Talk:Ardian (given name)

Edits after this are an apologetic rhetoric irrelevant to the article state.Megistias (talk) 15:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Your additions will be removed as they are completely inappropriate.Megistias (talk) 21:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you removed them yourself Clement as this is not an apologetic board.Megistias (talk) 09:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Clement's version of the article contains

• apologetics
• (OR) etymologies
• POV
• unreliable sources
• unverifiable sources in albanian
• links to a forum
• behind forum

Megistias (talk) 10:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Its quite important or else the reader doesn't know what we are talking about.On most articles we add the ref's whole.diffMegistias (talk) 12:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Edits

Whats with all the spaces? Its not readable like that.Megistias (talk) 12:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. I guess I'm on the right page. My husband's sister is awaiting a second child and she and her husband are looking for a name for their baby boy. One of the names she prefered is Ardijan, after her uncle, a name pretty common among Albanians. Given that I'm a former Albanian shool teacher she asked if I could get some history of Ardijans ('Ardianet' in Albanian), the Illyrian tribe from which this name comes. So I typed 'the History of Ardian' and surfed right on this wikipedia article.Article is ok, more or less, although it does not give too much information. However, I have a couple of more important remarks to make, if the authors of this article are open to suggestions. First, the par saying that Albanians normally associaty this word eith the name od Ardiaei is ok, but I belive it is important to stress that the the word 'Ardian' or 'Ardijan' (a more frequent form) is literally a singular form of the word 'Ardianet', and 'Ardianet' is Albanian way of saying 'Ardians' or 'Ardiaeans', as they put it in the book you cited, or Ardiei in Latin. If you want to say 'Ardiaeans' or 'Ardiaei' in Albanian, you say 'Ardianet'. If you remove the suffix (the ending) 'et' from that word, you get the singular - 'Ardian', as in 'a Ardiean', 'one Ardiean' ( Alb. 'nje Ardian'), 'two Ardieans'(Alb. 'dy Ardiane'), 'the Ardiaeans' ( 'Ardianet').Second, the part saying this is a communist-cunstructed name is a bit of an overstatement, if you ask me. While on one hand it is true that the communist regime of Ever Hoxha promoted Illyrian names, this one in particular is not constructed or minted by communists, on the other. Ardian is a plain Albanian grammar so the communist did not construct this word. They may have used used it to turn it into a personnal name, for whatever reason, but the word Ardian as such is Albanian and in accordance with Albanian grammar, so it wasn't the communists that constructed it. I wouldn't even use the word 'communist' alone at all, for it's too broad and it may lead to a wrong conclusion, like this is some ideological communist name.I would rephrase that part to something like this: "Illyrian tribe-names like this one were once used by the regime of Enver Hoxha and turned into personal names to emphasize the supposed Illyrian descent of Albanians in Albania..." or the like. I believe that would be a much more accurate statement. Besides, the reference the authors provided for that particular part of the article does not really support the statement. None of the quotations from the book I read there say that Ardian is a name created by communists, do they? It may be implicable, but it doesn't say that. So, if the authors are open to suggestions, in order to improve this article, they might want to consider the above suggestion, in the good spirit.Cheers.Dita.--Afrodita Ungjini (talk) 21:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Please provide a reference for any claims. For all respective purposes the name is in effect a variant of Hadrian - Adrian. Ardiaei were not even located in the territory of modern Albania.Megistias (talk) 21:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, this article has to do with a personal name, not a tribe and modern translation of its name in Albanian.Megistias (talk) 22:00, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Certainly.I am glad to be of some assistance.So, lets' go chronologically. First, my claim that Ardian is grammatically a singular form of Ardianet (Ardianet being Albanian for Ardiaeans or Ardiaei)can be confirmed by consulting any Albanian grammar book to see that the ending "et" is an Albanian plural ending in definite, as in malet,(http://www.101languages.net/albanian/grammar.html), etc. The quickest way is perhaps to check that site on Illyrian tribes in english, and just go to Albanian version by clicking 'Shqip', and you will see what the Albanians call Illyrian tribes in their language-e.g. Ardianet ( Ardiaei or Ardiaeans), Albanet ( Albani), Delmatet ( Delmatae), etc. You will see that if you want to say Ardiaeans or Ardiaei