Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive 18

Archive 15

Archive 16

Archive 17

Archive 18

Archive 19

Archive 20

→

Archive 25

absence of delay ?

Under CHARACTERISTICS it is now stated that AS is characterized "by absence of delay in cognitive development". Formally this would mean that there is no delay in cognitive development, that people who suffer from AS reach there cognitive potential instantly. This cannot be what was meant by the writer. What should the article say? --Etxrge (talk) 14:52, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The article is not a formal mathematical document; it assumes that the reader has some common sense and can infer that nonsensical interpretations are not intended. Here, the phrase "absence of delay" is derived from the cited source, which says "There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development", again assuming that the topic is delay as compared to the typical development rate. Is there some other sensible interpretation of "by absence of delay in cognitive development", other than the intended interpretation? If so, could you please explain what it is, so that we can remove the ambiguity? Eubulides (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the "clinically significant" term should be introduced. Whilst introducing a level of subjectivity itself it leans in the right direction. Perhaps also one needs to consider what sort of audience the article aims at: I would suspect a dual one, of medical people needing to bone up quickly on AS, and also people who have some initial suspicion that they may have AS needing some clarification. Perhaps since one of the known characteristics of people with AS is that they lack some notions of common sense, removal of any ambiguity might from this perspective be important. Soarhead77 (talk) 15:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, fair enough, I added "clinically significant" here. Eubulides (talk) 17:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Giving "it assumes that the reader has some common sense and can infer that nonsensical interpretations are not intended" as an argument in an article about AS may not be the best course of action. Taking expressions literally is one of the characteristics. Something to be considered, in this article especially. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.86.68.180 (talk) 18:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Referred mood

Removed, non-reliable source, hard to follow and I can't make heads or tails of the relevance. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Children with AS may be extremely sensitive to the moods of other people, especially when they are in close proximity.The effect of other peoples' moods seems to wash over ASD children, and it evokes a differing response in each child called referred mood;e.g. For the referred emotion of anger,the children with AS may get angry themselves, or they may withdraw within themselves, and internalize the anger, or feel the anger is directed at them-and think it must be their fault.Whichever way they experience referred moods, its a confusing and exhausting experience.Referred moods happen with most emotions such as agitation,anxiety,excitement.[1]

DSM IV

I was wondering what the DSM IV number is for AS. Like, OCD is Axis I: 300.30. What is it for AS? I know it would be in Axis II, but that's about it. The article should state what the specific number is in the classification table. That's all. ForestAngel (talk) 03:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

DSM = ICD9; it's in the infobox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:57, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, could someone add that it's referring to the DSM? I mean, I only know the classification for DSM IV as Axis I and Axis II. Is there a way to change the template so that an average person reading it would understand? ForestAngel (talk) 04:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I've seen this issue raised at WP:MED before, I've not followed closely, I don't understand the logic of using ICD9, and it bugs me too. Perhaps you can raise it on the talk page there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Asperger Syndrome (299.8) but it is on axis I and not II. --Fenke (talk) 22:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Blanket revert of earnest edit

I am somewhat befuddled by this revert. In the edit summary SandyGeorgia writes, "I cannot decipher the new footnote, self-care is overlinked, pls discuss on talk." There were four separate changes made in the edit which was reverted. Firstly, I added a link to the Nobel Laureate which is mentioned in the text. I think it's unnecessarily reserved to omit the name of the person when Wikipedia does in fact have an article on him. Secondly, the "overlinked" self-care wikilink. I cannot understand the reasoning behind removing this wikilink. Again, I find the reverting editor asserting a too reserved position. Thirdly, the footnote which I added to the article's information about "5,484 eight-year-old children in Finland found 2.9 children per 1,000 met the ICD-10 criteria for an AS diagnosis, 2.7 per 1,000 for Gillberg and Gillberg criteria, 2.5 for DSM-IV, 1.6 for Szatmari et al., and 4.3 per 1,000 for the union of the four criteria." This is hard stuff to absorb for many people with a low level of numeracy, so I added this as a didactic footnote: "16, 15, 14, 9, and 24 individuals respectively." Is this footnote harder to decipher than the original statistics, and does this apply generally or merely to a few among whom SandyGeorgia finds herself? And lastly, I moved a comma according to standard English orthography rules as I believe them to be. All of this was reverted. Now I discuss this change, and I pose the question whether perhaps this discussion should have been unnecessary, or if my edit should have been left in place and the other editor instead should have been making initial remarks here on the discussion page? __meco (talk) 23:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I was befuddled by the footnote :-) I couldn't make the numbers in the footnote match up with anything to the "respectively", and I don't think casual readers can/will. To glance between text above and note below to match up numbers is a stretch. Yes, I also simultaneously in one edit got 1) the footnote, 2) a vandal edit), 3) the self-care WP:OVERLINKing (only link to articles that provide context for this article and aren't common terms known to most English speakers), and 4) what I thought wasn't necessary text added to a footnote. If the nobel laureate needs to be mentioned in the footnote, that would probably mean he needs to be mentioned in the text; we should talk about whether that's the case. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

To take the four changes one by one:

• I don't think the Nobel laureate's identity is that relevant to this article. What matters is that at least one laureate has AS. If we were talking about a really famous laureate like Kipling or Einstein or Gorbachev it might be another story, but the vast majority of readers won't know who Vernon L. Smith is and mentioning his identity weakens the article (by making it a trivia repository) rather than strengthening it. Certainly his identity shouldn't be mentioned in the footnote; anybody who cares who it is can click on the link.
• I don't see the need to wikilink to self-care. If we're going to do that, why not also wikilink to romantic, cognitive, marriage, and organization (all terms used in the same sentence)?
• The "16, 15, 14, 9, and 24" is unnecessary and adds confusion to the article rather than subtracting it. Nobody will care what the absolute numbers were of the Finnish study. What people care about is prevalence per 1,000, which is already reported.
• As for the comma, Wikipedia uses logical quoting (see WP:PUNC) so the article does not need a change here.

Eubulides (talk) 00:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wiktionary vs Wikipedia wikilinks

This is just a minor style question. A recent edit wikilinked the word idiosyncratic to its Wiktionary definition rather than to the Idiosyncratic article. Normally I prefer to stay within Wikipedia, as is already done for words like pedanticic in that same sentence; is there some reason to use Wiktionary here? Eubulides (talk) 23:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

To me, those links are external content, highly unreliable, and should never be used. I'd remove them all. If something needs to be defined, it should be defined within the article, or on Wiki; you shouldn't have to start an account on another service, and watch entries there, to assure accurate content for this article. I don't think we should have external jumps in the text, and those are external jumps. But I don't know if that answer is grounded in guideline or policy. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a sister-project, linked from the main page, and probably at least as reliable as wikipedia itself, but I understand that 'internal links only' would be a guideline that leaves little need for discussing the reliability of such wiki-links. Fenke (talk) 07:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Fenke, just to follow up on why this is a concern: because of the Stuttering FAR, I discovered that our articles had links to sister project articles that are SO bad (serious POV and COI) that we would never accept them as external links in the EL section of an article. My thinking is that if they don't rise to the level of what we accept as External links, we shouldn't use them at all, even if they are sister links. The Stuttering and Anti-stuttering devices COI report made me very suspicious of ever using sister links. HTH, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I understand this could be a concern. Fenke (talk) 21:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no problems with internally linking it, I choose the wiktionary description because it is brief and explains the word, basically what I expect what might be required when reading the article. --Fenke (talk) 07:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks, I did that. Eubulides (talk) 10:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

One way to avoid would be to re-word with a simpler word instead. I'm inclined to agree with SG that wiktionary is unreliable content, and further, there's no real need to link the word at all. It's a common enough word, and if someone is unfamiliar with it in this context, they should look it up in an actual dictionary. Individuals w/AS have unusual prosody and use of language. No need to link it, it's a simple enough concept. WLU (talk) 18:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, isn't prosody (linguistics) sufficient to cover all the aspects of speech in that particular clause? Prosody seems to cover loudness, pitch, intonation and rhythm, thus rendering either prosody, or the remaining four words as redundant. WLU (talk) 18:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of using simpler words, but simplifying the text by saying only "prosody" sounds a bit much. I suspect that most casual readers of this article will not know what prosody is. Perhaps we could reword it by mentioning prosody (wikilinked) first and then briefly explain prosody in terms of loudness, pitch, intonation and rhythm (not wikilinked, since the wikilink to prosody should suffice). Eubulides (talk) 19:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Prosody doesn't cover idiosyncratic, as I understand them the latter would involve uncommon uses (combining) of words, the meaning of words, while prosody is about the auditory aspects.

