Talk:Antoine de Saint-Exupéry/Archive 1

Archive 1

January 2003

Removed "where he is stranded on a tiny planet", because that misleading information. He is stranded in the desert of Sahara, where he meets the Little Prince who's been on Earth a whole year. Sigg3.net — Preceding undated comment added 08:46, 6 January 2003 (UTC)

January 2003 II

"It seems he was also an aircraft designer." I don't think you're right. Of course he was interrested by aircraft design. Where does the quote comme from ? Ericd — Preceding undated comment added 19:16, 23 January 2003 (UTC)

I got this quote from: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s07.html. Ppareit — Preceding undated comment added 19:38, 23 January 2003 (UTC)

It's a fair chance he was interested in aircraft design, I don't think he was a designer himself though. Above all he was a pilot. This was long before advanced technology was implemented into the airplanes, and Saint-Exupéry had numerous crashes, also in the Sahara desert. Sigg3.net — Preceding undated comment added 22:05, 11 May 2003 (UTC)

April 2004

I added some english quotes, but I do not have the french text as someone supplied for the other quotes. -- Ds13 06:40, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)

Third most [widely] read?

This statement seems fishy to me: and is the third most read book only to the Holy Bible and the muslim Ku'ran. Who says so? How can anybody possibly know which is the third most [widely] read book? --???? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heron (talk • contribs) 08:20, 20 September 2004 (UTC)

I agree and I'm removing the passage until someone comes up with a credible source. Lisiate 21:54, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What was probably meant is that Quid? almanach, 1970, listed "Vol de Nuit" as the third best-selling novel in France, in "recent" years. 2,242,600 copies. He also has two others in the top 10. That's does seem worth putting in the article, somehow... Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 13:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hyphen

I read, somewhere, that his name was credited as "Saint Exupéry" with no hyphen. Can someone tell me why that was? Mike H 17:45, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

It's because you have to exert a lot of energy if you write a hypen so they don't put a hy pen on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.23.172.95 (talk • contribs) 09:38, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Besides the (at least) unintelligent remark below (this one may spare energy, but not aimed at the right target), the fact is that any legal document in France do not show any hyphen in his name. This is not an exception — other people share this peculiarity. Till now, I haven't got convincing explanations about any rules or usage about hyphenation in names in the French-speaking areas. — Ivan Korenyuk ψ Іван Коренюк 09:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

- The above statement, « the fact is that any legal document in France do not show any hyphen in his name », is absolutely not true. Please look at the image of the banknote issued by the Banque de France that was added to this article today. « Saint-Exupéry » is spelled with a hyphen. This « legal document » was in the hands of every French citizen. Charvex (talk) 12:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

- Please also look at the sign from Québec in the article. « Saint-Exupéry » is spelled with a hyphen here too. This sign was made by governmental authorities. Charvex (talk) 12:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

- Please also see this same article at 'fr.wikipédia. « Saint-Exupéry » is spelled with a hyphen in the title of the article, too. - This English article should be corrected. Charvex (talk) 12:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

My recollection from the wonderful 1994 bio (Schiff) is that he started to use the hyphen when he lived in NY, because the US custom was that you could not have a double 'family name' unless it was hyphenated.Cross Reference (talk) 01:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The use of the hyphen is general correct usage in French. So, everybody who hears the name over the phone, will write it with a hyphen, like contemporary newspaper editors... Besides, all books were published under his name with the hyphen, which amounts to the hyphened version being his pseudonym. The name of the article should be the hyphened version (the name he is known under in the English speaking world (see WP:Manual of Style), and in the introduction his full name without the hyphen and an explanation should be mentioned. Kraxler (talk) 15:36, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Cross Reference, above, was correct, as stated in the Forward of Schiff's 1994 biography. It was after his arrival in the United States that Saint-Exupéry himself adopted the hyphen within his surname, as he was annoyed when Americans addressed him as "Mr. Exupéry" (Schiff, 1994). This has now been noted in the article. Best HarryZilber (talk) 13:20, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, that is exactly what we need. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 13:44, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Suicide?

