Talk:Armenians in Lebanon

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Recent reverts

EtienneDolet Can you please explain why you are removing large amounts of sourced content from the article? Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:39, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you are using Gunter's book as a source. Gunter denies the Armenian Genocide. Hence why he shouldn't be used as a source, especially concerning Armenian affairs. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:41, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, but no. This content doesn't have anything to do with whether or not there was a genocide. You can't remove sourced content from articles because you don't like the scholars.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:46, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I have asked you this before but you also should stop blanket reverting sourced content added by other experienced editors - you removed unrelated content sourced to Alexander Agadjanian, published by Routledge, also in this revert [1]. Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:49, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

(ec) It's not that "I don't like the scholars". Don't be silly. And it does not matter if it has to do with the genocide or not, it's a unreliable source and by no means neutral. Have you even read the book you're using as a source? It's denialist garbage. By the way, you can't possibly say that the Armenians who started these organizations didn't have the Armenian Genocide in mind. It's pretty much the reason why these organizations were created in the first place. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:50, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not blanket removing. I'm explaining to you that the sources you used are unreliable hence why I think your edits are entirely unreliable because you are using sources that deny the Armenian Genocide. This is a red flag. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:51, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, you are. What is tour objection to the content sourced to the Routlege source by Alexander Agadjanian? Stripping major scholars as non-RS is a big deal, not something any editor should attempt to do unilaterally.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:55, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, for one the word "ultranationalist" isn't used in that source. That's your own WP:POV and WP:OR wording which is not to be found in that source. But most importantly, you used a denialist source. That's disruptive especially when you insist that such a denialist source is reliable, it's like you're asking for a topic ban. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• I removed ultranationalist pending additional sourcing, but one word is not a good reason to restore a previous article state and remove sourced content added to multiple sections. Alexander Agadjanian is not a denialist source. If you think I should be topic banned for using sources you don't approve of, the correct forum is AE.Seraphim System ^(talk) 19:05, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

No, you need to revert your entire edit because it's highly WP:POV and the sources you use are unreliable (Armenian Genocide deniers and etc.). Removing one word is not going to solve this issue. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:07, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm not going to do that unless there is a consensus at RS/n following a community-wide discussion about whether Gunter can be used as a reliable source. I believe Gunter is reliable for this content - we don't ban scholars for ad hominem reasons and that sounds an awful lot like what you are arguing here. In a case like this, we would need input from editors about whether Gunter should not be used at all or can only be used in certain circumstances. The correct place for that discussion is WP:RS/n. Seraphim System ^(talk) 19:12, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

There has always been a consensus to NOT use genocide deniers as sources. Users have been banned for using Armenian Genocide deniers as sources. The side that presents the genocide as fact has been the one adopted by the Wikipedia community through a consensus, while the other side, a minority position pushed by the Government of Turkey, has not. If you continue to push such a minority position in articles related to the Armenian Genocide, you may face sanctions under WP:AE. Denialist literature, whether it be about the Armenian Genocide or Armenian affairs in general, is always held separate from Armenian Genocide related articles. In fact, denialist sources and references are considered unreliable and thus unacceptable in terms of Wikipedia WP:RS requirements. Denialist sources and information can all go into the Denial of Armenian Genocide article but never into Armenian Genocide/Holocaust related articles. Arbcom takes the position seriously, see Admin Sandstein's remark here and here. The user was formally warned for his constant assertion of denialist information and sources and as of this point may be banned if he/she continues. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:17, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry Etienne but your determination that a source is "denialist" or "unreliable" is not enough. I did not add anything that I think is denialist, andnothing you have said here has changed by mind about that. I will absolutely abide by the consensus at RS/N so I don't think a trip to AE is likely to be fruitful, but you are free to post your complaints there if you think that is the appropriate forum. A consensus at RS/N is definitely needed here because I don't want to have this discussion on multiple article talk pages. (We are already having it on two separate talk pages).Seraphim System ^(talk) 19:26, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I did not add anything that I think is denialist? You just added a source that denies the Armenian Genocide. Read the academic responses to his work...[2]:

Second, it is critical to note that Gunter, the reviewer, occupies a central place in the massive campaign—ardently promoted by successive Turkish governments—to deny the Armenian genocide.

Another piece clearly states [3] that Gunter backed Lewy, an ardent denier of not only the Armenian Genocide, but of the Native American genocide. Gunter...yeah sure, "reliable source". Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Fine, but the content I added is not about the Armenian genocide. We don't ban or censor scholars on Wikipedia because we don't like their viewpoints, we evaluate whether they are reliable in the context they were used. I would not use him for content about whether or not there was a genocide, but most of that I would source to law sources anyway. Now you accusing me of bad faith "denialist" editing, and I don't intend to respond further. I am planning to restore this content unless there is consensus at RS/N that the source is unreliable specifically for the content that I added.Seraphim System ^(talk) 19:42, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't have a personal opinion about Gunter. I don't care about his viewpoints. However, what I do care about is abiding by Wikipedia's standards. By placing junk genocide denialist sources into these articles is not helping that one bit. Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:43, 20 November 2018 (UTC)