The 'psychiatry' subsection of idiosyncrasy is about (idiosyncratic) language that is sometimes used in psychiatry (by psychiatrists) about patients, as well as the uncommon reactions of patients to events. As such it links to a confusing explanation of the word since in this article it is used for the uncommon use of language (it's primary meaning) by people with AS. --Fenke (talk) 21:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

British vs American spelling

User:85.11.183.199 is attempting to change the article from American to British spelling, without discussion. I assume that this can be reverted; it's not vandalism per se, but WP:ENGVAR suggests we should just leave it American. Eubulides (talk) 19:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:ENGVAR is clear that the original spelling should be left, but I'm not certain where this falls wrt WP:3RR and vandalism; if it persists, we may need to ask somewhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It's hardly vandalism. Older versions of this article used english spelling, that would suggest it should be in english spelling now. --Fenke (talk) 09:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The oldest version of this article that used the word "behavior" used the American spelling, not the English. Which isn't too surprising, since it's quoting the DSM. Eubulides (talk) 16:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Dreams of a system rather like the one for date and time which alters the spelling depending on ones preferences on logging in... Soarhead77 (talk) 13:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand Soarhead77's comment,but Eubulides's opinion makes sense. 99.230.152.143 (talk) 21:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Soarhead suggests a system - similar to the timezone system - that would show people with a preference for English spelling the articles in English spelling and people with a preference for US-English spelling the articles in US-English spelling. --Fenke (talk) 22:25, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate the help. :) 99.230.152.143 (talk) 18:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Prevalence of AS vs autism

The figures given in the article are WIDELY misleading and certainly not supported by the given references. The study that is referenced use young children where AS is not yet identifiable. AS is usually not diagnosed until much later than 6-7 years that these children are. I vote for an imidiate removal of these claims. --Rdos (talk) 13:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence in "Epidemiology" is fully supported by the reference and admits to the uncertainty in the figures. The source agrees with you that:

"To obtain more valid estimates, it will be important to focus on rates applying to slightly older age groups (ie, children aged 8–12 years) because children with AD are identified and diagnosed much later than children with typical autism and, as a consequence, estimates obtained in younger samples might underestimate the prevalence of Asperger disorder."

That review paper is five years old, so perhaps you could suggest a more up-to-date one? The second source (the book), is up-to-date and from a respected publisher. I can't read the book but I trust Eubulides's text matches this source; he's usually very careful in that regard. Colin°^Talk 17:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that Eubulides's cite the text he proposes validates these claims. Especially the age of the children participating in the study and where the sample is taken from. In this article http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=2485 my claim that AD is not diagnosed at 6-7 years of age but at an age of 11 years on average. Unless Eubulides's reference can present a group of children at least 11 years of age and not done in special education, it simply doesn't verify the claim and that is irrespectible if it is published or not. --Rdos (talk) 19:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I concur that the text was well cited and accurate, and disagree with this removal of cited text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The figures in Asperger syndrome#Epidemiology all came from the cited sources. The article's "0.03 to 4.84 per 1,000" and "5:1" both came directly from Fombonne & Tidmarsh 2003 (PMID 12512396), which says "The prevalence rates for AD range from 0.3–48.4 per 10,000" and "the number of children with autism was on average five times higher than that for AD". The article's "combining this with a conservative prevalence estimate for autism of 1.3 per 1,000 suggests indirectly that the prevalence of AS might be around 0.26 per 1,000" comes directly from Fombonne 2007 (ISBN 0521549574), which says on page 42, "From these results, a conservative estimate for the current prevalence of autistic disorder is most consistent with values lying somewhere between 10 per 10 000 and 16 per 10 000. For further calculations, we arbitrarily adopted the midpoint of this interval as the working rate for autism prevalence, i.e. the value of 13 per 10 000" and on page 47, "This translates into a rate for Asperger's syndrome which would be 1/5 that of autism. We therefore used, for subsequent calculations, an estimate of 2.6 per 10 000 for Asperger's syndrome." There is no requirement to "present a group of children at least 11 years of age" in order to make these estimates. Eubulides (talk) 07:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless he have included some new studies of older children or adults I don't see the claim as substantiated. I've never seen a 5:1 relation between autism & AS on any web-forum. Autistics are a small minority-group. In Aspie-quiz, diagnosed autism vs diagnosed AS is 955 vs 3595, which translates to 1:3.7, which is far more credible than these claims. Since AS is a new diagnosis, one might suspect that many adults that are actually AS in Aspie-quiz was diagnosed with autism before the AS diagnosis was "invented". I suggest you either show his age group (and put a disclaimer about the age group in the text if it is still 6-7 year olds) or remove the claim. --Rdos (talk) 09:54, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume "Aspie-quiz" is the online questionnaire you host. If so, your sample group assumes a level of computer competence, language ability, and a reasonable IQ. Only a small minority of those with Autism would be capable of participating. And your results would only be "credible" on Wikipedia if you can persuade a reputable publisher to print them.

I think Rdos makes a reasonable point that the current Epidemiology section concentrates solely on studies of young children. For balance, some effort should be made to find reliable studies on adolescents and adults. If they can't be found, then perhaps the text could at least be clearer that the studies to date have the weakness noted by the above-quoted text from Fombonne & Tidmarsh (2003). Rdos, you cite a source that claims AS is not generally diagnosed until 11, on average. There could be many reasons for this delay, and a population study of younger children might well find undiagnosed children, provided the test is sensitive and the characteristics are apparent at that age. But Fombonne & Tidmarsh (2003) agree with you that it is likely to be better to have data from an older population group.

I suspect the Fombonne (2007) chapter is as up-to-date as we can get, and that we simply lack the reliable data for older groups. Could we add something like "Most studies to date have examined children younger than the typical age of diagnosis, and might therefore underestimate the prevalence of AS." Colin°^Talk 12:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a study from Williams that examines the effects of several factors on the prevalence estimate and age of the children in the examined groups was one of the factors that influences the outcome. --Fenke (talk) 12:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that (the full article is available with free registration), though it covers typical autism and ASD, not specifically AS. However, it does confirm age is a problem (as well as diagnostic criteria [which is mentioned in the article] and study location [urban/rural]). I quote:

"When including age in the model, an increase in the age of the sample by one year was associated with a fall in prevalence by a factor of approximately 0.85, taking the odds ratio as an approximation of a relative risk. Alternatively, when including study location, studies in urban areas gave rise to prevalence estimates over 2.5 times those in rural or mixed urban and rural areas."

and later:

"The age of the children screened was strongly associated with the prevalence estimates. Manifestations of ASD may be more obvious in younger children. Alternatively, some screening methods may be more sensitive for younger children."