It would be nice to have some sources for these "suicide theories". Are they based on any factual evidence, or just someones opinion? It could just as easily be someone interested in gaining publicity for themselves by taking a contrarian position. It seems.. I'm not even sure this is noteworthy enough to add to the article, anyone who dies in unknown conditions could have a "suicide theory", it almost goes without saying. --Stbalbach 17:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Well yes suicide

Yes well the main theory of the little prince is that the most important is invisible to the eyes is the real king pin to the suicide theory. The little prince realizes he lights up the stars for his flower as he does for the pilot. However this doesn't bring peace to his lonely existence. He is still conflicted by his inability to care for the rose and his now conspicuous responsibility to her. He has already made in his mind his noble impact in loving the rose. However contention arises her life is in question by the little prince this is evident in his discourse with the pilot of how sheep left unattended will eat even flowers with thorns. The snake speaks of his ability to allow the little prince to escape his torment saint-exupéry directly alludes to death of which the little prince already has due motive. I thought this opinion to be rudementary but apparently this is not so. What other possible escape could the snake offer other than death. Perhaps he represents the narcotics dealer in society. That is a much more likely opinion don't you think? ton ami Henri Ruehle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.110.98.99 (talk • contribs) 04:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe the question referred to the possible suicide of Saint-Exupery himself (due to the finding of his plane and artifacts far off course, with no evidence of having been shot down), not the character of The Little Prince. 172.10.238.180 (talk) 03:13, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

May 2006

Would be helpful to add pronunciation and/or a recording to know how to say his name properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.237.23.72 (talk • contribs) 20:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The Right Stuff

I've included a section entitled "Other literary references" to appropriately link to Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff. The quote is one of the most poignant mentions of the definition of The Right Stuff . Mark5677 09:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The plane crash

I quote:

Today it is regarded as very improbable that Saint-Exupéry was shot down by a German pilot (in spite of the bragging of a German airman who later claimed so). The German aerial combat records of July 31, 1944 do not list any shooting down in the Mediterranean that day.

Where are the sources proving these claims? Who was the pilot bragging about it? Is there a link to the aerial combat records? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.151.172.236 (talk • contribs) 02:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know when the comment above was left. Perhaps the March, 2008 revelations now included in the article with citations to three news reports (Reuters, Le Monde, and the AFP report) have resolved this issue. -- LisaSmall ^T/C 20:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The aerial combat records would probably be in Koblenz in the Federal Archives. (Bundesarchiv, Luftwaffenarchiv). The former pilot who claimed to have shot down Saint-Exupéry was the late Horst Rippert. I have not known him but his younger brother, the singer with the stage name Iwan Rebroff. He often baffled me with his lies. Rippert went public with his claim after the brother had died and it did not ring true to me. The brothers were estranged and the singer could have said 'that's not how I remember it." If the Luftwaffe archives do not show combat or loss of a plane on that day, then Rippert's claim was definitely a lie. The BBC has just tuned into it again. 2001:8003:AC60:1400:3905:67CC:B867:4BA8 (talk) 06:08, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

uppercase in title

In #Works some titles are written using uppercases while in fr.wp in lowercases. Unfortunately I don't speak French at all but found a book in amazon.fr for fr:Terre des hommes (not Hommes). Should we fix them, or? --marsian 07:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, in French (as in Italian and Spanish) we don't capitalize words in titles as in English. Matteo 07:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Matteo. It's quite informative to me. Well... I found the descriptions: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization)#Capitalization of expressions borrowed from other languages, which is pointing Wikipedia:France-related topics notice board#Titles of works of art. And now I understand why you left Le Petit Prince as it is: because it's a proper name, right? Then I wonder if L'aviateur is to be L'Aviateur (as in fr.wp) or not ... or you just forgot to change? --marsian 09:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, not really. I left Le Petit Prince because it was like that in the French version. Also for L'aviateur it does more sense with a lowercase a. I looked at the list of books of Saint-Exupéry on the amazon.fr and Le Petit Prince and it was the only one with capital letters on all the editions. Maybe it was like that on the original work? Matteo 10:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Roger that. Thanks anyway. --marsian 23:49, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

In French, the correct usage is to write the first noun and all preceding words in upper-case, the remainder except proper names in lower-case. Nevertheless, many people do it differently, disregarding the rule, which leads to some confusion. So, correct is "Le Petit Prince" and L'Aviateur". Kraxler (talk) 15:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

