Talk:Arto Tunçboyacıyan/Archive 1

Archive 1

Cleanup

This article needs a lot of cleaning up to do, But I'm not the one to do it because i'm not familiar with the controls, but it would be nice to shrink the picture :)Erikkuiv 00:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

SOAD?

Would I be able to add a System of a Down Template to this page, as his name is mentioned on in table?Starom 15:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Birth date, photos, album covers needed

Friends, we need exact birth date, album covers and additional photos of Arto. Family photos (with Onno, parents) would also be good additions.Armatura 15:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Galataria

I had put a fact tag earlier on, but it wasn't because I doubted that he was born there or anything, but because I had never heard of this place. When I search on Google I can only find a place in Cyprus that has that name. I am really curious as to where this town is and I can't find anything in related Turkey geo categories.. I will try to find do some more research on this, but if someone has more info on this that would be nice. Cheers! Baristarim 23:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I tried searching but the majority of the answers was Istanbul but i assume its a small town or village in Istanbul if there is though. Nareklm 23:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I found a few instances of Galataria and Istanbul mentioned at the same time, and it says that it is a town to the west of Istanbul. It could be a very small town I suppose, and it is a pretty big city :) Anyways, I was just curious. Baristarim 23:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It should be Galata, not Galataria. There's a Wikipedia article about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galata Optln 23:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.98.108.118 (talk)

Galata is a historic name for Karaköy and Arto is not that old to have been born during those times. (I had a chance to meet and talk to him, in Turkish, so I witness he is younger. :-) I made several edits in the article today. I took his ethnicity from the first sentence because that is not in compliance with our WP:OPENPARA rules. I also trimmed an unsourced phrase about 'leaving Turkey to breath some fresh air' or similar to that, which was original research, subjective and pointed. (Possibly that sentence violated other rules too. On the other hand, he comes back to Turkey so often.) I gave a link to his brother, great musician, (maybe not that famous though; possibly because never made heated speeches) Onno Tunç and perhaps did some more detail that I don't remember now. But I do remember very well a 2008 interview with Arto in Taraf, a Turkish newspaper, where speaking about his ethnicity, he states: My race is humankind, my religion is the nature. Being an Armenian is just a spice. If you cannot be a human, what is the importance of being a Turk or an Armenian? Regards. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 15:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

This does not fall under WP:OPENPARA regulations since his ethnicity doesn't have anything to do with the fact that he's an Armenian singer, who sings in Armenian, lived in Armenia, and formed the Armenian Navy Band. How is he not considered an Armenian singer? How could he solely be a Turkish singer? Again, if you're a musician, what makes you an "Armenian singer" is not about your citizenship, it's about what language you sing in or of what style of music you play. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:22, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Quotes

It would also be nice to list some quotes from him. He is a great speaker.Shanongeorge (talk) 07:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I left one for you over there. Cheers. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 15:06, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

In another interview after receving a Grammy award, he said to Turkish journalist Balçiçek Pamir "I went but I left my heart here. I can't leave Turkey. I am the spice of this place." (Habertürk newspaper, July 1, 2011.) --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 20:51, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:OVERCITE

Per WP:OVERCITE and WP:REFBLOAT, there is no reason to have 7 citations in the lede of this article. The fact of his Turkish birth, nationality, and citizenship is incontrovertible and easily verifiable. The fact of that his parents or father were Armenian or of Armenian descent is what needs verifying. The citations need to state this directly, not simply say that Tunçboyacıyan is an Armenian musician (not true; he is Turkish and plays Armenian music). Please remove the citations which do not substantiate, and provide a citation which does. If there are no citations which substantiate his father's ethnicity, then simply state that Tunçboyacıyan is a Turkish musician who plays Armenian music (or who is known for his Armenian music). Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 00:07, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Softlavender (talk · contribs) Do you even have a sources attesting to his Turkish citizenship? And if you really need a source attesting to being of Armenian descent, how bout one from the BBC. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:28, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

He was born and raised Turkey; that means he is a Turkish citizen. The citation you give is the best one so far for being of Armenian descent (in fact the only one so far that seems to state that), so it should be used instead of the WP:OVERCITE and WP:REFBLOAT which do not substantiate. Softlavender (talk) 02:29, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no "citation overkill" These citations contain much more material that can be added to improve the article. Please take the time to read them and add some of that material instead of filling the article with tags or asking for the removal of the reliable sources. In addition, if the reliable sources call him "Armenian" this means he is of Armenian descent, I don't see the problem. You cannot second-guess the reliable sources by saying "Not true". Please consult WP:TRUTH and WP:VERIFIABILITY. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:10, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I added two more references specifically about the "Armenian origin/descent" from Hurriyet daily news and the Moscow News. These two and Etienne's BBC source should suffice. Are we done here? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:05, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The only ones necessary are those WP:RS that are accurate and reliable and that do not state that he is Armenian or an Armenian musician (the latter is a confusing and misleading construction used in some of the music mags because he plays Armenian music, the same way a jazz musician plays jazz music). The others (which is the bulk of them) need to go, not only because they are inaccurate and contradictory, but also because they are not WP:RS on the subject of birth, citizenship, and ethnicity, and also because they are refbloat. We need the lede and its citations to be accurate, not only per WP policy, but also to avoid another endless edit-warring battlefield between pro-Turkish and anti-Turkish factions. Softlavender (talk) 04:22, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, I have supplied three references that deal with the origin specifically and another is the one supplied by Etienne. The rest of the sources are also very reliable and although you don't accept them as RS for the origins, I am not going to dwell on that because they still contain plenty of new material to add to the article. Are you willing to use them to expand it or do you want me to do that? Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 04:29, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Sources for processing are parked here