So it may be that Fombonne's speculation that a low study age might underestimate the prevalence of AS could be wrong (though, again, this paper didn't look at AS specifically). Clearly the statement "Prevalence estimates vary enormously." is not kidding. Colin°^Talk 13:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Fombone 2007 is the most recent epidemiological survey I know of. It covers the same studies as Fombonne & Tidmarsh 2003, except that it also includes Chakrabarti & Fombonne 2005 (PMID 15930062). I can't easily see a way to write up the above discussion in the text of the article proper; that would be original research. However, it is reasonable to mention that the surveyed studies are of children, and that the measured ratios were also all over the map, so I made this change. I don't know of any reliable source claiming that AS is more prevalent than autism; I suspect that the results on Aspie-quiz are skewed by self-selection. Certainly the name "Aspie-quiz" alone would be more likely to draw respondents with AS than with autism. Eubulides (talk) 23:59, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

New reference for widely different views between organizations and Aspies

Published, reliable, source: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785919572~db=all Calls for recreating the balance. This article is the worst POV I've ever seen. --Rdos (talk) 13:25, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't concern itself with blogs and non-reliable internet websites. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Wikipedia doesn't concern itself with the published literature? Haven't you been discarding everything that isn't published ever since you "took over" this article and turned it into a disease? Do you mean that there is differences between publications and publications and that you in fact only accept the literature you like yourself? --Rdos (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Once again, the article is about "blogs written by people who have been diagnosed with AS, as well as organizations devoted to the support of people with AS and their families", which has no relationship to Wikipedia articles or Wiki reliable sources. But you, Rdos, apparently have a point to make based on the off-Wiki canvassing and inaccurate statements made about me on those sorts of websites. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:32, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not the blogs that are cited but the research report that is published. It concludes that Aspies and organizations have widely different views of AS. If this article is supposed to be balanced and NPOV, it should incorporate this aspect and can use this published report as a reliable reference. --Rdos (talk) 19:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It's certainly reasonable to mention Aspie bloggers under "Cultural aspects". Asperger syndrome already does so, but it gave an old citation (Dekker 1999) whose URL is no longer accessible. The paper you mention is a more reliable source, and has the advantage that it is accessible, so I made this change to substitute the new citation for the old. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. Eubulides (talk) 08:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Journal abbreviations in citations, etc.

This series of changes did the following:

• Replace journal abbreviations like J Autism Dev Disord with spelled-out versions like Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. Some of these replacements introduced incorrect spelled-out versions, so to this extent the replacement harmed the article rather than helping it. Anyway, I'd rather keep the abbreviations. Spelling out journal names doesn't help the typical reader, who doesn't know one medical journal from another, but it does consume valuable screen real estate and it slows down the expert reader. Novice readers can easily discover the full journal title by clicking on the DOI. The typical style in similar Wikipedia articles is to use the abbreviations.
• Hyphenate ISBNs. That looks good to me.
• It added a DOI for Rutter 2005, but the DOI doesn't work. I'd rather omit non-working DOIs.
• It added a DOI for Rinehart et al. 2002; thanks.
• For Dakin 2005, it avoided the "cite book" template and abbreviated the book title. I'd rather stick with full book titles and use the template; I don't see the advantage of handcoding this particular reference.

In short, I'd like to keep the ISBN hyphenation and the Rinehart et al. 2002 DOI, and omit the rest of the changes.

Eubulides (talk) 21:20, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I utterly disagree with both "Spelling out journal names doesn't help the typical reader, who doesn't know one medical journal from another" and "The typical style in similar Wikipedia articles is to use the abbreviations." In the first case, the use of abbreviation tends to make the task (should one attempt to do so for whatever reason) of retrieving the article through any system other than direct link from Wikipedia (i.e. the PMID and DOI) far more complicated than needs be (I know this for a fact, having had several run myself with horribly ambiguous abbreviations in the past).

It is totally incorrect to write that "typical style in similar Wikipedia articles is to use the abbreviations." 90% of overall references don't use abbreviations; most medical articles have abbreviations because the references where added with them, not because the majority of articles outside medicine use them.

As a side note, this was a mild editing compared to what I normally do, i.e. full names, use of the last/first/coauthors fields etc. And even those reference cleanups usually go mostly unopposed. I cleaned up most of Bird while it was at FAC in that fashion without comments on it, and I'm currently revising Vampire in the same fashion at the demand of an editor. I expanded the references on a few of Samir (talk · contribs)'s articles, and he also never opposed it.

Regarding other bits (The DOI and book simplification), I don't mind them being reverted. I agree simpler book references are only truly necessary where they repeat by the dozen (cf. the above-mentioned Vampire, or Eadbald of Kent and other FAs from Mike Christie (talk · contribs)).Circeus (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Citation formatting is one of those areas where Wikipedia refuses to dictate and leaves it up to editors to come to a consensus per article. Even with a discipline such as medicine, WP:MEDMOS describes several styles and doesn't mandate. It explicitly says only that "Some editors prefer to expand the abbreviated journal name". It mentions two conventions for abbreviating author lists with et al but doesn't say you should use either. I think journal names are typically short on wikipedia for three reasons:

1. Many editors (such as Eubulides) are extremely familiar with them and can read the code. In fact, they may be more familiar with abbreviations like BMJ and JAMA than the full name.
2. Diberri's template-filling web site does not currently offer the option to expand the journal name. The information is there, in the XML data source, but there is no tick-box for asking for it. I'm sure if requested, he'd add it. Until/unless that it added, it makes the inclusion of full journal names a lot of work for any editor who likes to use this tool for "cite journal" templates.
3. Editors using the Vancouver style for citations would use NLM abbreviations. The full list can be found here.

This article uses Wikipedia's home-grown "cite journal" form. I have some sympathy with Circeus as I find the abbreviated form to be little more than a code. However, some journal names are extremely long. I don't think there is a right or wrong choice here as there are +/- aspects to either. While I appreciate WP:OWN, I also understand that making life difficult for the principle editor/maintainer of an FA with dozens of references isn't ideal either. Without support from Diberri's tool, adding new citations is going to be that bit more tedious. And knowing Eubulides, he's going to want to carefully check all 70-odd citations, if he hasn't done so already. Those are just time sinks.

As for expansion to full person names, don't try it. The information just isn't generally available and a mix of initials and full names will look terrible. Colin°^Talk 15:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Full journal names are one click away on the PMID/DOI. In the interest of maintenance and ease of use of the Diberri tool, I don't believe the established citation method on an article should be changed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, I changed it back. I had in mind a snarky comment along the lines of "Why don't we expand 'CNBC' while we're at it?" but Colin and SandyGeorgia summarized the arguments far better than I would have. Eubulides (talk) 17:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment

Why did you delete my comment? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.223.19.24 (talk) 20:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Needs citation, No personal attacks. The Wednesday Island (talk) 20:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

UK discrimination

Following section added to page. At mimimum, it requires a citation, for both discrim (possibly from an extant source?) and for both the UK act and attendant ET case. Also, I question the relevance of a single case in a single country to the whole page. May be more suitable for another page with a link to the AS page proper (possibly Sociological and cultural aspects of autism?) WLU (talk) 14:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Individuals with AS also experience frequent discrimination at work and in other areas of life. In the UK at least, the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 provides some protection and an Employment Tribunal case was won by someone who was turned down for a promotion at work on account of his AS

This is the second time this editor has added something related to this text to the page, in May/07 [2]. In May, two citations were provided. The first citation doesn't appear to mention AS specifically (may be found with further digging into linked external pages) while the second does. WLU (talk) 14:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

UK Aspergers is now confirmed as being covered by the Disability Discrimination Act. This means that those with AS who get treated badly because of it may have some redress. The first case was that of Hewitt (sometimes referred to as Hewett) v Motorola 2004 [3] and the second was Isles v Ealing Council [4] From May, 2007, WLU (talk)