New York Residence

From looking through Town of Huntington documents on an unrelated matter this morning, I found that Saint-Exupery actually in Northport New York, not NYC (that's also where he wrote "The Little Prince". I've changed the sentence dealing with his New York location to reflect this. BigKahuna13 01:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I suppose this would be commonly available info in any recent biography. I wonder where the NYC information came from. -- Stbalbach 15:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I just did a search in Stacy Schiff's biography for "Huntington" and only found one minor reference.[1] I think we need a source to show he lived in Huntington and not NYC. -- Stbalbach 15:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry my confusion, Northport not Huntington, the Schiff biography supports that. -- Stbalbach 15:39, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Saint-Exupery did not write The Little Prince while residing in Northport, New York. Saint-Exupery was staying in New York City but required a more peaceful and cooler location out on Long Island. During the fall of 1942 he rented a historic mansion known as The Bevin House which is located in Asharoken, New York, which is where he wrote The Little Prince. I created an article for The Bevin House and at the bottom of that page you'll find multiple citations to the fact that The Little Prince was written there, and to the location of the house as Asharoken, not Northport (there's even a satellite image showing the house's location). I will say that Northport is the nearest town but Saint-Exupery never resided in Northport. I hope this helps. --Fife Club 18:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC) P.S. If one of you happens to also be anonymous IP 24.46.137.107, please don't re-add Saint-Exupery back in the Northport article[2].

Thanks for clearing that up. It seemed odd that someone would stumble on it in "town documents" of unknown authority when any number of quality biographies are available. -- Stbalbach 14:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Why would you find that odd? Document wasn't of unknown authority - it was on the the letterhead of the "Northport Historical Society and Museum". I've emailed the society about the discrepancy. Curious to see what their response will be. BigKahuna13 00:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's just that it is a primary source historical document which has not been fully analyzed by a professional historian and put in historical context. Certainly there is other evidence besides this to locate where he lived and the biographers have figured it out. -- Stbalbach 13:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I can totally understand the confusion and I had to contact elected officials who got me in contact with a local historian before I made any corrections. Although I don't live anywhere near Long Island anymore I did grow up right there in that area. Get ready to be confused:

Asharoken, New York is an isthmus which completely cut it off from the main land except through Northport, New York[3]. Asharoken has no businesses at all so anybody living out there must travel to or through Northport for anything they need to live, hence the strong connection. Asharoken doesn't have their own schools or library either, using Northport's - and hence why the Northport Public Library has a large Saint-Exupery exhibit. Making this connection even stronger, Asharoken doesn't have it's own Post Office so it share's the Northport zip code. Even when I typed "Asharoken, NY" into Google Maps I got a location pointer saying "Northport". (See this map and particularly this closeup section to see the borders of Asharoken and it's location compared to Northport.)

So it makes complete sense why Asharoken could be mistakenly considered Northport even for locals. But even though The Bevin House looks out at Northport Harbor and can probably see the town of Northport, it is technically located within the Incorporated Village of Asharoken. I was just trying to be accurate. I am very curious to know what the "Northport Historical Society and Museum" says about this. Please let us know. If they disagree I'd like to contact them myself with these facts. Thanks. --Fife Club 20:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Airport

Of note - the relatively new airport servicing the Lyon, Rhone region is named after St. Exupery. The architecture of the airport is also striking as it resembles an eagle in flight through glass and metal armatures. 68.62.16.211 16:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)ant1

First name

The article doesn't explain why he was christened Jean-Baptiste Marie Roger de Saint-Exupéry, yet he's known as Antoine. JackofOz 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He wasn't, and the article is wrong. Antoine Marie Roger de Saint-Exupery was his baptismal name, but unfortunately I can't find an authoritative source on it to make the correction and duly footnote it. Therefore I'm leaving the error and I hope someone will be able to make the correction. Cantabwarrior 02:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It seems to have been corrected some time ago. NFA. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 19:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Infobox

Added an {{Infobox Writer}} infobox using for the most part information already contained in the article. Please modify it as may be necessary. Cantabwarrior 03:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Mirage/Hallucination

In the description of Antoine's experience in the desert there is the line: "Both of the men began seeing mirages." As a mirage is a natural phenomena, dependenant on the environment, not the health of the observer, shouldn't this read "Both of the men began to hallucinate."? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DangerLaef (talk • contribs) 01:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I made a small change to correct this. Mirages are an everyday occurance in a hot desert (a video camera is perfectly capable of capturing them). (The confusion may have crept in on account of a similar confusion by the Thompson twins in a popular Tintin album.) Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 07:52, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Horst Rippert does not belong in the first paragraph

Despite the news headlines of late, Horst Rippert, an unknown Luftwaffe pilot, does NOT belong in the opening paragraph of this article. Wikipedia puts salient informaton first and least salient information last. Please, at the very least after this flurry of headlines (not even confirmable and sourced only by this man's soon-to-be-published memoir) ends, remove this from the opening paragraph. Thanks! I'm not even sure Antoine's death belongs in the opening paragraph. Softlavender (talk) 03:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I took it out. The entire affair has its own section and subsection; no need for an opening paragragh to include death info! Softlavender (talk) 02:07, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

NO hyphens, please!