in Albanian, you say 'Ardianet', and if you extract the suffix 'et' from that owrd you get the singular form: 'Ardian' or ' Ardijan', which is used also as a personal Albanian name. As for showing that Albanians consider 'Ardian' to be different from 'Adrian' there is the book called 'Fjalor me emra njerzish', written by A. Kostallari, M.Domi, P.Daka, S. Mansaku, published by 'Sh.B. 8 Nentori, Tirane' in 1982. Here it is clearly shown that 'Adriatik' is one name and 'Ardian' another (http://www.scribd.com/doc/19137418/Fjalor-Me-Emra-Shqiptar). The book which indicates the same thing, in addition to indicating that 'Ardian' comes from the name of anciant Illyrian tribe is the book called 'aa5043 emra shqip er femije', by Hasan Hasani, published by Faik Konica in 2001 (http://openlibrary.org/b/OL3633930M/5043_emra_shqip_për_fëmijë). You can also easily clarify that: a)Albanians generally treat 'Ardian' as a name different from 'Adrian', and b.) that Albanians generally associate this name with the Illyrian tribe of Ardiaei ( Ardianet in Albanian language) if you just surf the net or speak to an Albanian. Here are some pages that may not be considered a primary source, of course, but they more than certainly show the Albanians associate Ardian with Ardianet ( Ardiaei or Ardiaeans):1. http://www.aboutnames.ch/albanian.htm, 2. http://www.20knames.com/male_albanian_names.htm, 3. http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/category-albanian-names.html, 4. http://www.albanian.com/v4/showthread.php?t=26803, etc. It's actually simple maths. You may also just type in: 'albanian names' on the internet, and you 'll see that the vast majority of sources there say the same thing I am saying.Just look for word 'Ardianet' and you'll see that this is an Albanian translation of 'Ardiaeans' or 'Ardiaei' (except in one place where they wrote 'Adrianet', etither by mistake or because the author thought that's one and the same thing). As for your claim that Ardiaeans were not located in the territory of modern Albania, here is a citation sombody provided in support of that "communist-constructed names" statement (source No. 5. in the article 'Ardian' under 'References', from the book of Miranda Vickers: "Illyrian tribes who lived further inland, and other towns-such as Lissus (Lezhe), which eventually became part of the Illyrian state of Ardiaeans-grew up".) Whether or not the original tribe of Ardiaei lived in Albania does not challenge the sources which clearly state that the word Ardiaei (either as a tribe, dynasty or a state) was present in Albania at one point in history. After all, do you think that the 'Lonley Planet', one of the most reputable Tourist Guides in the world today would ever write this: "Inevitably the expanding Illyrian kingdom of the Ardiaei, based at Shkodra, came into conflict with Rome, which sent a fleet of 200 vessels against Queen Teuta in 229 BC. A long war resulted in the extension of Roman control over the entire Balkan area by 167 BC."(http://www.lonelyplanet.com/albania/history) just like that? Just for those who may not now, Shkodra adn Lezha are in Albania. After all, even if we take that the Ardiaei had absolutely nothing to do with Albania, Ardian, which is a singular form of Ardianet (Albanian for Ardiaei or Ardiaeans) is a name more popular among Albanians then among any other nations. This being so, this personal name, Ardian, inevitably has to do with both "a tribe and modern translation of its name in Albanian". There is a clearly evident connection here and I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned in the article. On the other hand, I am curious as why the author, or the authors feel that the "communist-onstructed names" statement is relevant, especialy in view of the fact that there is no proof or evidence that Ardian, the name has something to do with that. The source provided does not actually support the following statement in the article: "Ardian is one of many communist-constructed names, which are popular among Albanians even today to emphasize a supposed descent from ancient Illyrians, particularly since the time of the Communist regim". First there are few citations from few different pages mentioning the Ardiaeans which I see no relevance of.Then comes a statement on page 196 saying: "From time to time official lists were ublished with pagan, so-called Ilylrian or freshly minted names considered approproate for the new breed of revolutionary Albanians.One such name which became quite popular was Marenglen, a corruption of Marx Engles and Lenin."I see no Ardian mentioned anywhere in that source (unless it is in the footnote somewhere). Thus, whoever created the abovementioned statement about the "communist-constructed" names, that person or persons did not provide proper reference, as far as I am concerned. It may be an attempt to lead into the conclusion implicit in the statement, but the source does not say what the statement in the article does. That's my observation.Greetings.Dita.--Afrodita Ungjini (talk) 20:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