User:Ilesmark edited the above remarks in such a way that I couldn't follow what was meant. I restored the above remarks to what User:WLU originally wrote; normally it's better to leave people's talk-page remarks alone, and to add your own remarks in separate paragraphs. I attempt to collect User:Ilesmark's additions as follows. They were a wikilink to Disability Discrimination Act 1995, an external link, and the following remarks:

If readers can see that someone in the UK has succeeded in a case, this may at least prompt them to check whether similar laws exist in their own country eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disability_discrimination_act

Now it does

http://83.137.212.42/sitearchive/DRC/the_law/legal_commentary/key_achievements_over_the_last.html - scoll down to Hewett v Mororola

Eubulides (talk) 07:18, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

No mention of famous cases nor reference to info re

I see that this page makes no mention of the fact that many famous people have been formally diagnosed with AS or have been posthumously identified as having been autistic. I also didn't see anything on this page directing people to the page about famous people such as Newton and Einstein and whether they had AS etc etc. Are you trying to keep a secret or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.197.25 (talk) 16:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:MEDMOS#Notable cases suggests that this sort of medical article should not emphasize notable cases, for several reasons. One of them is that the list of such cases becomes unreliable and controversial and distracts from the topic at hand. For more on this topic, please see People speculated to have been autistic. Eubulides (talk) 18:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Interesting article just appeared on the BBC website about the link between AS and creativity - but really, who knows whether Einstein or anyone else would have been diagnosed with AS?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ndaisley (talk • contribs) 12:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

uh - does that mean that the signature button doesn't work any more? I did sign this! --Ndaisley (talk) 11:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC) worked that time!

Famous cases SHOULD be mentioned. he he, good one whoever thought of that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.150.9 (talk) 00:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Wot about Wrong Planet link

A link to www.wrongplanet.net would be in order I feel. Martinwguy (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It's there. Asperger syndrome #Cultural aspects mentions Wrong Planet, wikilinks to it, and cites Clarke & van Amerom 2007 about it. Eubulides (talk) 20:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Aspies "should" take medication

"Deficits in self-identifying emotions or in observing effects of one's behavior on others can make it difficult for individuals with AS to see why they should take medication."
I suggest that we rephrase this for NPOV, as it implies that Aspies should in fact take medication. (Autistic pride / Neurodiversity advocates might argue that in fact Aspies are just fine the way they are and don't need to take medication.)
We should perhaps rephrase this as "can make it difficult for individuals with AS to see why taking medication might be desirable" or something along those lines. -- 201.37.229.117 (talk) 14:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It's common for people to say things like "I don't see why I should pay higher taxes."; such a statement does not imply that taxes should be higher. I don't see why the proposed rewording is an improvement; it implies that Aspies are refusing to take desirable actions. Eubulides (talk) 17:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Aspies who are "refusing to take desirable actions" may feel that those actions are, in fact, not desirable. Timetrial3141592 (talk) 22:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and that was the point I was trying to make. But this topic is now moot, given the 2008-01-25 rewording to "why the use of medication may be appropriate" discussed below. Eubulides (talk) 23:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

How about saying that it is recommended by psychiatric professionals that the use of medication should be accompanied by counseling. Furthermore, since when is "autistic pride" a member or entity expert in treatment or diagnosis? Is this like gay pride? First amendment speech I respect their voice, but are we giving them a status of authority in the realm of science? --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 23:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Whether medication should be accompanied by counseling is a different issue; it might make sense to talk about that, but it won't resolve this question (also, the different issue would need to be sourced). The original issue is not about fact, it's whether a particular choice of words is biased. Word choice is not strictly a scientific issue, and can't be resolved purely on scientific grounds. That being said, I just now checked Towbin 2003 (PMID 12512397), the original source, and its wording is "should be required to take medication". I made this change to cause the article to better reflect the original source; I hope this helps to resolve the issue. Eubulides (talk) 23:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

As a diagnosed Aspie I have been told by more than one doctor that medication in the form of anti-depressants may not be as beneficial for me as it might be for someone who is NT - I am not aware of any literature to back this up though. I am currently thinking that any depression I might have suffered in the past might be related to the failure by others and by myself to recognise that I did in fact have Asperger's syndrome. This is in the way of a personal experiment and I stand to be corrected on this! Soarhead77 (talk) 12:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Eubulides, thank you for your effort to improve this, however ...
Article currently reads: "Deficits in self-identifying emotions or in observing effects of one's behavior on others can make it difficult for individuals with AS to see why they should be required to take medication."
I'd say that if anything this is even worse, as the image of individuals being "required" to take medication (presumably despite their personal wishes in the matter) leads to various rather nightmarish scenarios.
I understand that this was in the original text cited and that we may want to keep it for that reason, but I don't like it much. -- 201.37.229.117 (talk) 14:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you about choice of wording and would welcome a better one that addresses the same point, if we can find a better one that is sourced. Eubulides (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a teenage son with AS, taking meds is not at all a problem and never has been (since 2). Getting him to do his homework, seeing how failure in school will adversely affect his life, and admitting fault at any level about anything are real problems we deal with every single day. He would play video games and watch cartoons until the day he dies with no problems. He's 17 years old and doesn't see the end of high school on the horizon, nor any concern about how bad grades will affect him down the road. Now whether some doctors think someone with AS should take meds or write it in a book, is really irrelevant, because for every book with one perspective there is always another with the opposite one. This article should be about things that help people with AS or family members who live with someone diagnosed with AS. If a professional comes to Wiki to learn about AS, what does that tell you?--THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^TALK 19:38, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I've met several Health Care Professional type people who have known nothing or a very limited amount about AS, I suspect I would rather them read this article as an introduction so they understand what they are dealing with than not. This includes at least one (in UK terms) chartered psychologist who admitted to me that she knew *nothing* about AS. When one has AS and one tries to get some professional in the health care system to understand it, this I find is a good place for them to start. I suspect the situation is not much different in the US. Soarhead77 (talk) 15:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Could rephrase to "why the use of medication may be appropriate." Medication, for AS and other conditions including antibiotics for a cold, may be used but may be opposed because of side effects. Not all aspies are going to take medication, and not all who take it are going to resist, so I'd say phrase it as a conditional and avoid the controversy. WLU (talk) 16:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion; I did that. Eubulides (talk) 21:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Why no mention of the high sucide rates?

Come on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Casey QuestionMark (talk • contribs)

That would require a reliable source to verify. WLU (talk) 14:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That en't nice to the Aspies that are really against sucide! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.150.9 (talk) 00:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, it's spelled suicide. Secondly, I hope you aren't just another person who hates us. But I can understand. You'd be depressed too if everyone was always mean to you, you had almost no friends, and you knew exactly hoow different you were and knew you couldn't do anything about it because your brain got messed up! *pounding on keyboard to type this!*

DarkestMoonlight (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Pragmatics: understanding what is not explicitly stated

Interesting material at Pragmatics which bears on the difficulty of understanding what is not explicitly stated:

"Pragmatics is the study of the ability of natural language speakers to communicate more than that which is explicitly stated. The ability to understand another speaker's intended meaning is called pragmatic competence. ...

Suppose a person wanted to ask someone else to stop smoking. ... The person could simply say, 'Stop smoking, please!' which is direct and with clear semantic meaning; alternatively, the person could say, 'Whew, this room could use an air purifier' which infers a similar meaning but is indirect and therefore requires pragmatic inference to derive the intended meaning.

Pragmatics is regarded as one of the most challenging aspects for language learners to grasp, and can only truly be learned with experience."

-- Writtenonsand (talk) 12:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Article would benefit from balance

There is a conspicuous absence of neutral and positive aspects of AS, will be making additions with DOI/PMID references. Sitadel (talk) 06:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Added a couple of sentences in paragraph 2 anyway, will return to add more. We need to be careful about negative aspects which have no clinical definition, like "motor clumsiness". There is also some discredited terminology involving "theory of mind" which, along with "central coherence", were simple hypotheses which studies did not validate.

