Talk:Arvid Harnack

Berlin University

Harnack probably was at the DHfP first, the Deutsche Hochschule für Politik (see german Wikip.), founded in 1920 as a privat university (and pre-33 very left leaning), which the Nazis later put under control of the state. In 1940 it was made a part of Berlin University, (not yet in 1935 ---the linked website from the DHM simply got things mixed up here). Albrecht Haushofer taught at the DHfP from 1933, was made professor at Berlin University in '40. Auslandswissenschaften means foreign affairs, but was very reduced in Nazi times. ---The linked DHM website says that Harnack was working full time at the ministry for economics in 1935.--Radh (talk) 10:33, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Arplan

Also about arplan

1. Danyel, Jürgen: Zwischen Nation und Sozialismus: Genese, Selbstverständnis und ordnungspolitische Vorstellungen der Widerstandsgruppe um Arvid Harnack und Harro Schulze- Boysen, in: Peter Steinbach, Johannes Tuchel (Hrsg.), Widerstand gegen den Nationalsozialismus, Bonn: Bundeszentrale für politische Bildung, 1994. Schriftenreihe Band 323. Seiten 468- 487.

This seems to have been not a reprint, but the original publication.

Danyel, (p. 473) singles out: Emil Lederer, Alfred Meusel, Otto Hoetzsch, Klaus Mehnert for the side of Political Science and Eastern Europe Studies, and Lukács, Hermann Dunker and Wittfogel for the left and then the national-revolutionaries and national-bolschewiki Ernst Niekisch, Hans Ebeling. Danyel calls the Graf Ernst von Reventlov and Ernst Jünger conservative members of the group, which is a bit strange, Jünger' s Arbeiter from this period is a quasi-fascist text (in the italian, or even a private, Jüngerian style).

Travels of the ARPLAN group in Russian from August, 20. to Sept. 12. were to Moscow, Leningrad, Odessa, Kiew and the Dnjepr region. (Danyl, p. 482)--Radh (talk) 09:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

See also (which gives basically the same information on arplan)

1. Danyel, Jürgen: "Ein Endsieg des nationalsozialistischen Deutschland ist nicht mehr möglich", ..., in: Walle, Heinrich, ed., Aufstand des Gewissens, Militärischer Widerstand gegen Hitler und das NS-Regime 1933 - 1945, Katalog zur Wanderausstellung, herausgegeben im Auftrag des Militärgeschichtlichen Forschungsamtes von Heinrich Walle 1994 (4th edition), Pp. 579-612 (607-612: illustr. (Gestapo photos)).

Inconsistencies

This article has various inconsistencies regarding their deaths with the page on Mildred Harnack. This page states that the location of their bodies is unknown, and implies they were both hanged. The page on Mildred Harnack states that the location of her burial is known & that she was beheaded. VenomousConcept (talk) 17:18, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi @VenomousConcept: I'm updating both these articles at the moment. There will be inconsistencies as a lot of the sources rely on archives, so you end up having sources varying as a tag, put in the article. I work hard to try and identify the correct dates and when thing happens. But sometimes it doesn't work out. When writing about these folk who dealt in espionage and spying, its like the man who wasn't there, scenario. They may be there, but they are not, or they are somewhere else. It continually shifts all the time, as its reflect the work, many folk had different views of what they did, but it was actually in fact, a facade meant to deceive and sometimes that is what you find, it is all a facade. The facts around Mildred Harnack should be more fact based, as she was at very edge of it and they're certainly many decent sources, but for Arvid, I've already found several inconsistencies and source don't match up. It becomes supposition and it can't go in. Hope that helps. scope_creep^Talk 19:18, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Keep for later

Trips to the United States in 1937 and 1939 would follow, during which Harnack unsuccessfully tried to create a basis of communication with Washington. scope_creep^Talk 17:00, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

• This honour proved to be dubious today, as it mistakenly interpreted the group as a communist network of spies who had spied on the Soviets. This interpretation of the resistance group, based on original slander by the Gestapo, was used in a mirrored way in the West, in which the rebels were not honoured there, but persecuted as traitors until the 1970s.

scope_creepTalk 00:39, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Todo

p.100 Brysac. Why Harnack went to America. scope_creep^Talk 23:45, 1 February 2021 (UTC) p.108. Brysac Inner part of Arplan scope_creep^Talk 13:29, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

P.147 Brysac is important. Discussion groups. scope_creep^Talk 22:53, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

According to Brysac, 145-147, Havemann says the last discussion group for espionage activities was in Zehlendorf. Wasn't there flat much further north, so where were they meeting? scope_creep^Talk 17:51, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Karl Behrens link in a top. Still to add the fact he was a cutout and info around Soviet embassy. Page 148 of Kesaris. scope_creep^Talk 11:26, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Copyedit request

@Scope creep: More questions, of course. If you could leave a signature after each response, that'd be great.