<ref name="Labourdette2009">{{cite book|author=Jean-Paul Labourdette|title=Petit Futé Arménie|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=SoYA1sGADyoC&pg=PA118|date=24 June 2009|publisher=Petit Futé|isbn=2-7469-2534-6|page=118|quote=Le percussionniste et chanteur arménien de Turquie, Arto Tunçboyaciyan, à la tête des onze musiciens de l'Armenian Navy Band, est l'un des initiateurs de ce courant mi-folk, mi-jazzy, qui intègre les rythmes arméniens à la world music, ...}}</ref> <ref name="Davis2012">{{cite book|author=John S. Davis|title=Historical Dictionary of Jazz|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=c-_1LifRPJkC&pg=PA353|date=24 August 2012|publisher=Scarecrow Press|isbn=978-0-8108-6757-4|page=353|quote=Born in Turkey, Tunçboyaciyan began his career as a percussionist at a young age playing in a band with his older brother Onno. ... sideman with many groups including ones led by Ed Schuller, Gust William Tsilis, and fellow Armenian musician Armen Donelian.}}</ref> <ref name="Inc.2005">{{cite book|author=Nielsen Business Media, Inc.|title=Billboard|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=pxQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA25|date=14 May 2005|publisher=Nielsen Business Media, Inc.|page=25|id={{ISSN|00062510|quote=Malakian run their own record labels, but Tankian's Axis of Justice Web site is becoming increasingly more visible, and in 2003 he recorded an album of largely experimental instrumental music with Armenian musician Arto Tuncboyaciyan.}}}}</ref> <ref name="Inc.2003">{{cite book|author=CMJ Network, Inc.|title=CMJ New Music Monthly|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=wSoEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA55|date=May 2003|publisher=CMJ Network, Inc.|page=55|ISSN=10746978|quote=His teaming with Armenian multi-instrumentalist Arto Tuncboyaciyan is a genre-hopping exploration of poly- rhythmic percussion, disparate samples, globe-spanning undertones and the expected vocal theatrics. And it's wildly entertaining.}}</ref> <ref name="LLC2003">{{cite book|author=SPIN Media LLC|title=SPIN|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=GPg1GS3vHxEC&pg=PA109|date=June 2003|publisher=SPIN Media LLC|pages=109–|ISSN=08863032|quote=With System of a Down, Serj Tankian plays activist pogo metal; on this collaboration with Armenian multi-instrumentalist Arto Tuncboyaciyan, he's an upstanding citizen of the world, wailing in tongues over beats without borders. It's a proudly ..}}</ref> <ref name="NobleKohn2008">{{cite book|author1=John Noble|author2=Michael Kohn|author3=Danielle Systermans|title=Georgia, Armenia e Azerbaigian|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=PFIp-lC5KrAC&pg=PA147|year=2008|publisher=EDT srl|isbn=978-88-6040-303-2|page=147|quote=L'Armenian Navy Band di Arto Tuncboyaciyan fonde jazz e musica folk negli album Bzdik Zinvor (Piccolo Soldato) e ...}}</ref>

Softlavender (talk · contribs) "He was born and raised Turkey; that means he is a Turkish citizen." Ummmm no not necessarily. Are you just assuming this? Are you saying that just because someone is born in a certain country means that he is undoubtedly a citizen of it? That's your POV and your own personal WP:OR which is ultimately against Wikipedia policies. Arto Tuncboyaciyan doesn't live in Turkey anymore. He considers himself a "citizen of the world", how do you know if chose to remain a citizen of Turkey (if he ever was one...you still haven't provide the sources)? So please provide the sources to back your claims. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:30, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Softlavender (talk · contribs) I would like updates please. Let me know if you found a source on his Turkish citizenship. Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:11, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Nationality

Actual ref no 2 says "Turkish-born". We have no reason to doubt his nationality. Has made military service in Turkey. One source I used was removed. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 21:45, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

We need a source to confirm his citizenship, just like how we need a source to confirm his ethnic background. We can't go by his place of birth. As of now, I found nothing on his Turkish citizenship. In fact, he's an American citizen. So if we don't find any sources on his Turkish citizenship, I'm afraid we're going to replace "Turkish musician" to "American musician". Étienne Dolet (talk) 21:53, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

To describe him as an "American musician" in the lede seems seriously wrong to me. He is an Armenian musician, born in Turkey, and he arrived in America as an adult. There is no doubt that he was born as a citizen of Turkey. I don't see a source mentioning American citizenship anyway, merely that he is living in America. And so what even if he is a citizen - this is unimportant to his notability and so it is undue weight to place it in the lede. Is there a single source in which he refers to himself as an "American"? On the contrary, I find he refers to himself as an "Armenian" (for example, as in "We as Armenians..." in the intro notes to ANB's 2005 album "How Much Is Yours?"). Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

I also object strongly to the "Armenian origin / Armenian descent" wording. Exactly when does a person cease to be an "Armenian" and instead be "of Armenian descent". Has any academic writing about Armenian citizens of the Ottoman empire called them "people of Armenian descent". Of course not, they are just referred to as "Armenians"! So, are we to accept that every Armenian living in what became the Republic of Turkey cesed being "Armenian" and suddenly became "of Armenian descent" after 1923? Or is it OK to remain "Armenian" on Wikipedia if born before 1923, but if born after 1923 to "Armenian" parents, you are no longer "Armenian" on Wikipedia but merely "of Armenian descent"? Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Someone who makes Armenian music is an Armenian musician. Simple as that. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:16, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

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