In short I feel the article needs further balancing before it's safe to pull that tag off. The reader's interests are best served if s/he is made aware there are some important ommissions from the current article. It especially sensitive since AS applies to Living Persons, so policy urges us to err on the side of caution (actually, policy demands much more drastic action! But a tag suffices, I think. Back for more soon) Sitadel (talk) 07:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Sitadel. Thank-you for your efforts to ensure NPOV and provide sources for your changes. You may be interested in reading some archived discussions. The positive/negative debate has been discussed extensively and passionately. Ultimately, it comes down to what is supported by the sources. This seems to be one aspect that is sadly lacking in high quality sources, but is important to a lot of people. As this is a featured article, we should be conservative in making radical changes too quickly. Controversial changes are best suggested on talk pages rather than being too bold. Also, remember that the lead section is a summary of the article—so really we should edit the rest of the article before then bringing the lead into line. Colin°^Talk 09:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome, Colin! I won't make radical or rapid changes, and will work from the body first. (Today I'll follow up the material added in p. 2 in the body.) I'll also take great care with sources, holding them to a higher standard than those which report negative aspects (extraordinary sources, claims etc.) and citing them directly. The article as it exists now is very good but simply incomplete IMO. The balancing material is a) not that voluminous and b) readily verifiable from the sources (PMID only from major research centers) so hopefully things can go smoothly. Sitadel (talk) 16:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The sources added don't appear to be specific to AS, but Eubulides will know better; that paragraph doesn't belong in the WP:LEAD per WP:UNDUE, so I joined it with the previous discussion of same. Also, Sitadel, please don't tag an article POV as your second first edit to Wiki, without first attempting discussion and consensus over the text you want to add. If consensus-building fails, then tagging the article is more reasonable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sandy, please read WP:NPOV_dispute#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F which explains that the NPOV tag does not require discussion first , nor a high edit count. Also please do not remove or move well-sourced material as that disrupts work in progress. Sitadel (talk) 16:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel, please read WP:LEAD and WP:UNDUE to understand how a lead is constructed, and please gain consensus for your edits once they've been challenged. Adding a POV tag as your second first edit to Wiki, without discussion or attempts at consensus building, isn't the best way to display an interest in consensus building. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, WP:NPOV_dispute#What_is_an_NPOV_dispute.3F makes clear the tag belongs there. In the future I will work from the body first and then the lead, which I was about to correct anyway. As for WP:UNDUE, we need the sources first before we can balance them, so I will continue to add them - body first, then lead. I trust that, despite the controversy on this issue, nobody is about to remove well sourced material. Sitadel (talk) 16:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel, a few points:

• Sandy isn't saying the POV tag can't be placed prior to discussion, merely that to do so might be considered impolite. There's a difference between behaviour that is required of editors and behaviour that is hoped for. There are plenty controversial subjects on Wikipedia, many of which have been discussed to death and have reached a good state of NPOV. A newbie slapping a POV tag on an article, especially a featured one (which the community has already agreed is pretty good), is bound to ruffle some feathers.
• Your request "please do not remove or move well-sourced material as that disrupts work in progress." isn't how wiki works. See Bold, revert, discuss. You've been bold. Some of that may be reverted. Now discuss.
• Earlier comments on our policy on living persons do not apply here. That policy addresses statements about specific living people, not population-groups. We all want to be sensitive but Wikipedia is not censored.
• You say "I trust that, despite the controversy on this issue, nobody is about to remove well sourced material." Having well sourced material is only the first vital step. The tone and quantity of text covering a particular POV may upset the balance. At the extreme, some opinions are held by so few people (even if eminent) that their presence in the article might not be warranted. This is what WP:UNDUE covers. So, yes, well sourced material might end up being removed or reworded.
• You will find that editing a highly controversial subject is best done by making suggestions on the talk page (for example, proposing some new or changed text, with sources) and then seeing what consensus develops. Too much bold-editing and reverting just makes everyone fall out.
• Remember that different editors are located in different time-zones, so be patient.

Regards, Colin°^Talk 18:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll second what Colin has said, and add that the material proposed by Sitadel (talk · contribs) is sourceable and relevant. There will inevitably be some back-and-forth about how to present the sources most accurately, but no one is out to get anyone and I think all of the people who have commented here (including Sitadel) share the goal of making this a better article, so let's work from there. One point of Colin's that deserves special reinforcement is that on an article like this, which has been the subject of extensive discussion and collaboration, it's often best to come directly to the talk page if one of your edits has been reverted, and discuss it. Often that will lead to a solution everyone's happy with, whereas reinserting the material without coming here just gets everyone worked up. MastCell ^Talk 18:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Some other general editing notes; please make sure sources added are specific to AS and not generalized to autism spectrum disorders (I don't believe the sources added are, but Eubulides will know better). Also, to maintain consistency in citation formatting, see the Diberri PMID template filler. The incorrect hyphenation of the new section heading will need to be fixed if that heading endures. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Current version is:

Some researchers dispute the notion that AS is necessarily a disability.[5] A number of studies claim areas of superior functioning in those with High Functioning Autism (HFA). The distinction, if any, between AS and HFA is unclear; some researchers consider HFA identical to AS, others consider AS a subset of HFA, a minority consider AS distinct from HFA.[24] Studies do report that people with HFA tend to out-perform the general population on certain neurological tests involving memory, visual discrimination, and other areas.[25][26]

This steps towards original research/WP:SYNTH in my mind - some people say HFA is the same as AS; people with HFA do better than the general population on some measures; (THEREFORE) people with AS do as well at these tests as well'. This seems inappropriate to me. Also,

Other problems I see:

1. The use of 'if any' seems weaselly to me
2. 'A minority consider AS distinct from HFA' - really? HFA is a stubby page compared to this one, if AS was the minority position, then the quality should be reversed. The HFA page doesn't support this link at all, and further states that HFA doesn't appear in the DSM or ICD-10. And the statement is linked to a book, not a journal, from 1998. If it was a minority in 1998, either the book is the minority position, there's been no publication on the subject, or they've all switched from the minority to the majority in believeing that the two conditions are separate. In general, this section needs much better referencing.
3. This section should be mentioned in the HFA page, as the 'guts' of the assertion of superior ability, references 25 and 26, discuss HFA and not AS. I very strongly feel that it is a WP:SYNTH to say that these articles justify people with AS having superior abilities based on the linchpin of a single 10 year old book (note that Klin has more to say on HFA/AS links, but the assertion is still suspect simply because 25 and 26 are not about AS). WLU (talk) 19:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, I don't think it's necessary to put the {{NPOV}} tag on the page if the sole consideration is this one point; the "difference rather than disability" distinction is in the lead and the "advantages of AS" is still tenuously sourced rather than unequivocally correct. There is discussion on the page, the tag seems unnecessary to me. WLU (talk) 19:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I moved the POV tag to the disputed section, as a start. I agree that it probably ought to be removed, especially since we seem to be making progress, and restored if and when we hit a serious roadblock. But I'll leave that up to others. MastCell ^Talk 19:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Besides being incorrectly hyphenated, the section heading "non pathological aspects" is POV, as it implies the rest of the article sections focus only on pathology. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel, consensus can change, but most of your concerns have been well covered in archives, so it would be helpful to all, and a timesaver for you, if you would review all archived material beginning with August before undertaking changes against consensus; it will give you a better basis for knowledgeable discussion here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - this has been covered and you might find more sources that modify or temper your editing. Try here and here for previous discussions. And in addition to being problematically referenced, I also think it's an extremely ill-chosen section title. Further, since in your (Sitadel) opinion the POV problem is restricted to a specific section only, I think MastCell's suggestion of moving it to a section is better than placing it at the top of the article - unless you believes the entire article is in dispute. Sitadel - the polite thing might be to discuss this on the talk page or drafting a section on a sub page and work towards a consensus rather than insisting on the main page changing. A consensus-supported version will last far longer and be defended by more editors than one acceptable to only one editor, even if it does take a bit longer. The difference between getting a desired version right now versus permanently is the support of your fellow editors. WLU (talk) 20:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Positive? Everyone hates us because of our neurological defect, only maybe being really smart is positive, but nothing else! Except maybe eidetic memory. DarkestMoonlight (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Non pathological review