The websites you cite are not reliable sources, nor are those publications. Please read what Reliable sources are Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources. Megistias (talk) 20:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I clearly stated that I was not using the websites as reliable sources. I used them to show you what the Albanians themselves think about this name (a.) they associate it with Ardiaeans, the vast majority, and b.)treat Ardian as different from Adrian). Please read my comment more carefully. I cited two books as reliable sources. On the other hand, I am not sure that the source No. 5. under 'References' (Miranda Vickers) is reliable, for it does not mention the name Ardian anywhere, let lone say that this is a "communist-constructed" name.--Afrodita Ungjini (talk) 20:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

What the Albanians think of the name or associate with the name is irrelevant. Or what googling produces. To claim anything a reliable source is needed. There is not even a source claiming that this name is anything other than a variant of Hadrian-Adrian. This article should be redirected to Adrian.

• Its clear you are not a new user and i hope you are not someone's 2nd account.Megistias (talk) 20:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well, I don't really think it is irrelevant what the Albanians think about one of their most popular personal names because:a.) this is a popular albanian name, b.) it represents a singular form of the word Ardianet (Ardiaeans), c.) there aren't any sources on this name available in English ( and the sources No. 1 and 5. under the 'References' do not mention 'Ardian' and as such they are not reliable), in which case I will cite one of the rules of Wikipedia: "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources should be used in preference to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material. When quoting a source in a different language, provide both the original-language quotation and an English translation, in the text or in a footnote. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians. When citing a source in a different language, without quotations, the original and its translation should be provided if requested by other editors: this can be added to a footnote, or to the talk page if too long for a footnote. If posting original source material, editors should be careful not to violate copyright; see the fair-use guideline." In that sense. sources No. 1 and No. 5 on the article do not comply with the rules here because they do not mention the word Ardian, let alone say anything about the name Ardian, correct? I don't know if you're the author but whover it is, they might want to consider the above. As for the last statement of yours, the answer is, no, I am not a new in Wikipedia.I jhave been using Wikipedia for quite some time now. I don't see why would that be a problem? As for this "somone's second account", would you mind explaining that please?--Afrodita Ungjini (talk) 21:12, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