Please keep the hyphens out of Saint Exupéry's name, and remove them when they crop up. Thanks! Softlavender (talk) 02:14, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The hyphen has been firmly established, dear Softlavender. If quoted from sources who use the hyphen, it must be kept! Kraxler (talk) 15:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

So, now we have an unhyphenated birth name, with a footnote confirming that, but a hyphenated name everywhere else in the article. We have to explain where the hyphen came from, and when and why it was introduced. As it stands at the moment, it looks very inconsistent and unprofessional. See also "Hyphen" below. (We really have to keep these discussions together.)-- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

The hyphened version is the standard version of the spelling of French names. That's where it came from, anybody in France who hears the name and writes it down would use a hyphen. What is "unprofessional" about stating the facts? Kraxler (talk) 17:57, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

What's unprofessional is that he started out life as Saint Exupéry but sometime later became Saint-Exupéry, yet we never explain when or why or how the change occurred. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 23:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Would you be so kind, and dig up the facts, and find the exact time when this happened? We know that it happened, and this is stated in the article, the WHY I explained above, but we are still ignorant as to the WHEN and BY WHOM... Besides, Wikipedia is "unprofessional" per se, since most articles are written by amateurs and Wiki was created to make it possible for anybody to edit it. Kraxler (talk) 12:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

If only I had the time or the skills. Surely someone must already know this.

Your last sentence completely baffles me. What is a person with such a low opinion of Wikipedia doing editing its articles? Once you become an editor, you're one of us, and you're duty bound to uphold the reputation of Wikipedia and do everything in your power to improve it, not undermine it from within. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 11:57, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

If you mean with "undermining" to criticise and then bow out, alleging lack of time, you're right: one should not do it. What I say above is a defense of the "unprofessional" editor who manages to give the correct info, independent of form and style. The format used before it was lately edited followed the usage of most other articles on artists who used pseudonyms. The way it is written now clutters up the opening paragraph unnecessarily. Besides, I'm editing as much as I can, but with over 3 million articles, I really can't improve them all. Although I have read an enormous amount of nonsense in Wikipedia, I do not criticise anybody for it. I correct, or I move on... Kraxler (talk) 14:39, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Credibility of Horst Rippert's story?

I'm starting to question the veracity of this man's story:

1. We have no one's word for it but Rippert's story, off of which he is possibly already making a lot of money, and off of which his book on the alleged event -- which he is (intentionally or not) promoting masterfully by these press articles -- is possibly going to make tons of money.
2. This is a real headliner story that has flown around the world because it sounds so cool and intriguing, not because anybody verified it. EDIT: NYT says that Rippert was discovered and contacted by the diver von Gartzen, so that adds more credibility to Rippert if that's how it played out. Although, Rippert waited 2 years to make the info public. (Why? So he could write a book first?)
3. German aerial combat records of July 31, 1944 list no downings of enemy aircraft in the Mediterranean, according to (unspourced) information added to this article on July 18, 2005 by 131.220.97.115.
4. The fragments found of Saint Exupery's plane showed no signs of combat.
5. Recently Rippert stepped forward, a mere four days after his famous brother Ivan Rebroff died, and claimed his immense estate. Even though Rebroff apparently had little or nothing to do with Rippert.
6. Rippert is a journalist, which means he knows how to manipulate the press and make money off of his writing. EDIT: OK, he's a television (sports) journalist, maybe not the same thing.

Sure, the story could certainly be true, but I'm just saying, don't automatically believe everything you read. Softlavender (talk) 22:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

PS: I edited my comments above to reflect the info in this NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/11/world/europe/11exupery.html?pagewanted=print Softlavender (talk) 03:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Jean-Pierre de Villers wrote a book in 2000 about a pilot who also claimed to have shot down Saint Exupery. His book is called "The Last Flight of the Little Prince". Here is the amazon.com link to the title and its discription: http://www.amazon.com/Last-Flight-Little-Prince/dp/1895873835/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207781012&sr=1-5 172.168.13.222 (talk) 22:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for posting that. As far as I can determine, the pilot in that book is fictional, as is the entire book. I added the book to the "Literary references" section of the article. Softlavender (talk) 09:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I find Rippert's story quite credible: a) why wait 60+ years to make a false claim; b) why make a false claim in '06 and then not begin to exploit it immediately? c) he claims he made diary entries--what's the date of those entries? MWShort (talk) 12:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by '06, since it's '08 now and he hasn't come forward before. The diary entry would have been in August 1944, but I do not know why no one to my knowledge seems to have tried to verify its existence, if in fact it still exists. Softlavender (talk) 23:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

