it's about a highway that hasn't been built/isn't in operation yet, but at minimum the hook would need to be modified in some way. Cielquiparle (talk) 13:03, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  Would that the completion of the Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway will reduce typical travel time from Madagascar's capital to its largest port by between 5.5 and 7.5 hours, per Madagascar's government work better for you? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 13:21, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

  Formatting the hook above as ALT0b (with further tweaks to stay within the 200 character limit) and proposing a few other modifications:

• ALT0b: ... that completion of the Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway will reduce typical travel time from Madagascar's capital to its largest port by between 5.5 and 7.5 hours, per Madagascar's government?
• ALT0c: ... that Madagascar's government expects the Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway to reduce typical travel time from the capital to its largest port by between 5.5 and 7.5 hours, once completed?
• ALT0d: ... that once completed, Madagascar's government expects the Antananarivo–Toamasina toll highway to reduce typical travel time from the capital to its largest port by between 5.5 and 7.5 hours?

Need another editor to review and approve (or propose more ALT hooks). Cielquiparle (talk) 18:14, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

• I find all of the above hooks to be quite boring. Reading the article, the only thing I can pick out for a new hook suggestion would be:

ALT1: ... that Madagascar's first toll highway is expected to be completed 4 years from now?

-- RoySmith (talk) 03:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

What about something like Madagascar began construction on its first toll highway in December 2022? It seems interesting to me that a country so large has not yet implemented a toll road. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:17, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

@RoySmith: It still doesn't work, because it is making a prediction into a DYK hook, which in any case flies in the face of WP:CRYSTALBALL. (Big infrastructure projects in particular are notorious for missing target dates, and four years is a long way off.) That said, I think finding a hook that is not a prediction, could resolve my issues with this DYK nomination. Perhaps content could be added to the article about the history of how this project was proposed and debated, and what interests were for and against the toll highway proposal that was finally approved, or perhaps some issues have emerged during construction. Cielquiparle (talk) 05:42, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Cc: @Red-tailed hawk: Please see above. I'm now thinking this could be resolved by adding content to the article, and proposing a non-crystal ball hook based on that. Cielquiparle (talk) 08:15, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect, I do believe that the alts 0b, 0c, and 0d are each interesting—cutting down a 10 hour journey by 5.5 to 7.5 hours is huge in terms of economic impact. If the issue is that nobody finds the article content interesting—despite the obvious importance of this for an economy of a large country in the global south—I really don't know what to do here. I am personally hampered in my ability to expand the article further at this time due to language barriers, but I don't understand why these hooks would be boring in some objective sense. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 22:04, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

What's uninteresting to me about those hooks is that "New highway X will reduce travel time by N hours between city A and city B" is true for any new highway. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:05, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

It's uninteresting that the travel time between the capital of a country and its largest port is expected to be reduced by more than 50%? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 23:38, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

It is uninteresting to me. Obviously it is interesting to you. Different people have different opinions about what's interesting. What remains to be seen is if any reviewers think it's interesting enough to promote. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:24, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

• Maybe a better hook would just simply be to say that it's Madagascar's first toll expressway? I don't think it being finished 4 years now is all that interesting, but it being the first toll road in the country itself is. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:56, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Thanks for taking a fresh look, but I'm somewhat skeptical of claiming the "first" before the project is completed. The motorway project is expected to be completed by December 2026, and it seems far enough in the future in a politically and financially volatile environment, that it's possible it won't be finished...so it feels like a speculative hook. @Red-tailed hawk, Juxlos, and RoySmith: I've now added more content to the article – more information about displaced farmers, expropriation and compensation, the tender process and financing – as well as the corruption allegations by Roland Ratsikara, the deputy for Toamasina 1, and the government response. I do think the article tells a more complete and balanced story now, but at the moment I'm still at a loss about how to create a hook out of it. Cielquiparle (talk) 15:09, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, here is a candidate for consideration:

• ALT2: ... that following the launch of the Antananarivo–Toamasina highway construction project, former public works minister Roland Ratsiraka accused the Madagascar government of corruption? [1]

Cielquiparle (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm not sure if this is the best option. It's not uncommon for projects in emerging countries to be accused of corruption. For what it's worth, the article claims that they're aiming to partially open the toll road this year. Of course, that is subject to change (and coming from a country where delayed openings for infrastructure are the norm, is understandable). However, in such a case, would that still be a WP:CRYSTAL thing? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:11, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: Yes, accusations of corruption seem pretty run-of-the-mill for major infrastructure projects, also in developed countries. The reason the government is determined to complete a segment of the highway before the end of the year is due to the upcoming presidential election in November/December – again, not really that surprising, and depending on how we say it, it sounds like we're parroting a political promise. Going back to the "first" claim you suggested...maybe combining it with the international aspect?