This is about a personal name not about the plural translation in modern Albanian of an ancient tribe.This the only secondary source mentioning Ardian and it is also unverifiable. Hasani, Hasan (2006). 5555 Emra shqip per femije. Faik Konica. Prishtine. p.13.ISBN: 9951-06-127-3. The article will then be deleted as it is not notable.Megistias (talk) 22:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well Hasani is not verifiable and Fjalor Me Emra Shqiptar is a book published in a Totalitarian state, communist Albania. That makes it an unreliable source. So this would mean that we have no sources at all.Megistias (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Well hasani is unfortunately unverifiable and there is no link proven between the Albanian language and Illyrian, let alone a name from a tribe unrelated even geographically with Albania. We know the name exists as it is used by people. Megistias (talk) 22:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Megistias, I really did my best and didn't find any sources in english about the popular albanian name, Ardian. The best ones I found are in Albanian language, but as far as I know, Wikipedia allows us to use non-English sources if there are no sources in english, and in the case of this personal name, Ardian, there aren't any. As for your comments like :"This is about a personal name not about the plural translation in modern Albanian of an ancient tribe."- Well, I believe that I already explained to you that Ardian is literaly a singular form of the word Ardianet, which is Albanian word for the name of ancient Illyrian tribe of Ardiaei or Ardiaeans. Although there is no direct source that shows this particular example, this can be easily seen at the examples I provided to you above (Wikipedia on Illyrian tribes in Albanian language, just to show you that Ardianet means Ardiaeans/Ardiaei in Albanian language, interent pages on Albanian names, etc.). After all, where does it say that internet is an unreliable source? "This the only secondary source mentioning Ardian and it is also unverifiable. Hasani, Hasan (2006). 5555 Emra shqip per femije. Faik Konica. Prishtine. p.13.ISBN: 9951-06-127-3."-That's the only one I could find and I'll try to scan a page and send it out to make it more verifiable. "The article will then be deleted as it is not notable.Megistias (talk) 22:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)". Why are you informing me about that. I didn't put it there. You're the administrator, you can do whatever you like. "Well Hasani is not verifiable and Fjalor Me Emra Shqiptar is a book published in a Totalitarian state, communist Albania.That makes it an unreliable source. So this would mean that we have no sources at all.Megistias (talk) 22:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)"- I am not sure that this particular argument of yours is valid and complying with the Wikipedia rules, so being that you are an administrator I would appreciate if you show me the wikipedia rule according to which a source cannot be used if it comes from a totalitarian regime. On the other hand it strikes me that being an administrator, you didn't spot that sources No. 1 and especially source No. 5 in the 'Ardian' article are not relevant. They are not about the name, Ardian. They don't even mention that name, let alone say something about it. Also you say:"there is no link proven between the Albanian language and Illyrian, let alone a name from a tribe unrelated even geographically with Albania",- first, the link between Albanian and Illyrian is irelevant, and it is not necessary for a word to be provenly Illyrian to be Albanian. For example if you want to say " the Greeks" in Albanian, you say "Greket", and if you want to say "a Greek" you say "Grek". So, "Greket" and "Grek" are Albanian words for "The Greeks" and "a Greek". A word does not to be Illyrian in origin to be used commonly in Albanian language. It's so simple. As for your claim:"a name from a tribe unrelated even geographically with Albania, I wouldn't bet on that, becase there is a clear-cut and reliable source precisely in that 'Ardian' article (source No. 5) saying that Ardiaei/Ardiaeans had their state in Albania. I provided some more authorative sources that associate Ardiaei wiht Albanian above, like that Lonely Planet. I am sure you would hold that source credible enough. However, connection between Albanian and Illyrian Ardiaeans has no relevance for this personal name. The name is just there and't that's a fact, and the fact is that Ardian numericaly to be found among Albanians more then with any other people. Go to interet and count it. Just take a look. Finally, there's another discrepancy in the article. If the name is just a variant of Adrian ( a name obviously older than communism) how on earth can it be a "communist-constructed name". Don't you see the point? I am surprised that you as an administrator would not have noticed all these indiscrepancies and iregularites, things that obviously do not comply with the wikipedia rules?!! If sources in Albanian language are not allowed, why do you allow the sources in English that are clearly irrelevant and lacking credibility (source No. 1 and source No. 5 under the reference)? What's the point?Greetings. Dita.--Afrodita Ungjini (talk) 18:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Show me the source that elaborates the personal name Ardian.Megistias (talk) 19:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The article changed a few times before you posted and you commented mostly on a previous state of it.Megistias (talk) 19:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I already showed you two sources: the book of Hasan Hasani enitled '5943 emra Shqip per femije' ( "5943 names for your child"), which we unfortunately cannot "open" on the internet, although it is one of the popular Albanian baby names book, and the second available on internet is the book called: "'Fjalor me emra njerzish', written by A. Kostallari, M.Domi, P.Daka, S. Mansaku, published by 'Sh.B. 8 Nentori, Tirane' in 1982.", which strangely enough you refute as some book "written in a totalitarian regime", without providing some further expanation to this rather nonchalant statement. This I must admit is a pretty daring comment from an administrator, who should be politically neutral and know better than that, to be honest No offence, it's not personal. It's just my logical observation.Where does it say that books published in Albania under Enver Hoxha should be considered unreliable? In the end, what does a regime have to do with this name? As regards the name itself, if you ever wondered why is there no source elaborating on this name, the answer might be very simple- there's nothing to eaborate on, Ardian literally means 'an Ardiaean' in Albanian language because it's a singular form of 'Ardianet', and 'Ardianet' in Albanian means Ardiaeans ( Ardiaei etc.). This is why nobody elaborated on the structure and etymology of this popular Albanian names. Again, it's easy to confirm this just by typing the word 'Ardianet' on the internet or simply switching the english version of Wikipedia article on Illyrian tribes to Albanian language version. That's really all I can help with in regard to this name, but if I find something more on the go (as my sister-in-law is searching for some names for her baby too) I'll be glad to share that with you. In the meantime, I see that sombody changed the article so some of my comments above are no loger valid, you're right. However, I still don't understand why is the source from Miranda Vickers' book, "The Albanians" used in the article, and it does not refer to the name Ardian in any way, as far as I can see? It doesn't even mention the name Ardian.Greetings.Dita.--Afrodita Ungjini (talk) 13:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes i fully acknowledge that the name exists (there are examples of people having it) and is used by Albanians. But more data is needed for the name's linguistic elaboration. Megistias (talk) 14:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be more concerned with other issues, this article is just for the personal name. Many of the things you speak of have to do with Origin of the Albanians and not on just a personal name.Megistias (talk) 14:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