The Times article states that von Gartzen called Rippert in July '06, at which time Rippert told von Gartzen that he had shot down de Saint Exupery. MWShort (talk) 11:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Well, it could be because he wanted to write his book first and get a publisher for it before announcing it to the world. What better way to have your book fly off the shelves? To me it's actually more alarming that he's just now made it public. That's the skeptical answer, anyway. Softlavender (talk) 22:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Before you continue speculating about Rippert´s credibility - read "Der Prinz, der Pilot und Antoine de Saint-Exupéry" bei Claas Triebel and Lino von Gartzen (published by Herbig, 2008 in german). There you will find everything you need - and to rewrite the article about the so-called-speculations in march 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.174.158.34 (talk) 07:16, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Rippert didn't write a book about this. There were two books published, a French and a German, but none of these were written by Rippert.--Sitacuisses (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Bringing out this story one month after the brother's (Rebroff/Rippert) death gave Rippert, who had not been famous unlike his internationally famous singer, the reason to be in the limelight. He worked in the sports department of ZDF TV, not on camera I don't think. His brother was not here any more to say 'this is concocted', that's why. I experienced how Rebroff was rather creative with the truth, so it is very likely that the brother was, too. The returned soldiers did not always talk much about the war, but if Horst Rippert could have been certain (from what?) that he had shot down St. Exupéry the younger brother would have heard. Families mostly get to know these things over time. I would give Rippert zero credibility. He just wanted to get in the press, too. 144.136.192.10 (talk) 04:03, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I would concur with the view stated by IP 144.136.192.10. As the article points out, there was a complete lack of supporting evidence (documentation, radio intercepts, etc...) for the day in question, leading to the valid conclusion that Rippert fabricated the details, either deliberately or otherwise (e.g. "false memory"). HarryZilber (talk) 12:40, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

It needs to be noted that Rippert brought out this story one month after his brother, the singer, had died who would have recalled what was said at the time. He waited, until nobody could refute his story. I have known the singer between 1966 and 1969 who was full of spin to further his own ends, fortune more precisely. He knew exactly what he could tell that people could not check up on. The Rippert brothers were estranged then, and while we met some of his friends, we did not meet his brother. I find Rippert's story about shooting down the writer not credible. 121.209.51.121 (talk) 04:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Suicide improvable and irrelevant

I am a great fan of Saint Exupéry, as no doubt many readers of his article and this talk page are. The idea of his suiciding is sad, but after wearily reading about his death for years, I begin to wonder whether it's provable, in any sense that Wiki likes to establish facts, and if it is the case, what difference it makes?

1. His aircraft not having major damage might suggest that he did suicide, but that is not proof in the sense that a farewell note is taken to be proof. The damage might be undetected (a block in a fuel line), or the damaged piece missing.
2. Saint Exupéry might have believed the plane was damaged, and tried to land it. The plane was old and probably not very airworthy, he was "old" (for a fighter pilot), was not a particularly careful pilot (yes, I can cite that given time), and had been raised in an era where the stall speed (landing speed) of airplanes made it conceivable to bail out even without a parachute - even though his plane had a much higher stall speed, this may not have entered in his calculations (this is not my point, but one I read). I.e., there may have been little or nothing wrong with the plane, and yet Saint Exupéry might decide to abandon it.
3. Unless the plane suffered catastrophic damage, say at high altitude, it is no proof that he did not commit suicide. I.e., he might have used a damaged plane as an excuse, and just given up. So plane damage is not "proof", one way or the other.
4. What difference would it make if he had committed suicide? Would anything he wrote be less true, less interesting? More interesting? Would people stop admiring him? Stop reading his books?

As I understand, many people stopped from suiciding are later grateful. If he had tried to suicide, and lived, would he have wanted this incident to be endlessly examined? There are so many important aspects to him. This global discussion isn't about him, not what the man what about, not about the legacy he left. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 15:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I'm personally not sure why you posted this here -- the article does not even mention the possibility of suicide. Softlavender (talk) 01:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Softlavender. The article, perhaps rightly, avoids a central issue as some see it. It's the reason such intense attention has been paid in international press over the discovery of his plane. The question of whether he committed suicide has been debated for years, unfortunately not only in tabloid presses. My feeling is that suicide is unpleasant, but not a reason to invalidate someone's lifetime accomplishments, and is therefore somewhat beside the point. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 09:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

There's no evidence that there was no major damage. Very little of the aircraft was recovered. 58.8.5.244 (talk) 02:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

"fragments ... showed no traces of combat" line removed

I removed the "It remains unclear why the fragments that were recovered of Saint Exupéry's P-38 showed no traces of combat" line [4] as aero-relic.org explains:

“ Right side - No specific element remains. The fin has been completely torn away, carrying away with it the right side if the boom. As the aicraft has been identified as a military Lightning, thus being a war machine, it was not appropriate to direct our investigations on suspect traces such as impacts, possibly coming from shots, either ground ones (AA/Flak) or aerial ones (7.92 and 13 mm bullets or 20 mm shells, as is the case for a P-38 lying in the Bay of La Ciotat).

