Talk:Armenians in Azerbaijan

Nakhichevan

I removed the info on Nakhichevan, the status of that region has nothing to do with the topic of this article. Grandmaster (talk) 07:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned references in this article

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of this article's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "dewaal":

• From Nagorno-Karabakh War: de Waal, Thomas (2003). Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York: New York University Press. ISBN 0-8147-1945-7.
• From Nagorno-Karabakh: de Waal, Thomas (2003). Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York: New York University Press. ISBN 0-8147-1945-7.
• From Armenian Revolutionary Federation: de Waal, Thomas (2003). Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York University Press. ISBN 0-8147-1945-7.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 05:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Armenians in Azerbaijan

I removed the following sentance because it doesn't adhere to the WP:POV. "Today the Armenians in Azerbaijan are largely concentrated in the break-away region of Nagorno-Karabakh (known as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast), which declared its unilateral act of independence in 1991 under the name Nagorno-Karabakh Republic but has not been recognised by any country." --VartanM (talk) 11:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Re Demoscope edit war

A whole bunch of reverts with no talkpage discussion is not good enough, people. If you want to keep going you need to starting talking it over here first, otherwise I'll start handing out the usual blocks and revert paroles. Moreschi (talk) 15:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I think we should follow Moreschi's advice and continue the discussion here, and not on my talk. US State Department might not be perfect, but no one has demonstrated that the info they provide is wrong. They say pretty much the same as Demoscope, and if 2 sources agree on a fact, you need to bring other independent sources disputing it. Removing a source because you think it cannot know something is not acceptable. Grandmaster 17:23, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

You cannot assume people exist and give exact numbers of how many there are. And he must've not read my links, because India was very mad at the USD for placing part of their land as Pakistan, who is currently disputing the land.

The sentence basicly contridicts itself:

"... almost exclusively comprises persons married to Azeris or of mixed Armenian-Azeri descent"

"They are likely to be the elderly and sick, and probably have no family members."

I also cannot get over the fact the article implies they are in hiding and that they will change their names to stay that way. How can we possibly know they exist, than? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:17, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Another report, on UNHCR website:

It was estimated that by the mid-1990s only around 18,000 Armenians remained in Azerbaijan proper, while there were no accurate figures for the Armenian population of Nagorny Karabakh.

... Anecdotally the figure of 30,000 is often cited, though this is almost certainly an exaggeration. The vast majority of Armenians remaining in Azerbaijan are wives in mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani or Armenian-Russian marriages. [1]

Note that all the sources that I cited are third party, and have no connection with any of the sides of the conflict, so bias is out of question. So by all estimates, there are about 20,000 Armenians in Azerbaijan, mostly from mixed families. Now you may disbelieve these estimates, but we can only write what the sources say, and we cannot include our personal opinions. And the sources say what they say. Grandmaster 07:15, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I should thank you for that link.

"... while there were no accurate figures for the Armenian population of Nagorny Karabakh."

"The 1999 Census in Azerbaijan recorded 120,700 Armenians in Azerbaijan, a figure that is difficult to substantiate."

"Anecdotally the figure of 30,000 is often cited, though this is almost certainly an exaggeration."

"There is no reliable data for numbers of Armenians in the seceded territory of Nagorny Karabakh"

Even they admit this is impossible to know. We should just remove this part so we don't say anything inaccurate. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 15:54, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

They do not admit that it is impossible to know. They say that no accurate estimates are available for NK, but for the rest of Azerbaijan there are. It is said in the text: It was estimated that by the mid-1990s only around 18,000 Armenians remained in Azerbaijan proper. They also say that 30000 is an exaggeration, but lower figure of 18000 is closer to reality, plus they also say that The vast majority of Armenians remaining in Azerbaijan are wives in mixed Armenian-Azerbaijani or Armenian-Russian marriages, which you were also doubting. So the issue is resolved. 3 sources confirming what is written in the article. Please do not revert anymore, until you find reliable sources contradicting those that I cited. Grandmaster 18:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not convinced on the mixed marriage thing either because Azeris in Armenia and vice versa are supposed to be living in hiding and have even changed their names to avoid discrimination. Did these people actually go into the country and meet these people directly? Armenians aren't supposed to be allowed in Azerbaijan. That makes giving even an estimate extremely complicated.

