Talk:Arkansas–Pine Bluff Golden Lions

Requested move 14 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved  — Amakuru (talk) 09:36, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

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Arkansas–Pine Bluff Golden Lions and Golden Lady Lions → Arkansas–Pine Bluff Golden Lions – The women's teams do not use Golden Lady Lions. If they ever did, they certainly don't now. SportsGuy789 (talk) 03:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 05:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Pages such as this recent one suggest that the term "Lady Lions" is still in use, although perhaps without the "Golden". It does seem a rather odd name for the 21st century, but it may still be the common name for the women's teams?  — Amakuru (talk) 10:33, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

The above comments were copied from WP:RM/TR by Extraordinary Writ (talk) at 05:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC).

@Amakuru: Using "Lady" is an outdated naming convention found primarily in southern schools, most of whom have since dropped the gender identifier from their women's teams' nicknames for being sexist. A GHITS search of the following terms found:

• "uapb lady lions" = 837 hits
• "uapb golden lady lions" = 5 results
• "arkansas pine bluff lady lions" = 722 results
• "arkansas pine bluff golden lady lions" = ~13,000 hits that are nearly entirely Wiki mirror websites

Whereas ESPN, Fox Sports, and the NCAA itself use Golden Lions. It is common for universities' own athletic websites to once in a while refer to their team as 'Lady [Name]' very colloquially but not formally, in a sports-beat-writer sense, which is precisely what UAPB did in the write-up link you provided. UAPB is objectively the Golden Lions for all of their sports teams. SportsGuy789 (talk) 06:07, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Take a look at UAPB's athletic website. There are far more references to women's teams as "Lady Lions" than not, across multiple sports. This is not a casual thing, it's likely part of their style guide. Heck, even the release that Amakuru linked to calls them the Lady Lions six times, and none as the Golden Lions. That's not casual.

I'd also note that of the links you shared, there are some serious inaccuracies and inconsistencies with ESPN and Fox Sports with regards to gendered team names. Additionally, the NCAA link you shared references the university's athletics as a whole; that same page for Tennessee makes no reference to the women's programs being called the Lady Vols, which they indisputably are.

The move should be to Golden Lions and Lady Lions to match consistency with other similarly-named athletic programs. -fuzzy510 (talk) 04:48, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

• I’d support a move to Arkansas–Pine Bluff Golden Lions and Lady Lions as local papers refer to the women’s teams as Lady Lions (Another example). The Athletics website uses Lady Lions, as well. Furthermore, this move should’ve waited until there is a consensus for this move request. Corky 06:18, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

@Corkythehornetfan: Respectfully, the fact that two outlets in Podunk, Arkansas, refer to the "Lady Lions" pales in comparison when the major media outlets like ESPN and Fox Sports (and others) refer to them as the "Golden Lions". Cbl62 (talk) 21:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• "arkansas pine bluff golden lions" = 97,300 GHITS and "uapb golden lions" = 15,000. Compared to the iterations listed above with Lady and Golden Lady, and with the major sports reporting websites (+ the NCAA itself) not using a gender, having a one-off local colloquial mention should not supersede the rest of the evidence. SportsGuy789 (talk) 14:25, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

  @SportsGuy789: How many of those 97k hits are women’s teams? The first page is all men’s sports… Corky Corky 16:15, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

  Surely you're not arguing that GHITS is a good metric here, when Lady Lions refers to only a small subset of the teams that Golden Lions encompasses? -fuzzy510 (talk) 04:51, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Surely I am, thanks, given the totality of their athletics program's name. Plus I've already demonstrated above how Lady Lions and Lady Golden Lions do not have many GHITS on their own, irrespective of the overall 'Lions' nickname. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:05, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support move to "Golden Lions". "Lady Lions" is clearly an antiquated nomenclature and would likely be viewed as offensive by many. But that in and of itself is not enough. We need to know the common usage. My searches do seem to show that the modern world has reached even to Arkansas with usage of "Golden Lions" extending equally to the women's sports programs as well as men's programs. Examples:

• ESPN uses "Golden Lions" to refer to the women's basketball program. here, here, here, here
• Fox Sports also uses "Golden Lions" to refer to the women's basketball program here, here, and here.

So we have the two highest-profile sports web sites both referring to the women's teams as "Golden Lions". In addition, I found references to the women's teams as "Golden Lions" in many other media outlets. E.g., [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14] (UAPB softball). Cbl62 (talk) 20:50, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• The use of "Golden Lions" also appears to be supported by the university's "Athetic Brand Identity Guidlines" which refer only to "Golden Lions" and make no reference to "Lady Lions" or "Lady Golden Lions". Cbl62 (talk) 21:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• @Amakuru: Your close here strikes me as out of order in that (i) you were involved in taking a position on a contested request, and the close should be taken by an uninvollved person, and (ii) the close does not appear to be supported by consensus, and (iii) the "Lady" Lions is contrary to common usage, as refelcted in my comments on 21 October and 22 October -- none of which have been rebutted. Cbl62 (talk) 01:09, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
• I second Cbl62’s comments. Plus, we now have Bigddan11 reverting the move saying the women’s teams are the “Golden Lady Lions”, which I find odd because they never commented above… Corky 01:22, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Cbl62 and Corkythehornetfan: I did query the original request for an Uncontroversial move, yes, but my close is the opposite of that. I saw a consensus to remove the "Lady" part and just rename to Arkansas–Pine Bluff Golden Lions as originally proposed. Which title did you think should be used? We can't use unqualified Golden Lions, at least without discussion, since that refers to a South African soccer team. You said above you wanted to remove "Lady" and that's exactly what the close did. Now someone else has moved it back. I'd be happy to relist, but I don't understand what your objection is. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 07:46, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Amakuru: I apologize. I misunderstood your close. It appears that my quarrel is with the move that followed your close. Cbl62 (talk) 10:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Cbl62: fair enough, although it seems Corkythehornetfan is nonetheless unhappy with this close, and it's not quite unanimous in support, so let's wait and see what happens.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:15, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Amakuru: I still think “Lady” should be a part of the name, but Cbl62 has provided enough evidence to show it shouldn’t belong. I haven’t done too much research into it, though! My opinion was I thought an uninvolved user should’ve handled the closing, regardless of whether or not it was moved to a consensus — that way it saves us from drama :). I’m fine with the name change you moved it too. My biggest issue at the moment is that your move was reverted by a user who never even bothered to join this discussion! Corky 12:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Corkythehornetfan: Well fair enough. I'll be happy to reopen it if you think the close should be performed by someone else. The subsequent revert of the move may be due to a note I placed on that user's talk page - they originally made the move via cut-and-paste, rather than using the move button, in 2014 and although that was many years ago I had put a polite note about it anyway. Might have backfired on me as they then proceeded to make the move via the move button!  — Amakuru (talk) 13:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Amakuru: What evidence have they provided, because I can tell you it's NOT what they say during the game broadcasts or what the schools athletic site shows. When the official team announcers say they are the Lady Golden Lions, and when the schools AP guide says they are the Lady Golden Lions, then they should be the Lady Golden Lions. Further more the message that was sent to me was a claim of a copy and paste job, and no notification of a discussion of a reversion was EVER SENT, which is always supposed to occur. And @Corkythehornetfan:, I didn't participate in the discussion because I never received ANY NOTIFICATION OF IT. If I had, I could have EASILY shown that the SCHOOLS STYLE GUIDE says they are the Golden Lions and Lady Lions. Bigddan11 (talk) Bigddan11 (talk) 02:30, 5 November 2022 (UTC)