No certain link exists between the Albanian language, certainly even more so for modern Albanian language and "Illyrian names", also Ardian was not an Illyrian personal name.Megistias (talk) 14:52, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

How can you connect that name with the communist regime in Albania?!! Honestly i know that you are Greek and i know that your mission is to misinform people regarding Albanians, their tradition and their history. And as for the link between Illyrian sand Albanians, you have so many that its not even funny to mention them. For examlpe what does the word Illyrian means in today modern GREEK ?!! Nothing at all, but in modern Albanian the word ILLYRIAN mean I LIRE , meaning being FREE. I can go one and one with the names used by Illyrians, and show you that those name have perfectly meaning IN ALBANIAN not in GREEK. This you can say even for the names of the So called Ancient Greek Gods, which for some reason their names don't have meaning in greek , but have meaning in Albanian, modern Albanian!!! Does this mean that you guys are trying to steal our history?!!! Example the name of the god-es Aphrodite , in ALBANIAN means exactly CLOSE DAY , im talking about modern albanian. AFER=Close and DITA=DAY.

And one more think the page of the book that you are referring to , in no sentence or Fraze mentions that the name Adrian wasn't used before by Albanians !!! That page didn't mention the name Ardian AT ALL my dear greek friend, didn't mention at all. Thats what i have to say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IceFireSoul (talk • contribs) 15:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Please restore the page, your edits are unbased. diff,you even added, The word Illyrian in modern Albanian means being free = I LIRE. This is original research to say the least (and irrelevant).Megistias (talk) 20:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Please note - I am not the person who left the comment above without the signature, regardless of whether or not I share some or none of his opinion! I did not want to talk on this page, until I learned enough about the regulations of Wikipedia, but I felt it was necessary to say this so that I am not blamed for that comment. It is not mine. I agree with lady above and this other (unsigned) person below her that the reference about communist names is irrelevant, but I dont think I would just go there and erase somone's sentence after all the misunderstandings and conflicts that happened here, partly due to my ignorance and laziness to learn the rules.Personaly, I want to distant myself from those who fight on the main article, whoever they are, Greek, Albanian, Turkish, Indian. I don't judge people based on theri race, religion or nation, no way. My first edits on main articles were not with ill intentions. It was unknowing and I am very sorry for that. Now I understand it is necessary to first consult with editors on the discussion page.This is why I decided to appear again on this page - to avoid any possible misunderstanding.Thank you on your understanding.--Daesitiates (talk) 14:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Thats ok, dont stress over wikipedia.I really just want to see a source on this name if possible.Megistias (talk) 14:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Merge with Adrian