Also, given a war going on, I'd say any data from the mid-1990s is past outdated. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

See WP:OR. We only write what the reliable sources say. And there are 3 sources about mixed marriage, and statistics. Whether you or I find them convincing is of no consequence. Grandmaster 21:42, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Fine. But not only does this source say the typical 30,000 is wrong, the info is also from mid-1990s. That's certainly out dated and it's impossible to give an accurate number now because not only is a war going on, but Azerbaijan has an incredibly dictatorship-like law banning an entire race. So we shouldn't include a number. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

There are 3 sources on this topic. US State Department says that 20,000 is the current number. So it appears that the number remains more or less stable. Minority Rights Group International only says that the figure of 30,000 is an exaggeration, they believe that the lower figure is more accurate, so the previously cited 18,000 is their best estimate. It is close to the US State Department figure. Grandmaster 07:13, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but this number is outdated. It's impossible to give any number now. A war is going on, so Armenians are likely leaving constantly. How are we supposed to get an accurate number now? We could ask Azerbaijan, and they'll tell us, "We have no Armenians, we don't allow an entire race into our country." And you can't look for Armenian surnames for an answer because they're supposed to be changing them. The US State Department is bringing old numbers back up because it's impossible to record new ones. Due to all the Azeri-Armenian conflict, it's simply impossible to know. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:28, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Again, that is your opinion. Sources say otherwise, and we report what the reliable sources say, not what we think. Remember, Verifiability, and not truth, is the basis for inclusion of material. Grandmaster 04:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

So just because any website we can site says something, that makes it true? Who are you to decide that? If we know the info is inaccurate, we shouldn't include it. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 18:43, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

US State Department is not just any website. Neither are other sources quoted. They pass the criteria for reliable sources. In this case, the US State Department has no reason to lie, or take pro-Azerbaijani position. It is absolutely neutral in this issue. We don't add our own original research, we only quote what the reliable third party source say. We may agree or disagree with a certain source, but we cannot reject it because we personally don't like it. If there are reliable sources questioning or refuting what the US State Department says, we can include them too. Grandmaster 21:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Map issue - edit war

File:Armenians in Azerbaijan.jpg

I've now protected this page for a week to encourage users to actually engage in a talk-page discussion about the map in question. Notwithstanding that the map may be deleted for licensing reasons, that won't solve the fundamental argument. GedUK  12:37, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

The fundamental argument here is that the map is an original research, and it is not based on any reliable third party source. For comparison, see File:Ancient countries of Transcaucasia.jpg, which is based on The Cambridge Ancient History, a perfectly neutral scholarly source with no connection to either Azerbaijan or Armenia, and therefore this map is not an original research, and its neutrality cannot be questioned. The creator of the map for this article needs to cite his sources, which must be neutral and reliable. Grandmaster 17:48, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Recently added pages such as Armenian Press of Baku and Armenian oil Business of Baku should be added to the page. This can even be done with external links. --Anonymous (talk) 01:16, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Grandmaster, specify which part of the map is arguable and isn't based on a reliable source.--Երևանցի _{ասելիք կա՞} 20:04, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I would really like to know which part actually is based on RS. The map has a large part of the territory of Azerbaijan covered with symbols of a foot, which according to the legend means "Loudest cases of Azerbaijani vandalism against the Armenian monuments". First off, where is the proof that something really happened in all those locations, and second, how about WP:NPOV? By reliable sources I do not mean propaganda maps published in Armenia, but third party sources not connected to the sides of the conflict. Grandmaster 19:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Let's see. According to its author User:Alcallurops the sources he/she used are:

1. A 1881 Caucasus ethnic map in German by Richard Andree
2. Nakhichevan Cultural Heritage map
3. Northern artsakh ethnic map
4. [Deportation of Armenians from Azerbaijan 1988-92]

Wikipedia doesn't allow to put mappery.com link here. This map was made by an Armenian government agency. I have seen int in a book called National Atlas of Armenia if needed I can provide you with the link

1. Religious map of the Caucasus 1890
2. Historical structures in Northern Artsakh

From these six, which isn't reliable? If you gonna say that Northern Artsakh maps are propaganda maps published in Armenia, then present a base for your arguments. Just because you say so doesn't prove your point.

--Երևանցի _{ասելիք կա՞} 20:59, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Most of those maps are propaganda sources published in Armenia. It is enough to discard them. The rules require us to use third party sources. But it is still unclear where the foot symbols come from. How do we know that something indeed happened in those locations and it is not the fantasy of the creator? None of the maps mentioned by you support the claim. Is there a reliable third party source (not Armenian) which could support the claim for each location? And as I mentioned above, the statements like "Loudest cases of Azerbaijani vandalism against the Armenian monuments" are a rude violation of WP:NPOV. A map like this cannot be used in Wikipedia articles. Grandmaster 21:25, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, I cannot take your words in account. Just because you say they are products of Armenian propaganda doesn't mean they are. I will ask its creator which source he/she used for those. --Երևանցի _{ասելիք կա՞} 22:40, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

It does not really matter. A map with claims like "Loudest cases of Azerbaijani vandalism against the Armenian monuments" has no place in Wikipedia due to rude violation of WP:NPOV. We can ask the community opinion, if you wish. Grandmaster 07:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

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