I looked at this version of the article and have the following comments about the new section:

• "The distinction, if any, between AS and HFA is unclear; some researchers consider HFA identical to AS, others consider AS a subset of HFA, a minority consider AS distinct from HFA." This is not a comment about non pathological aspects; it is a comment about classification. And it duplicates the comment "The extent of the overlap between AS and high-functioning autism (HFA—autism unaccompanied by mental retardation) is unclear" which is already in Asperger syndrome#Classification, a comment that is already supported by the exact same citation (along with two other citations). I removed this comment as being duplicative and out of place.
• "Some researchers dispute the notion that AS is necessarily a disability" is not a comment about characteristics; it is about whether one should view these characteristics as a disability or as a condition. This duplicates a much more extensive comment already present in Asperger syndrome#Cultural aspects, namely "Simon Baron-Cohen has argued that AS and high-functioning autism are different cognitive styles, not disabilities, and that a diagnosis of AS/HFA should not be received as a family tragedy, but as interesting information, such as learning that a child is left-handed. According to Baron-Cohen, 'people with AS/HFA might not necessarily be disabled in an environment in which an exact mind, attracted to detecting small details, is an advantage.'" This more-extensive comment is a more-accurate and more-extensive summary of the cited source. I removed the shorter comment, as it doesn't add anything and is not in the right section.
• "Studies do report that people with HFA tend to out-perform the general population on certain neurological tests involving memory, visual discrimination, and other areas." This new quote is duplicative of the following existing quote in Asperger syndrome#Other symptoms: "Many accounts of individuals with AS and ASD report unusual sensory and perceptual skills and experiences. They may have superior performance in tasks like visual search problems that require processing of fine-grained features rather than entire configurations." The citations in support of the new quote have problems, though. The first citation, Caron et al. 2004 (PMID 14728920), was about both AS and HFA, but results for AS are not broken out separately, rendering it difficult to draw conclusions about AS per se. The second citation, Beversdorf et al. 2000 (PMID 10900024), is about HFA, not AS, and has several problems (discussed in Talk:Asperger syndrome/Archive17 #Detailed commentary on sources) that indicate some real questions in using it as a reliable source for a featured article in Wikipedia. That same discussion also covers Caron et al. The primary studies are somewhat contradictory and often don't seem to be replicated. In cases like these it's better to rely on reviews. I made this change to merge the duplicative quotes into a new paragraph under Asperger syndrome#Other symptoms, citing Frith's review instead of the two primary studies.
• I hope these changes address the issue of whether Asperger syndrome#Characteristics is neutral and therefore removed its POV-section tag.

Eubulides (talk) 08:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with your assessment. On careful reading, it appears the information was already there and had better sources. Colin°^Talk 09:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I am amazed and dismayed that this discussion was brought to a conclusion, and the material removed, without so much as waiting for me to respond . This material was well-sourced and accurately conveyed. I shall contact an admin. Sitadel (talk) 15:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

There are two admins here already, Sitadel. Regarding the text removed: the section heading was POV and biased, the text did not apply to Asperger's (rather autism spectrum disorders and HFA), and the text was not sourced to secondary, reliable sources, rather primary sources. If you propose text on this talk page before adding it, we can help you learn Wiki policies and guidelines. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Remaining POV issues

In reviewing the above and the change logs, I found one remaining POV issue: in this change log entry Sitadel writes "I dispute the neutrality of the lead and the entire article, as the lead makes no mention of neutral or positive aspects." Reliable surveys of all of AS, which include McPartland & Klin 2006 (PMID 17030291) and Klin 2006 (PMID 16791390), do not mention these "neutral or positive aspects" at all. Asperger syndrome is therefore going out on a limb somewhat by briefly covering this topic under "Other symptoms". It would be a severe case of undue weight to highlight the topic in the lead. The POV tag is therefore not justified, and should be removed. If the field evolves so that the topic becomes more mainstream it would be appropriate to mention it in the lead; but in medical articles Wikipedia should follow the standards instead of trying to set them. Eubulides (talk) 08:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Aforesaid tag removed cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree, though in gauging weight, one must be aware of wider media interest, not just the what the experts find interesting. I don't believe that AS is "going out on a limb" by attempting to cover this topic, but do agree that in doing so it must only use the very best sources (which may limit what can be said at present). Colin°^Talk 09:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree with all, we exhaustively combed all secondary sources to cover all latent advantages and positive aspects (see archives), except one potential source that I've been suggesting for a year and a half. To my knowledge, no one has yet accessed this source. I suggest it may be the only remaining source that may include some latent advantages, as Cohen tended to write about positive aspects. If Sitadel wants to tag the article POV, we will need reliable, independent, secondary sources that have not been given due weight in the article; as of now, there are none. I concur with Eubulides' removal of the duplicated text and the text that didn't apply to Asperger syndrome. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the handbook you mention (Handbook of Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders, 3rd edition, ISBN 0471716987) is a fine one. I also recommend Autism and Pervasive Developmental Disorders, 2nd edition (ISBN 0521549574); it's smaller but more up-to-date. Unfortunately, I have ready access to neither source. The latter source is cited in Asperger syndrome only because I took the trouble to get a copy temporarily. Eubulides (talk) 21:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

For all the complaints we've heard about lack of published advantages or positive aspects, it's stunning that not one of the "complainers" has gotten hold of those books in a year and a half. Cohen's book on Tourette syndrome was my source of latent advantages in TS, and he tended to seek out, respect, and write about positives. People in the Tourette syndrome community were quite upset that Volkmar (autism) was chosen over Leckman (Tourette) to replace Cohen as director of the Yale Child Study Center when Cohen died. The tone of publications from the Yale Child Study Center is exceptional, and much of that came from Cohen, who is co-author of at least the first book. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

In their defense we are talking about books that cost about US$140 and $90 right now, and I'd guess most Wikipedia editors are not close to a medical library that has them. However, just now I used Google Books to track down any references in these books to the two sources Sitadel's edits introduced to the article, namely Beversdorf et al. 2000 (PMID 10900024) and Caron et al. 2004 (PMID 14728920). This search must be taken with a grain of salt, since Google Books won't let me look at all the pages. That being said, the newer book (ISBN 0521549574) says (p. 84) "Several studies have documented normal recognition memory in autism, in higher functioning, older participants" and cites Beversdorf et al.; this suggests again that Beversdorf is not a good source to support claims of enhanced memory. The newer book does not seem to cite Caron et al., but after discussing "integrative deficits" and "sensory jumbling" it says (p. 72) "However, paradoxically it is also often observed that children with autism can show extraordinary sensitivity to miniscule changes to particular patterns which are associated with their obsessive behavior, for example, in arrangements of objects or minor flaws in well-known visual stimuli. This 'enhanced' perception usually involves low-level processing of particular features and is commonly domain-specific rather than generalized." It goes on to describe individual studies along these lines and then summarizes (pp. 72–73) "Generally, the picture with regard to perceptual development in autism is not a clear or straightforward one, with anomalies and idiosyncrasies within this population across developmental periods, which require further research". These quotes are more detailed than what is already in Asperger syndrome, and come from a higher-quality source, so I made this change to improve the article. Eubulides (talk) 23:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Inter-library loan :-) Eubulides, the sentence about "excellent perception" leaves me hanging, because there are so many different uses of the word/types of "perception". Is there any way to tighten that up? As currently written, it could imply socially perceptive, for example. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I changed it to "excellent auditory and visual perception". Eubulides (talk) 23:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