• From 1919 to 1923 he studied law at the Friedrich Schiller University, Graz, and Hamburg [...] Wikilinks removed. Are the places he studied in Graz and Hamburg named? If not, I'd probably change Friedrich Schiller University to Jena. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

According to the Lemo source, 1923 After studying law in Jena, Graz and Hamburg, Harnack passed the first state examination. In German academic research/studies when referring to biographical career, they use the name of the town, to signify the university, as a shorthand. So e.g. Graz is the University of Graz and so on. These were the top university in that town. It would be clarified per institution, if it was lower standard, but generally they wouldn't be appearing in that journal. When he finished in 1923, he had to pass the Staatsexamen exam, to qualify for work in that profession. scope_creep^Talk 12:49, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I've expanded them into the university names and changed the wikilinks accordingly. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:34, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• Kuckhoff was drawn into an intimate group of Wisconsin radicals [...] This is Adam Kuckhoff we're talking about here? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

This is Greta Lorke. She wasn't called Kuckhoff until 1933. The Kuckhoff term is a mistake. scope_creep^Talk 01:12, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I've rearranged the sentences so that it's clearer. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:36, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• The Harnacks, like many of their counterparts [...] Which counterparts are you talking about? In what way? Literary counterparts? Ideological counterparts? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Nelson states The Harnacks shared a keen interest in the Soviet Union, like many of their German and American counterparts. As they were an academic couple, i'm assuming it is German students and their friends in the American ex-pat community. Mildred shared her views with students and Arvid was planning to set ARPLAN with a lot of leading academics, writers, publishers, playwrights, journalists,.... It doesn't list the members of ARPLAN, althought I came across a list recently. I think I will add them in. I will balance it better. scope_creep^Talk 14:36, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Added "literary" as an adjective. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:44, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• Heym stated he found the Harnacks to be a genial academic couple who had a determined outlook on the Nazis. Emphasis added. What is meant by "determined outlook"? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

The reference comes verbatim from Brysac. It is from Stefan Heym, "Nachruf", p.74. Heym states:

They sublet a room in his apartment. He opens up and speaks about his fears. He describes the couple who worked so long and hard and successfully in the Red Orchestra, they have no advice to give him to allay his fears. At that time, they are merely a likeable young and married academic couple. He states they have resolute views on the rabble who just have come to power in Germany.

So I think they already had strong views on the Nazi's. Resolute means, admirably purposeful, determined, and unwavering. They knew they were rabble.

scope_creep^Talk 07:45, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I don't think there's really any way to paraphrase what Heym thought of them, so I added in "resolute views" as a quote. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:47, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• The Soviet economy was observed in Moscow, Leningrad, Odessa, Kiev, and the Dnieper region. I'm not sure why this sentence is in this article; it doesn't appear to divulge any information about Harnack in particular. It might be better off in an article like Economy of the Soviet Union. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

This was meant to say something,

The group observed the Soviet economy in operation in Moscow, Leningrad, Odessa, Kiev, and the Dnieper region.

It is badly worded. They group were escorted through all these areas, travelling by train and shown factories and farms at work. They missed the complete collapse of the Soviet economy, or they purposely ignored it as by-product of success. The trip was all smoke and mirrors, but it convinced them, that the Soviet planned economy was a good thing. What was known was the Harnack's were being groomed to be spy's. It s a slow process that can last years or even decades, but the approach of war necessitated the process being sped up. scope_creep^Talk 08:17, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. I reworded it so that it has relevance to ARPLAN. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:49, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• This allegation was again repeated in 1994 by the KGB's deputy director, Pavel Sudoplatov, though it was not recorded in Harnack's own records. I don't understand why it is important that the allegation wasn't in Harnack's own records. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

They're have been much specuculation as to exactly when Arvid Harnack, became a Soviet spy. Sudoplatov and the Russian's have indicated/stated for a number of reasons, political gain, propaganda, right through the cold war, that the Harnacks became Soviet agents durings the trip to the Soviet Union. Harnack himself never stated at any time that he was asked that question. It should state, David Dallin stated in .... that Harnack was asked bluntly by senior Comintern leaders to spy for the Soviet Union, even though Dallin doesn't offer any proof. It is merely speculation that he asked the question. They're has been no evidence offered by the Soviet archives that proves he was asked to be a spy. scope_creep^Talk 08:14, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. So what I'm understanding from this is that this is all hearsay; I've reworded an earlier sentence so that it's clearer that Dallin was speculating, and that it was never confirmed. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 03:52, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• This honour has proven doubtful today, as it mistakenly interpreted the group as a communist spy network spying for the Soviets. What does it mean for the honour to be "proven doubtful"? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