In fact, after careful analysis of the surfaces of these remains, no particular mark or hole caused by possible shots could be found. In the light of the low percentage of recovered parts, this does not however preclude a crash due to shots, either ground or aerial ones. ”

58.8.5.244 (talk) 02:25, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen

Everyone refers to him as Saint-Exupéry; his books are published under that name. French legal documents and birth certificates have no bearing on what his name should be called; Mark Twain is Mark Twain not "Samuel Clemens" and so on. I know that an adopted pseudonym is not the same as a spelling difference, but the rule is to use the most common name. What did he sign his name as? What was he referred to as in the newspapers? shreevatsa (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 05:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I believe that the IPA pronunciation of "Antoine de Saint Exupery" in this article is a bit wrong. The lede indicates that the name is pronounced as follows: ɑ̃twan də sɛ̃tɛgzypeˈʀi. I'm not an expert, but this is my understanding of the French pronunciation: au-twon de san-tegz-yooh-pe-ree. (I'm using regular English since I'm not proficient with the phonetic alphabet.)

The first difference between this pronunciation and the pronunciation in the article is that, in this version, the "a" in "antoine" is pronounced "au," like the beginning of the English word "auto." The second difference is that, in this version, the "n" in "saint" is sounded out, not silent. The third difference here has to do with French pronunciation rules. Consonants that end French words are silent, unless the following word begins with a vowel. In this case the following word begins with an "e," causing the "t" in "saint" to be pronounced. In French, whenever this consonant-vowel coupling occurs, the two words in question are sounded out as one word or as if the final consonant of the first word is the first letter of the second word. As a result, in this case, one would pronounce the name as "saintexupery" or "sain texupery."

If anyone has a problem with changing the phonetics, please let me know. If not, I'll change it. I'm not proficient with the IPA, but I can take a stab at reworking the IPA spelling. Or someone who's good with the IPA can do it instead.

For those who are curious, check out http://www.acapela-group.com/text-to-speech-interactive-demo.html to hear the pronunciation by a French speaker. If you type in his full name, the site will sound the whole thing out for you. Cheers, ask123 (talk) 18:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Link for place of desert crash wrong?

The text says "... crashed in the Libyan Sahara desert en route to Saigon. [...] The crash site is believed to have been located in the Wadi Natrun." The Link of Wadi Natrun is to an article about the Wadi El Natrun. That Article says the Wadi described "is located in Beheira Governorate, Egypt".

I guess the link in the Article about Saint Exupery is inappropriate, becuase it points to a similarly named but different wadi. I suggest to remove the link. Derflohe (talk) 14:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The bio I checked isn't clear, but it says they were trying to fly to Egypt and to avoid Libya entirely -- and went seriously off course. They certainly didn't land near the city with large buildings pictured in the Wiki article ... but in desert! Anyhow, no harm done removing a Wiki link that appears incorrect, until someone finds definitive information. (Wiki links are often added fairly mechanically, without checking the target article.) Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 19:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Cafe Saint-Ex, Washington, DC

Café Saint-Ex in Washington, DC, is named after Antoine de Saint Exupéry. But that's not noteworthy enough to put in the article, is it? Quacks Like a Duck (talk) 02:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

General Bouscat

General René Bouscat commander of the Free French Air Force was partly responsible for the sojourn of Saint Exupéry in New York. After Saint Exupéry was grounded in 1943, he also used his position and contacts to convince General Eaker, to get him reinstated and flying with the prestigious group 2/33, based in Sardinia, despite his age, health and his reputation as a second rate pilote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichèleVassal (talk • contribs) 08:52, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Second-rate pilot in what sense? His reflexes were slower? He didn't know how to dogfight? He didn't obey the written or unwritten rules? That makes one second-rate only if some arbitrary absolute standards are applied. How many other pilots knew how to write well?