So, now how do we account for McPartland's statements about deficits in visual-spatial perception and auditory perception? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that. What a memory you have! I made this change to attempt to account for that. Eubulides (talk) 00:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

We were pushing through a lot of work at that stage :-) Can you glean anything useful from this summary of the Frith Emanuel Miller lecture? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Nothing jumps out at me. The only topic that I see that might fall under "other" is memory, but if you read the next section (scan for "Beversdorf") you'll see that the memory subject is all over the map, and Frith's brief quote doesn't help much. Perhaps if we look for memory issues elsewhere? Eubulides (talk) 01:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

My recollection is that we already did, and it was all over the place; back then, I re-reviewed every source and pulled out everything I could find. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I am dismayed and amazed that this conclusion was brought to a close, and the material removed, without so much as waiting for my response to this discussion. That material was well-sourced and accurately rendered. This is not the wikipedia way, folks. Sitadel (talk) 15:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiki works via consensus, and there are about half a dozen editors explaining the problems with the inserted text; if you propose future additions on talk, we can help you learn Wiki guidelines and policy. The text added was based on primary sources, did not apply to Asperger syndrome, duplicated text already in the article, and/or contained a biased heading. There were quite a few problems. I hope you'll look up the source I recommended above, as I continue to believe it may be an untapped resource. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

This particular issue has been dealt with at least twice since I've been editing the page, and that's only a couple months. The problem is not that we hate AS or aspies, the problem is there is not an extensive discussion of the 'advantages' of AS in reliable sources. That is our limiting factor; considering this is a featured article on a medical topic (see WP:MEDRS), only the best references, discussed and summarized in the most accurate way, are acceptable for the page. If you can find references that explicitly discuss 'asperger syndrome, that are medically reliable sources, then it can go on the page; HFA has its own article, and is not considered equivalent to AS. If you sincerely wish the page to demonstrate the good aspects of AS, you must demonstrate to all the involved editors that this conclusion represents a well-discussed topic in the medical literature. If you can do this, you will see all opposition fold like a wet hankerchief. WLU (talk) 15:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV - Discussion

These sources highlight neutral and positive aspects of Aspergers/High Functioning Autism/Autism Spectrum Disorder. Note they do not call for tolerance of Autistic deficits, but acknowledge special abilities. These sources need to be worked into the article, including the lead, to portray AS in a balanced way; as a neurological condition in which deficits often accompany special abilities.

I was asked to work slowly when I first came; so I began with two sources. My contribution was summarily deleted. Here, then, are a well of sources, culled from the Talk pages of this article actually. I do not know how to proceed, honestly, so long as editors feel free to delete well-sourced material unilaterally.

Adding some comments to accompany. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

---

"AS, more than perhaps any other developmental disability, highlights the need for research to consider not only the deficits displayed by individuals with this condition but also, and importantly, their strengths and even special talents... The studies reported here throw light on the nature of the deficits in the condition, but alongside of these there are areas of not just intact performance, but also of unique skills." -- Simon Baron-Cohen, "What's so special about

Asperger Syndrome?" Brain and Cognition 61 (2006) page 2. [Mathematical Talent is linked to Autism, [5]

This is opinion by BC, and a survey. The abstract indicates this is about autistic spectrum conditions, and specifically states cases of autism were found, not AS. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• memory

Beversdorf DQ, Smith BW, Crucian GP, et al. Increased discrimination of "false memories" in autism spectrum disorder. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA (peer reviewed, eight research centers participating) "We found that individuals with ASD are able to discriminate false memory items from true items significantly better than are control subjects. Memory in patients with ASD may be more accurate than in normal individuals under certain conditions. These results also suggest that semantic representations comprise a less distributed network in high-functioning adults with ASD. Furthermore, these results may be related to the unusually high memory capacities found in some individuals with ASD." PMID 10900024

Again, this is about autistic spectrum disorders, not Asperger. Unless the body breaks it down into speicific analyses that differentiates AS from the rest, it is inapplicable. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• memory/visual

Do high functioning persons with autism present superior spatial abilities? Caron MJ, Mottron L, Rainville C, Chouinard S.

"Superior performance for individuals with HFA was found in tasks involving maps, in the form of superior accuracy in graphic cued recall of a path, and shorter learning times in a map learning task. We propose that a superior ability to detect ... simple visual elements yields superior performance in tasks relying on the detection and graphic reproduction of the visual elements composing a map. Enhanced discrimination, detection, and memory for visually simple patterns in autism may account for the superior performance of persons with autism on visuo-spatial tasks that heavily involve pattern recognition"

PMID 14728920

Again, HFA, not Asperger. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• vision :

Superior visual search in adults with autism. "Recent studies have suggested that children with autism perform better than matched controls on visual search tasks and that this stems from a superior visual discrimination ability. This study assessed whether these findings generalize from children to adults with autism. Experiments 1 and 2 showed that, like children, adults with autism were superior to controls at searching for targets. Experiment 3 showed that increases in target-distractor similarity slowed the visual search performance of the control group significantly more than that of the autism group, suggesting that the adults with autism have a superior visual discrimination ...ability." PMID 15358868

Again, autism, not Asperger. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• vision Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders (Netherlands, peer reviewed, two research centers participating).

Superior Disembedding Performance of High-Functioning Individuals with Autism Spectrum Disorders and Their Parents: The Need for Subtle Measures. "We assessed the disembedding performance on the Embedded Figures Test (EFT) of high-functioning subjects with autism or autism spectrum disorders from multi-incidence families and the performance of their parents. The individuals with autism spectrum disorders were significantly faster than matched controls in locating the shape, but their parents were not faster than a control group of parents. However, both the individuals with autism spectrum disorders and their fathers made significantly fewer incorrect attempts before finding the right shape than matched controls." PMID 16612576

Again, ASD and autism, not Asperger, unless it breaks down results by groups and includes AS as a separate part of the analysis.

• acoustic: Enhanced Pitch Sensitivity in Individuals with Autism: A Signal Detection Analysis [6], doi:10.1162/089892903321208169,

HFA and musical savants; HFA may or may not be AS, but right now there is not an unequivocal agreement about it, so we can't lump them together. I've seen no discussion that explicitly states individuals with Asperger syndrome are all musical savants, so there is even less overlap there. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• general (secondary source - not a primary study):

Is Asperger’s syndrome/High-Functioning Autism necessarily a disability?, Simon Baron-Cohen, U. Cambridge Centre for Autism Research "This article considers whether Asperger Syndrome (AS) or high-functioning autism (HFA) necessarily lead to disability or whether AS/HFA simply lead to 'difference'. It concludes that the term 'difference' in relation to AS/HFA is a more neutral, value-free, and fairer description than terms such as 'impairment', 'deficiency' or 'disability'; that the term 'disability' only applies to the lower functioning cases of autism; but that the term 'disability' may need to be retained for AS/HFA as long as the legal framework only provides financial and other support for individuals with a disability. PMID 11014749"

BC's opinion, lumps two conditions together, and already cited twice in the body of the article, once in the lead. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• general (secondary source, not a study)

Autism: Common, heritable, but not harmful. "We assert that one of the examples used by Keller & Miller (K&M), namely, autism, is indeed common, and heritable, but we question whether it is harmful. We provide a brief review of cognitive science literature in which autistics perform superiorly to non-autistics in perceptual, reasoning, and comprehension tasks; however, these superiorities are often occluded and are instead described as dysfunctions." doi:10.1017/S0140525X06319097