• ALT3: ... that in 2022, an Egyptian company was awarded the contract to build the first motorway in Madagascar? [2]

Cielquiparle (talk) 16:31, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

(Past tense, so even if the motorway is never completed or if another firm takes over the contract...at this point in time it was a true descriptor of the project and contract.) Cielquiparle (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

• I suppose this is ready for a new review then. I still would have very much preferred the "first toll road" angle but if that's too problematic then I guess another reviewer can take a look again at this. Courtesy pings to the previous reviewer Juxlos. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:19, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• New hook is fine, IMO. Plus that one is much less controversial - bonus points if it’s possible to get an article on the Egyptian company. Juxlos (talk) 01:47, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

One more try per Narutolovehinata5's last comment. Does this work?

• ALT4: ... that in December 2022 construction began on the first motorway in Madagascar, which is planned as a toll road?

As a side note: I have proposed renaming the page to Antananarivo–Toamasina highway, as it seems more consistent with what the planned road is called at the moment in Madagascar ("l'autoroute Antananarivo–Toamasina"), plus the Wikipedia naming convention for toll roads, which usually don't have "toll" in the name. @Juxlos: If you approve of one or two of the hooks, could you please give it another green tick, and specify which hooks are approved? CC: Red-tailed hawk, Narutolovehinata5 Cielquiparle (talk) 04:30, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

ALT3 and ALT4 are both alright, though maybe go for ALT3 just to have something aside from "first". Juxlos (talk) 04:51, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Rename to Antananarivo–Toamasina highway?

Noticed in the media coverage to date that the road is usually referred to simply as "l’autoroute Antananarivo–Toamasina" and that the "toll" part usually isn't included in article names for toll roads in Wikipedia. Proposing that "Antananarivo–Toamasina highway" should be the primary name for the page, and that the "toll highway" variation could be a Redirect. Cielquiparle (talk) 04:14, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I saw that the DYK got promoted so I've gone ahead and boldly moved the page in advance of hitting the main page. Since it is a highway that is still under construction and won't open for a while, it may be the case that the "formal" name of the highway changes in the future, and/or is assigned a number by which it is referred to, so I expect this may not be the final name for this article. For now I've created Autoroute Antananarivo–Toamasina as a redirect as well, although I could also see the argument for possibly making that the main name of the page, to align with the local name. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:30, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

OK, I think I see why this was originally called "toll highway" – it's because the other paved roads are using British terminology and are already referred to as "highways" – in which case this toll highway should be referred to as a "motorway". So if this is a concern, the better name for this page would be Antananarivo–Toamasina motorway. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:54, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I will stop moving this article now, but my prediction is that someone from WikiProject Highways will rename the page to Autoroute Antananarivo–Toamasina in the near future...and then the page will be moved again once it is given a national autoroute/motorway name and/or number. Cielquiparle (talk) 08:44, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

"Motorway" is not used in American English, and the article was written in American English, so I oppose moving this to include "motorway" in the title. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:38, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I believe that an English name should be maintained, and I like the use of "toll" in the article title inasmuch as it clarifies that we are talking about this specific route rather than RN2. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:37, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I get it now, sorry for all the back and forth. I just think it's significant that this is the first proper American-style highway (not just a road in the British sense of highway), in addition to being the first toll highway. So it may be worth considering changing all the terminology of the other pages too? Cielquiparle (talk) 21:03, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed and done. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 21:16, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

• Comment - @Red-tailed hawk and Cielquiparle: The hook currently at Queue 5 specifically saying "motorway" is certainly sourced in the article but the article itself doesn't say anything about it being the first "motorway" only the first "toll highway". Can this statement be added somewhere in the article per WP:DYKCRIT 3a? - Aoidh (talk) 03:03, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Aoidh Can we just change the hook to say "toll highway" instead of motorway after all? Thank you. Cielquiparle (talk) 06:18, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

  Not a problem, done. - Aoidh (talk) 06:21, 20 April 2023 (UTC)