Sure Saint Exupéry pulled strings to fly. If you've lived around an airfield or pilots, you'll know there's nothing exceptional in that! Alpha Ralpha Boulevard (talk) 08:28, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

April 2011

It is claimed an unknown French soldier wearing French "colours" was washed on Carqueiranne beach. This is pure fiction. The French Acte de décès or death certificate quoted after L´Express speaks of a badly mutiladed body wearing fragments of clothing that resembled military garb. See the difference ? H.L. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.172.114.56 (talk) 11:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Period of Saint-Ex's works

Our infobox carries the notation of his writing work timeline, stating: "Period 1929–1948 (posthumous)" However we know that that covers his French publications only up to Citadelle. Is there an established protocol that describes the publication timeline of an author posthumously? HarryZilber (talk) 16:08, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Title of nobility

According to the French Wikipedia, his father was a "vicomte" (viscount), not a "comte" (count). Besides, before adding it again check where it stands in French names, "officially" (i.e. in French) it should be "Antoine Marie Jean-Baptiste Roger, vicomte [sic, lower case] de Saint Exupéry". Besides check if he or his brother inherited the title. Besides, give at least one example where he did indeed use the title, since the note says "rarely" but not "never", or change the note. Thank you for the research. Kraxler (talk) 17:01, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Kraxler: peerage titles are somewhat tricky to identify and properly depict. This biography, Seeing With The Heart, identifies Saint-Exupéry as "Le Comte de Saint-Exupéry", as described in the passage:

"Antoine de Saint Exupéry was born in Lyon on 29th June 1900 into a family with an aristocratic lineage extending back seven centuries. When his father died before his fourth birthday he inherited the title Le Comte de Saint-Exupéry (though he rarely used it)."

His younger brother Francois appears not to have inherited such a title, since he died at age 15 (Schiff, p.61). Regarding your observation of the usage of 'Viscount' on the French Wikipedia, I'm quite perplexed by it, since a 'Viscount' is the British equivalent to a 'Count'. I have no idea why they (the French Wikipedia) use such a title, but in any event it is largely irrelevant unless a reliable source citation can be found and is referenced.

I understand that since this article is in the English Wikipedia, English style syntax is required, which would require Saint-Ex's proper name to read as 'Count Antoine Marie...... etc...." Please provide an English Wikipedia MOS source saying otherwise if you would like to present his full name differently. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 14:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Very interesting, Harry. But what do you mean with "a 'Viscount' is the British equivalent to a 'Count'."? Also, since this is labelled "officially", the name should be given in French, his own language. The name in English (according to WP:MoS is used in the name of the article and as the commonly known name of the person throughout the article, but we are citing here his official name, as registered and/or used by the local (French) authorities. Also, one should not wikilink any part of the highlighted proper name in the introductory section. If the word "count" or "viscount" needs explanation, it should be done in the text later. I'm sure we can sort this out somehow, I might find the time to look up some more French sources later, to find the origin of the "vicomte" perhaps. In any case, I'd like to thank you for the big overhaul of the article. Kraxler (talk) 14:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Kraxler, please excuse my interpretation error related to the differences between 'comte' and 'vicomte'; they are of course nobilities of different ranks. That said, I keep finding numerous reliable sources stating that Saint-Exupéry and his father were both comtes, NOT vicomtes, such as this one from (a magazine which undoubtedly utilizes fact checkers):

"Time Magazine (1944) Milestones, Aug. 14, 1944. Missing in Action: Count Antoine de Saint Exupéry, Time Magazine, 14 August 1944. Quote: "Saint Exupery, veteran of over 13,000 flying hours, was grounded last March by a U.S. Army Air Forces officer because of age, was later put back into his plane... flew some 15 flak-riddled missions in a P-38 before his disappearance."

Additionally, the official Saint-Exupéry website's chronology for him, shown here as the caption of the first image at the very left, states categorically:

"Antoine Jean Baptiste Marie Roger de Saint-Exupéry naît le 29 juin 1900 au 8 rue Peyrat à Lyon 2e (aujourd'hui rue Saint-Exupéry). Après Marie-Madeleine (26/01/1897) et Simone (26/01/1898), il est le troisième enfant du comte Jean de Saint-Exupéry et de Marie, née Boyer de Fonscolombe."