Propose to merge with Adrian. Other than this name existing, in effect nothing is written about it in modern bibliography, or any for that matter. Its established that the name exists but that is pretty much it.Megistias (talk) 20:59, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I join the editors above who claim Ardian is not the same as Adrian and this is why I personally don't think this name should merge to article Adrian.That's my opinion if we are voting. Also, I think Aferdita made a good point about the name-that Ardian simply means single form of Ardianet.I must admit I forgot that.One can see that you are a language teacher of Albanian.Very good observation. --Daesitiates (talk) 15:56, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Weighing on the other side that the slim chance that it is not, there is the overwhelming fact that all other cultures having Adrian and Hadrian and variances of it stem the name from the same source. Megistias (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposal

Megistias, I really think there is more than enough evidence that Albanian name Ardian does not derive from Adrian (Hadrianus). If nothing, one can take a look at the only reference provided in the article Ardian ( the book "The Albanians" by Miranda Vickers) where she uses the word "Ardiaeans". She does not say "Adriaeans" but "Ardiaeans" and one can clearly see the root-word "Ard..." not "Adr..." On the other hand, that same reference, which was provided for the sentence in the main article saying: " Ardian is one of many communist-constructed names..." obviously says nothing about the personal name Ardian and most importantly it does not say or indicate that "Ardian is one of many communist-constructed names..."(unless one makes presumptional conclusions, which is not allowed by Wikipedia). You can see I am not the only one here who noticed that the reference provided for that sentence is inappropriate. So I would like to propose to you really friendly, without any spite or conflicting intentions that you consider taking that sentence out. Again, I don't really mean any spite or fight, but that sentence is really not supported by the reference provided and it turns to be more like some preusmtion.I think my proposal is fair. Let's be fair this time. I am really suggesting friendly that you consider removing it, no fight, spite or conflict, honestly, I just wish we are capable of finding some reasonable compromise here and get back to our lives, if you are willing, and I don't see why you wouldn't be?--Daesitiates (talk) 10:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no established link between Albanians and Illyrians, see Origin of the Albanians, also this name does not appear in the middle ages or in the antiquity or in other way in a modern neutral linguistic source. The reference need not list all imaginary Communist constructed names, as it is obvious that this name is a construct, or a variant of Hadrian, as all other instances of it is WP:OBVIOUS. But to make sure of anything, like that it is not, we need a neutral linguistic source elaborating the origin of the name. With a neutral linguistic source mentioning it we will either merge it or leave it alone. But in a change in the position of an "r" does not constitute a new name. The WP:OBVIOUS is that it is a variant of Adrian but at the same time that Albanians today think that it has another origin, because of communist nationalism of the past.

• I suggest merging it to Adrian, as it is WP:OBVIOUS but to add a small note on the side of the name that the Albanians today believe that the name is of Illyrian origin, (but that is not substantiated, its clear its not Illyrian under any circumstances).Megistias (talk) 10:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually its already in the Adrian article. For years now.Megistias (talk) 10:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The belief that Ardian is Illyrian, is a drop of National_mysticism .Megistias (talk) 11:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Megistias, I never said Ardian is an Illyrian name. Rather, I am supporting what Aferdita is saying: Ardian is an Albanian word meaning literaly "an Ardiaean".This is WP:OBVIOUS if one looks at the way the word Ardiaei is translated in Albanian Wikipedia. It is translated as Ardianet. So, Ardianet means Ardiaei in Albanian and it is plural form. Single form is Ardian. So, Ardian is not an Illyrian word but an Albanian word for a member of the Illyrian tribe of Ardiaei.This is a linguistic fact. I see no reason to go into reasons here becase I did not intent to trasform this article into a political one. there are other pages we could politicize about and drag on about our frustrations over this or that nationalizm and history. We can leave this article free of politics. Also, I really don't see why you refuted all the references that Aferdita provided? She is right. It does say in the Wikipedia rules that if there is no reliable source in English, and there aren't any on this name, we can use non-English ones. In this sense, what definately does not seem obvious to me and the other two editors here is the sentence:"Ardian is one of many communist-constructed names..." I am sorry but I really don't see where does it say in the reference that Ardian is one of many communist-constructed names? This isn't really there, directly or indirectly.So, my proposal is to remove that sentence altogether and consider accepting at least one of the references Aferdita proposed.--Daesitiates (talk) 13:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Aferdita never proposed any verifiable reliable sources that prove anything special. The list of baby names that one of the books are showed that the name exists but we have people with the name for that as well. It also offered no other data on it. The other book is not verifiable and the modern translation from a modern language (Albanian) of an ancient tribal name is completely irrelevant to its correlation to a personal name. If the name is not communist contstruct, or its a weave of unreal modern mythos has been built around it then its just a variant of Ardian. Thats obvious. Megistias (talk) 14:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

