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Descendency
editI have no encyclopedical sources, still I do know for a fact that the Apollo Fox was derived from the Aeropro Eurofox with only subtle improvements. At the very least, it is not a direct copy from the Denney "mother design", whatever some sources may say. May I suggest that no direct relation from Denney to the Apollo Fox be mentioned, as long as the same does not occur for the Eurofox? Jan olieslagers (talk) 15:11, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- The only information we have on its lineage is Bertrand, Noel; Rene Coulon; et al: World Directory of Leisure Aviation 2003-04, page 123. Pagefast Ltd, Lancaster UK, 2003. ISSN 1368-485X which directly states it is a copy of the Kitfox. I suppose saying it is "derived" from the Kitfox is not totally at odds with that ref. What ref do we have that says it it derived from the Eurofox? - Ahunt (talk) 15:32, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- As yet, only my POV, such as looking at the various types when parked at some fly-in... I would recommend we should be conservative, and have our reserves about this "Bertrand" reference. After all, I have no grounds to declare it "unreliable", but what makes it "encyclopedically reliable"? But I can quite live with removing the link to the Eurofox - it is obvious to anybody not totally blind, but I must agree I have no scientific proof to offer. Jan olieslagers (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- We do have a sort of consensus on the reliability of the World Directory of Leisure Aviation at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moyes Litespeed. Okay, well I just removed the Eurofox note until we can find a source for it, then. - Ahunt (talk) 17:14, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks very much for constructive discussion and correct action. I should like to see a reference to the Eurofox, but have none to offer; so that it will have to remain like this, till further notice, iow until better references come up. Kudos! Jan olieslagers (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Collaboration works! Let's see if we can find a ref linking the Apollo Fox to the Eurofox. - Ahunt (talk) 17:27, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- I think I found a useful ref to support your text. It is written in Finnish, by a Eurofox dealer, but seems to be accurate. - Ahunt (talk) 17:40, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Cheese us, that's impressive research! My Finnish proficiency being at zero dot zero I'd have to leave it to you - or would they have a page in Swedish, too, as is not uncommon, there? Feel free to send a link! Jan olieslagers (talk) 17:44, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- I have added it to the article. I admit that my Finnish is a bit weak, but Google Translate filled in. - Ahunt (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- We certainly seem to be on the good way. Still I have my reserves about the Eurofox being simply a "metric conversion" of the Denney design; surely the US'an design never cared about 450/472,5 kg weight limits? Also: much as the Finnish reference suits my purpose, I must admit it raises some doubts, too; for one example, the people behind the Lambert design are sure to staunchly deny any relation, apart from the laws of physics, which will anyway bring similar designs for similar requirements. I have a feeling - but this is merely a feeling, I'd never know how to substantiate it - that the Eurofox incorporates more changes than metric conversion. Jan olieslagers (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- The search for more detailed WP:RS continues. So far I think all the sources we have for this subject are a bit oversimplified, although getting closer to what actually happened. - Ahunt (talk) 18:47, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- We certainly seem to be on the good way. Still I have my reserves about the Eurofox being simply a "metric conversion" of the Denney design; surely the US'an design never cared about 450/472,5 kg weight limits? Also: much as the Finnish reference suits my purpose, I must admit it raises some doubts, too; for one example, the people behind the Lambert design are sure to staunchly deny any relation, apart from the laws of physics, which will anyway bring similar designs for similar requirements. I have a feeling - but this is merely a feeling, I'd never know how to substantiate it - that the Eurofox incorporates more changes than metric conversion. Jan olieslagers (talk) 18:40, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- I have added it to the article. I admit that my Finnish is a bit weak, but Google Translate filled in. - Ahunt (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Cheese us, that's impressive research! My Finnish proficiency being at zero dot zero I'd have to leave it to you - or would they have a page in Swedish, too, as is not uncommon, there? Feel free to send a link! Jan olieslagers (talk) 17:44, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- I think I found a useful ref to support your text. It is written in Finnish, by a Eurofox dealer, but seems to be accurate. - Ahunt (talk) 17:40, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Collaboration works! Let's see if we can find a ref linking the Apollo Fox to the Eurofox. - Ahunt (talk) 17:27, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks very much for constructive discussion and correct action. I should like to see a reference to the Eurofox, but have none to offer; so that it will have to remain like this, till further notice, iow until better references come up. Kudos! Jan olieslagers (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- We do have a sort of consensus on the reliability of the World Directory of Leisure Aviation at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Moyes Litespeed. Okay, well I just removed the Eurofox note until we can find a source for it, then. - Ahunt (talk) 17:14, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- As yet, only my POV, such as looking at the various types when parked at some fly-in... I would recommend we should be conservative, and have our reserves about this "Bertrand" reference. After all, I have no grounds to declare it "unreliable", but what makes it "encyclopedically reliable"? But I can quite live with removing the link to the Eurofox - it is obvious to anybody not totally blind, but I must agree I have no scientific proof to offer. Jan olieslagers (talk) 15:50, 1 February 2020 (UTC)