Unless we can find a reliable source stating why his father, and therefore the author, should actually be considered Viscounts, then the preponderance of evidence requires us to use the rank of Count. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 00:02, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Quite correct, Harry. Thank you. Kraxler (talk) 13:24, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

References

Out of sequence

The sentence "Saint-Exupéry continued to write until the spring of 1943, when he left the United States with American troops bound for North Africa in World War II. " at the start of the "American and Canadian Sojourn..." section seems to me to be out of chronological sequence, as it is followed by his early WW2 posting with the 2/33rd recon squadron. I think there should also be a mention of his book "Pilote de guerre" ("Flight to Arras") here, as it is based on his experience flying reconnaissance on 22 May 1940.Hchalkley (talk) 15:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Hchalkley, yes the sentence is out of order chronologically. I consider it to be a mini-lede statement to that section, neatly summing up what Saint-Ex would experience over the coming two year period. It adds a touch of prose to the writing and was added years ago by one of the article's original writers, I believe, and I would prefer to keep it at the very beginning to the section. But I agree that we should be adding in at least a paragraph of material on the writing of Pilote de guerre. HarryZilber (talk) 15:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

References

De Gaulle allegation

The allegation that "de Gaulle struck back at the author by ... having his literary works banned in France's North African colonies" is not supported by the reference and is not credible.

De Gaulle only moved his headquarters from London to Algiers in May 1943 - a month *after* Saint-Exupéry rejoined the French air force in North Africa. Furthermore, de Gaulle's position within the Comité français de libération nationale (CFLN) was initially weak because of US and (to a lesser extent) British support for General Giraud and other former Pétainists.

It was only in the period from August to November 1943 that de Gaulle gradually came to dominate the CFLN. Far from imposing stricter controls on freedom of expression in North Africa, his growing influence actually saw the dismantlement of restrictions imposed by the Vichy régime, the release of political prisoners, the ending of anti-semitic laws, etc.

And even if de Gaulle had favoured censorship, why would he have wanted to ban the works of a pilot who was serving in his own air force? 86.44.72.234 (talk) 16:18, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The ban on Saint-Ex's works in Free France is noted in several reliable sources, including, I believe, Schiffe's bio, p. 214. Until the end of the war the Vichy and the Gaulists were at each other's throats, and Saint-Ex's lack of support to de Gaule and the resulting retaliations are described in detail in Webster's biography of Saint-Exupéry. Please see Paul Webster. Antoine de Saint-Exupéry: The Life And Death Of The Little Prince, London: Pan Macmillan, 1993, ISBN 333617029, ISBN 978-0333617021. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 01:03, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Caudron crash site en route to Saigon

Editor Handcuff36 has added new material next to the sentence describing Saint-Exupéry's crash site 'near' the Natrum Valley, saying: "Far from being in the Natrum Valley, he was in Lybia. Ref Terre des Hommes, last paragraph : Quand à toi qui nous sauve, Bédouin de Libye".

Referring to Wind, Sand and Starts, Handcuff talks of a Bedouin of Libya saving Saint-Exupéry and Prevost in Lybia. I'm parking this new material here for comment after having checked the original material cited as Schiff, p. 263, and confirmed that it does place Saint-Ex and Prevost' crash near to the area of the Wadi Natrum, and says directly: "It made no sense that he was back again, Wadi Natrun being somewhat off the beaten track...." (discussing the impressions of the woman the Bedouin took Saint-Ex and Prevost to).

I don't have a copy of WWS/TDH handy so can't confirm the new text. One thought that came to mind is that while the Bedouin on the camel was from Libya, he was actually passing by the Natrum Valley when he found them. Google Maps shows the Natrum to be about a 90 minute drive northwest of Cairo. HarryZilber (talk) 04:01, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Removal of Saint-Ex's quotations

User:John has removed the article's last section of twenty-odd quotations that another editor added several months ago, to our joint loss, i.m.h.o. John has listed a few WP help pages that he feels supports his decision to remove the quotes, namely (as provided in his last edit summary): "Quotations: WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NOT....".

While there's no outright prohibition against several quotations listed plainly in their own section, John is pointing to issues which he uses to support their exclusion. I wouldn't agree with WP:NOT which summarizes policy items on how to work towards a better encyclopedia. The list of 20 odd quotations doesn't appear excessive in an article of about 88 kB length since the quotations reflecting Saint-Ex's philosophies on life are not "an indiscriminate collection of information". As well, WP:NOR doesn't appear correct as quoting an author hardly constitutes original research. Quotes are exactly that: no OR is involved in repeating them word for word. That leaves WP:Verification, which will require some searching out of the quotes to provide their sources. Time permitting that shouldn't be an issue. Comments/suggestions on this are welcome. HarryZilber (talk) 17:04, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Period between 1935 and 1940?

I'm confused that there isn't a section on the period between the desert crash and his sojourn in North America, when he was in the French air force up to the French capitulation? 128.148.231.12 (talk) 17:43, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Simple reason: no one took the time to write it! (no copying allowed!) Please join in with this 'work in progress' and contribute. You can, as well start a new chapter of Souvenir Saint-Exupéry and solicit assistance. Best: HarryZilber (talk) 01:03, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

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