I think that now, its neutral and covers the issue clearly.Megistias (talk) 14:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Megistias. I would like to thank you for your cooperation. This article in my opinion now looks much more nautral and objective. The only minor change I would propose in the first sentence, if you agree of course, is to say something like :" Despite an obvious similarity with the name Adrian, Latin...., Albanians generally associate this name with Ardiaei..." or something like that, and then we could finally get back to life, I hope. Thanx agian many times for removing that sentence. I appreciate that very much really.--Daesitiates (talk) 14:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

DoneMegistias (talk) 15:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

And Thanks again indeed. I don't want to sound pathetic, but I now feel an incredible relief that this "misunderstanding" is finaly over for me so I can return to normal life again. Thanx again.--Daesitiates (talk) 15:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Greetings everyone. Daesitiates, thanks for supporting my observation. Obviously you must be an Albanian speaker since you figured out the grammatical logic behind this name. To be honest, I am surprised no-one else did. Like I said, it takes one to go to the Wikipedia articles on Illyrian tribes in English, spot the Ardiaei and then just switch to Albanian language Wikipedia version and one will instatnly notice that Albanian translation for Ardiaei is Ardianet, the singular form being Ardian. In addition, I provided some sources on the internet clearly identifying Ardian as a name separate from Adrian and stemming from Ardianet, but administrator Megistias didn't like them, and you or anyone else here did't respond either. Well, not a big deal. I was just trying to help, and I belive I provided best sources one can find on this name. What had me stunned is that amdinistrator Megistias qualified one of the sources I provided (http://www.scribd.com/doc/19137418/Fjalor-Me-Emra-Shqiptar) as irrelevant because it was written by "a totalitarian regime". That kind of reasoning is really strange and wierd, especially for someone who is an administrator here, someone who decides about the content of an article. That reaction of his made me question his impartiality so I tried harder and found a source that no reasonable Wikipedian would refuse. If he refuses this one, in the absence of any one in English, then there's something really strange going on in here.So, here comes the source that I found in support of the first statement in the article 'Ardian': Zoto, Vladimir, ”FJALOR EMRASH”, Sh.B. Desara, Tiranë 2005, p. 42.(so, it's written in a democratic Albanian, just few years ago, so it can't be totalitarian, can it?). On page 42 the author says: "Ardian-Emër mashkullor që vjen nga emri përgjithësues ardianët, ose ardiejtë.Këta ishin një fis ilir, banorë të krahinës Ardia në Dalmati që përmenden që në shekullin e katërt para erës së re.Kryeqendra e tyre ishte fillimisht Risiniumi e më pas Shkodra.Ardiana është forma femërore më e përdorur e emrit.Ardi,Ardia përdoren si forma të shkurtuara….” Translation: “Ardian-A masculine name that stems from a proper name of Ardianet, or Ardijejt. The latter were an Illyrian tribe and the inhabitants of the region of Ardia in Dalmatia, mentioned in 4th cetruy B.C. Their initial capital city was Risinium, and later on Shkodra. Ardiana is a femnine form of this name. Abreviated forms like Ardi and Ardia are in use too…”.Discard the historical data. Just stick to the part saying that this name, Ardian comes from Ardianet. That's all we need here for you said this page is only about a name, no politics or history. So be it. So, my proposal to administrator Megistias, the user Daesitiates, and other parties involved in this discussion is to admit this source into the main article as this is so far probably the best one you can find, and there isn't any in English. So, once again, the source is: Zoto, Vladimir, ”FJALOR EMRASH”, Sh.B. Desara, Tiranë 2005, p. 42.Thank you all. By the way, don't mind me making a small correction, my name is actually Afrodita, not Aferdita, although the latter is a much more common Albanian name.Warmest.--Afrodita Ungjini (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Ardianet- is irrelevant to this article its merely the rendition of an ancient tribal name, retained in Latin and Greek, uttered in modern Albanian .Take some time to read Origin of the Albanians, it will be helpful. Megistias (talk) 21:44, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Afrodita, I think Megistias is right about your grammatical explanation about the word Ardianet. When I though about it again, I agree with him here.Your grammatical explanation is logical but only to somone who speaks Albanian. There is nothing available on that in English, so people who don't speak Albanian may not trust it. I now belive that Megistias produced a neutral version of the text and I am happy with the way it is right now.Additional refrence for the part of the text where it says "citation needed" you can add later when you find one you agree about. If you think your book is good for that, talk with Megistias and other members, it's up to you guys, but I decided I am happy with the article as it is right now so I am out of this for now. All I can say is that the best results in Wikipedia are achieved with mutual compromise. Maybe you can be more realistic on that grammar part Afrodita and give up on that, and in turn maybe Megistias can see that book you are suggesting. I am sure comprimise is possible. Also, he is right about some attempts of some people to use false connections beteen Albanian and Illyrian.I realized he knows lot more about that than I thought, but that is maybe better to discuss on some other pages. Anyway, Wikipedia works best with concensus and mutual compromise, yes, that's true.Respectfully.P.S. i am sorry for calling you Aferdita, it is a common mistake, it is similar (kerkoj ndjese)--Daesitiates (talk) 16:31, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