The West and the East viewed the Red Orchestra differently. The east viewed them has heroes, spy's for the soviets and by the 70's decided to award them medals. At the time the cold war was was going on, and they were used, incorrectly, in a propaganda effort by the east. In the west, they were written out as history, as they were seen as Soviet spies, running an espionage network. They're was work by various groups, people, academics to investigate Mildred for example, and other members, often family members, even though they're was hundreds of members of the group. These groups confirmed the Gestapo smear campaign, enabling its projection as an idea right into the 1990's. At that point the Soviets archives were opened and a much deeper understanding started to taken shape. Research was done in Germany principally, to determine what happened and it changed at that point. The Gestapo smear campaign that the west supported was destroyed and new appreciation of their work took over. So the medals, given by the Soviets were misplaced. They were provided to "own" the red orchestra, the idea that they were Soviet spies, which is false. The group itself had many many reason to do the work, idealogy, money, revenge, blackmail and on and on. I hope that make sense. I'll put another ref on it. scope_creep^Talk 14:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Tentatively done. How does This honour has been proven to be erroneous, as it mistakenly interpreted Red Orchestra as a communist spy network spying for the Soviets sound? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:23, 21 August 2021 (UTC)#

That looks excellent and better wording. scope_creep^Talk 19:58, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Changed "spying" to "working" so that the word doesn't get repeated. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:05, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

• It was known that Harnack had planned an independent existence for his friends. What is meant by "indepedent existence"? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm glad you brought this up. The reference is wrong I see, it will need fixed. Arvid Harnack saw spying as a means to an end. His raison d'être wasn't to spy, for the reason he support the Soviet Union, even thought he was Marxist. His reason, was to get rid of Hitler. He had a plan, that once Hitler was gone, their group would form a kind of socialist state, not just to enable to Soviets to walk in an take over. His rationale was to provide the Soviet/British, intelligence to tip the war in their direction. As a group they were academics that were not driven absolutely by ideology, which was the opposite of say for example Leopold Trepper or Anatoly Gurevich, who were fighting to advance the Soviet cause in Europe. They had no independence, they were completely part of the Soveiets. Harnack and his peer group were academics who considered themselves independent from the whole spy game. It was means to an end. They're is various long analysis of exactly what his motivation was. It wasn't money, and it certainly wasn't the fact that the Soviet Union was better than Germany. They were Germans and they fought for Germany, the old republic. I have updated the references. scope_creep^Talk 13:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Tentatively done. How does It was known that Harnack had planned for his friends an independent entity separated from international espionage and politics sound? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:12, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

I have updated that section to expand it slightly. Can you check it. scope_creep^Talk 20:39, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

 Tentatively done. I've changed some of the wording around; it's "independent existence" that sounds weird, but I think wanting Germany to be independent of Nazism and the Soviet Union is what Harnack wanted? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:11, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tenryuu: Was a mess what I put in? Yip, that is fine. scope_creep^Talk 12:17, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:19, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Looking forward to your answers. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:26, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Tenryuu: I'll check these. Some of them look as though they are only half-done. scope_creep^Talk 00:54, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Scope creep: That's most of my questions answered. I would appreciate a quick check on the two marked "Tentatively done" to see if they correctly portray what is meant. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:28, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Tenryuu: Is there something still to do. I didn't make a mess of that section did I? scope_creep^Talk 00:56, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Nah, you're good. I've had a busy day today so I'll give it a quick once-over tomorrow. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:20, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

@Scope creep: I think that's everything on my end for this article. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 04:12, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tenryuu: That is an excellent result. They are really deep copyedit's you do. Not that many folk do them. I hope I can use you again in the future, for another big article I'm working on. It's 3 to 6 months anyway. Thanks for that Tenryuu. scope_creep^Talk 08:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Inconsistencies II

"He and his American-born wife, Mildred Harnack, were executed by the Nazi regime in 1942."

Mildred Harnack was executed on 16th February 1943, as stated in the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mildred_Harnack JF42 (talk) 10:24, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Resistance or Nazi advocate?

@Cole.ro.scott: Could you explain your reasoning to describe him as a Nazi advocate? Based on the article, it is pretty clear that he is someone who is fighting against Nazism. Some excerpts: In June 1941, with Harnack's approval, Korotkov delivered a wireless transmitter to Greta Kuckhoff during a meeting at an underground railway station or The aim of the operation was to organise the Harnack group into an independent network with direct contact with Soviet intelligence.

Also In June 1941, after the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the resistance group intensified its leaflet propaganda. At the same time, the group started to collect military intelligence ... that could be used to overthrow the Nazis. Members of both groups were convinced that only Germany could only be liberated by the Nazis' military defeat, ...

Also In 1941, Harnack sent the Soviets information about the forthcoming invasion. That same year, he wrote for the resistance magazine, ...

It is pretty evident that he is against Nazi. Thank you and have a good day. ✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 07:10, 13 February 2023 (UTC)