Talk:Art Pavilion, Zagreb

Requested move 27 May 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. There were good arguments on both sides, but there is a narrow consensus to do the move. The fact that the institution prefers this terminology isn't decisive for us given the wording of WP:OFFICIALNAMES. EdJohnston (talk) 15:00, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

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Art Pavilion in Zagreb → Art Pavilion, Zagreb – The building's official name is Umjetnički paviljon u Zagrebu. This does indeed literally mean "Art Pavilion in Zagreb". However, although this is normal naming practice in many Eastern European languages, it is not normal naming practice in English, where we would usually replace the "in" with an "of" or simply with a comma (I personally believe the latter is more appropriate here) to specify which city it's in. I have now moved it twice and it has been moved back twice by the same editor, and I can't seem to make him see that this is not normal or intuitive English and that just because it's an official name in the native language doesn't mean we should translate literally into English. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 19:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC) -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:54, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Oppose - This is not a language issue at all, it sounds just as strange in Croatian as it does in English. There are other more usual alternatives which would sound more natural in the native language (e.g. Zagrebački umjetnički paviljon would make much more sense, and would literally translate as "Zagreb Art Pavilion" or "Art Pavilion of Zagreb") but this is not the case. They actually prefer to have it named this way in both languages, which is all the more reason to keep it as it is. In addition, the toponym after a comma implies the toponym is not in the institution's official name and is there just for disambiguation purposes, which is misleading. The toponym is there, it just isn't there in the most common format one would expect to find. A similar case is Croatian National Theatre in Zagreb (officially called literally that way in both languages), and its sister houses Croatian National Theatre in Split and Croatian National Theatre in Osijek. Timbouctou (talk) 16:07, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, we don't take a translation into English on a foreign website as gospel, since English on foreign websites, official or otherwise, is often extremely weird. I have seen this "in" construction many times in Eastern European languages translated into English and it looks odd every time. It's just not how native English speakers construct names. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, it is weird in Croatian as well, which is why it should be kept as it is. It is meant to be weird, do you get it? Besides, the construction is perfectly grammatical in English (i.e. regardless of being less common it is perfectly plausible), so there's no linguistic reason to change it. Timbouctou (talk) 16:12, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

And why is it meant to be weird? Are the names of the other institutions named with an "in" (there are quite a few of them) meant to be weird too? The Archaeological Museum, for instance, or the Classical Gymnasium or the National and University Library? There are numerous other examples from other cities in Croatia and elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe. Wow, those hilarious Croatians, my sides are splitting! Or could it just be that these are direct literal translations from a language which uses a construction that is not usual in English? Yes, it may be grammatical, but it's certainly not normal or intuitive. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:24, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Again, it is not usual in Croatian either, and yet they choose to keep the construction as it is. I understand your obsession to put it all in neat categories, claiming our readers are too retarded to find an article on an Art Pavilion in Zagreb but not so retarded for an Art Pavilion, Zagreb, but I have to disagree. I don't know why they insist on this exact format for these names, it's probably historic since when they were originally formed they had the same basic name as similar institutions in other places in Austria-Hungary of the rest of the country, so they just appended the "in Zagreb" part. They could have picked either "...of Zagreb", or "Zagreb..." formats (like the Zagreb City Museum or Zagreb Electric Tram or Zagreb Cathedral), but they did not. And again - your proposal implies its name is "Art Pavilion", which just happens to be in Zagreb, which is not really the case. And even if it was, the target name should then be Art Pavilion, not Art Pavilion, Zagreb, as there are no other articles about Art Pavilions on Wikipedia. Timbouctou (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I really don't think I claimed our users were retarded or even vaguely suggested it. I just like article titles on English Wikipedia that have been translated into English to actually sound English and not like some weird hybridisation (which is, trust me, quite a problem around the project as many people creating and writing articles are not native English speakers and have strange ideas about English construction and a fondness for using literal instead of intuitive translation - I've renamed hundreds of such bizarrely named articles over the years). If the title in the native language is retained, then fine; if it's translated into English then it should actually be English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Comment. WP:UE says:

In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader.

...which arguably means it's Art Pavilion, Zagreb. GregorB (talk) 11:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

...and Support therefore. GregorB (talk) 18:08, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment. There are cases in English language that use exactly this form with famous case of the Columbia University in the City of New York where full name is short just because it is to long. Here it will not be shorter in version Art Pavilion, Zagreb.--MirkoS18 (talk) 06:43, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You will note that our article is simply at Columbia University! The move request is nothing to do with which version is shorter, but with which version is better English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:01, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not have a strong preferences here. It just seemed to me that you mentioned that this formulation is unusual for English language and than I remembered this example (Columbia University) that actually use this formulation. I do not know if that's the case here since in Croatian I can find both vesions Umjetnički paviljon and Umjetnički paviljon u Zagrebu. Even on their official web page. Have a nice day.--MirkoS18 (talk) 11:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support This seems obvious to me. Even the Croatian Wikipedia has the title Umjetnički paviljon. There's no indication that "in Zagreb" is part of its actual name in any language. --BDD (talk) 15:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"No indication"?

In response to User:BDD's claim that there's "no indication that "in Zagreb" is part of its actual name in any language"; FWIV, the gallery's own logo as seen here on top of page incorporates its name in both Croatian (Umjetnički paviljon u Zagrebu) and English (Art Pavilion in Zagreb). Being part of a logo, it is printed on virtually every piece of promotional material sold at the gallery, including posters, mugs, t-shirts, exhibition catalogs, etc. Does that count as an "indication"? Timbouctou (talk) 07:15, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd say it does. But even if "in Zagreb" was not a part of its actual name, how is that an argument in favor of "Art Pavilion, Zagreb" and against "Art Pavilion in Zagreb" then? (A question for BDD, really...) GregorB (talk) 11:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I was primarily referring to the article on this place in the Croatian Wikipedia. They seem to get along with a shorter name just fine. --BDD (talk) 12:16, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

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