• Hello. I also trace same name origin, including Albanian. I agree with you Desitates it is hard to find a source in english showing that Albanian name Ardian comes from Ardiei but Afordita offered a good source in Albanian. I checked it too and it is on the internet(http://library.seeu.edu.mk/index.php?lvl=notice_display&id=166), and she translated it from Albanian into English. Afrodita, I will copy and paste here in this paragraph the source details from your response above, if its ok: Zoto, Vladimir, ”FJALOR EMRASH”, Sh.B. Desara, Tiranë 2005, p. 42.On page 42 the author says: "Ardian-Emër mashkullor që vjen nga emri përgjithësues ardianët, ose ardiejtë.Këta ishin një fis ilir, banorë të krahinës Ardia në Dalmati që përmenden që në shekullin e katërt para erës së re.Kryeqendra e tyre ishte fillimisht Risiniumi e më pas Shkodra.Ardiana është forma femërore më e përdorur e emrit.Ardi,Ardia përdoren si forma të shkurtuara….” Translation: “Ardian-A masculine name that stems from a proper name of Ardianet, or Ardijejt. The latter were an Illyrian tribe and the inhabitants of the region of Ardia in Dalmatia, mentioned in 4th cetruy B.C. Their initial capital city was Risinium, and later on Shkodra. Ardiana is a femnine form of this name. Abreviated forms like Ardi and Ardia are in use too…”.From what I know, you can do that if you can't find a source in English.So, I propose to accept this source for the part of the text where it says in the brackets (citation needed).--Besajone (talk) 11:40, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Besajone. I am familiar with the book and I added the reference. --sulmues talk contributions 12:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you Sulmues. I believe this reference is acceptable and in accordance with the rules of Wikipedia referencing. I am grateful for the Wikiproject Albania for I believe this will be some sort of a safeguard against the intrusion and arbitrariness of people who have an issue with any Albanian source suporting any connection between Albanian and Illyrian clutures. Also, do you think it might be useful if somone who has the book (I don't, unfortunately) placed here the scanned front and the back cover and page 42, for the sake of autheniticity, as an additional safeguard against intruders using the excuse of "inappropriate referencing"?--Besajone (talk) 13:56, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

It would be very useful yes, but I don't think that experienced users, such as Megistias will reject the source. Be faithful, :-). --sulmues talk contributions 14:18, 7 April 2010 (UTC)