No easy link, but the above text discusses autism, not asperger syndrome. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Keller & Miller's paper "Resolving the paradox of common, harmful, heritable mental disorders" (PMID 17094843) is the source being criticized by the above quote; the quote is from the "Open Peer Commentary" part of that journal, and is commentary about Keller & Miller. The commentary, Gernsbacher et al. 2006 (doi:10.1017/S0140525X06319097), is by the same research group that produced Mottron et al. 2006 (PMID 16453071), which Asperger syndrome already cites. This group have produced other papers which argue the same point, e.g., Dawson et al. 2007 (PMID 17680932). None of their papers are specific to AS, unfortunately; for example, Gernsbacher et al. 2006 does not even mention AS. It would be undue weight to cite all the papers produced by this research group; one should suffice, and the one currently cited is the strongest one I know. Gernsbacher et al. 2006 is one of the weaker sources, as it's merely a comment about another paper and is not Pubmed indexed. Eubulides (talk) 20:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• general (not a study)

Enhanced perceptual functioning in autism: an update, and eight principles of autistic perception. "We propose an "Enhanced Perceptual Functioning" model encompassing the main differences between autistic and non-autistic social and non-social perceptual processing. Increased perceptual expertise may be implicated in the choice of special ability in savant autistics, and in the variability of apparent presentations within PDD (autism with and without typical speech, Asperger syndrome) in non-savant autistics. The overfunctioning of brain regions typically involved in primary perceptual functions may explain the autistic perceptual endophenotype. " PMID 16453071

A proposed model, not a test, and already in the page, though rather uncharitably, in the 'other symptoms' section, and discusses autism as a general diagnosis - what does the full text say about Asperger specifically? I'd say it could be moved to the bottom since the rest are pretty much negative, while this does indeed discuss a potential advantage (also a disadvantage when attempting to process certain types of perceptual tasks and inputs). Eub. probably has something more nuanced to say about the whole article. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the model shouldn't be in Asperger syndrome#Other characteristics. It's a model, and it's about mechanism. I moved the discussion of that model to Asperger syndrome#Mechanism. Thanks for catching that. Eubulides (talk) 20:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• abstract reasoning

The Nature and Level of Autistic intelligence. "A third of the subjects scored above the 90th percentile on Raven's Matrices" PMID 17680932 Full article [7]

Autism, not asperger. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel (talk) 15:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Formatted for readability WLU (talk) 15:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Apologies to Sitadel, I've made some formatting (not content) changes for readability, then hit an edit conflict. I'll try to clean up the mess. One point first though - all references to ASD and HFA are probably irrelevant - this is the Asperger syndrome page, and AS is not the same thing as ASD and HFA. WLU (talk) 15:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning up the formatting WLU, but this is text duplicated from archives (and then copied across many off-Wiki autism activist websites canvassing against this article[8][9][10]) and already covered. Sitadel, it would be more effective to just link to the archive, rather than duplicating text. All of these sources have already been covered in archives. I guess a starting place would be to inquire if you (Sitadel) are aware of the difference between primary and secondary sources (reviews), and if you understand the issue of due weight in the WP:LEAD. To tag the article POV, you should present independent, reliable secondary sources which have not been given due weight in the article. Everything that was mentioned in secondary reliable sources has been mentioned, and these sources have already been discussed. Also, remember this article is about AS, not ASD or HFA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Also see WP:TEND, WP:POINT and WP:DE regards this edit - we are attempting to accomodate your desires to see this. Continuing to add a tag when no-one else thinks it is necessary and there is an ongoing dialogue on the talk page and people are dealing with your comments and concerns, isn't assuming good faith or WP:CIVIL on your part. Please keep this in mind. If you have exhausted all of your arguments and you still think the page is biased, then add the tag. WLU (talk) 16:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanx for the formatting! In neurology, researchers avoid the Asperger's/HFA/ASD debate by referring almost universally to "High Functioning Autism" or to ASD. Certainly AS is an ASD as it is defined as an Autism Spectrum Disorder. Certainly we cannot reject all of this material by deciding that HFA is not Asperger's. I would suggest we provide this issue as an overture to the material above that refers to HFA/ASD. There are three sources in the article already discussing the terminology confusion; we should present that confusion to the reader, rather than deciding on our own AS is distinct from HFA and zapping all sources which use the latter. Also, some of the above sources use the term AS.

Certainly AS is an ASD as it is defined as an Autism Spectrum Disorder. Certainly we cannot reject all of this material by deciding that HFA is not Asperger's. I would suggest we provide this issue as an overture to the material above that refers to HFA/ASD. We don't decide anything; that would be original research. We report what independent, secondary, reliable sources say. You would find much less resistance to adding some of this material (if based on secondary sources) to the HFA article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is crystal clear on the POV tag. It is not the result of a failed discussion. It indicates a discussion is taking place. Sitadel (talk) 16:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is taking place, and it can take place, but it duplicates long discussions already had in archives, and the tag goes against consensus although no new sources have been presented. Have you reviewed the archives, and have you reviewed the policies and guidelines I've raised above? Do you have access to that book I've suggested to see if there is any new material there? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is crystal clear on the POV tag. Also, quoting from the page you cite: [11] "Rather, the tag should be removed only when there is a consensus among the editors that the NPOV disputes have indeed been resolved." Consensus is strongly in favor of removing the tag, and this discussion has already been had in archives. Do you have new sources to present? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

After reviewing all of the articles raised, they all discuss ASD or autism in general, with only one real exception (Mottron 2006, already cited twice in the article - though I hope the body has more discussion of Asperger than the abstract otherwise it's a stretch). Not to beat a dead horse, but the page is about Asperger syndrome, not high functioning autism, the autistic spectrum, or autism in general. These citations are potentially useful there, but of extremely limited use here, particularly for such a strong assertion that Asperger syndrome is automatically an advantage, or automatically advantageous in certain situations. The page discusses the 'difference, not disability' extensively; I just don't see any reason to include a greater discussion of the potential advantages of Asperger syndrome based on this evidence. WLU (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Sitadel - this has been discussed before, you are pulling information from the archives which has already been dealt with - in some cases, twice. The page requires new information, because we've already dealt with this. Three times as of 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC) As SG said, much of this would be good in the HFA page, which is quite bare of content and has I think only 3 soures. HFA does not equal AS. I'm reaching the point of asperity. WLU (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Off-Wiki canvassing

Considering the off-Wiki canvassing about these specific sources ([12][13][14]) we should expect to see other editors appear here, confused about Wiki policies and guidelines, and predisposed to believe "NTs are trying to bias the article" to a "pathological" view. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a good place to use the shiny new {{recruiting}} template, perhaps? MastCell ^Talk 22:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Good addition (and there's a lot more where those links came from); we should expect editors to come here with predisposed ideas about this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• ANI discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Paragraph discussion

Regards the wee paragraph from Asperger_syndrome#Other_symptoms this version "Some of the perceptual differences are surpluses. Individuals with AS often have excellent perception.[20] Individuals with AS and ASD have superior performance in tasks like some visual search problems that require processing of fine-grained features rather than entire configurations.[21]", I've two problems. First is it reads a bit choppily - could 'surpluses' be replaced with something a bit more descriptive? Could the second sentence be moved to the first, and integrated to make the surpluses more clear? And in the final sentence, given that [21] is, according to the abstract, 'proposing a model' rather than validating it, is 'Individuals with AS and ASD have superior performance...' a bit strong? Would it be better written as 'it is proposed by...' or 'Some individuals with AS and ASD may have...'? WLU (talk) 11:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree the text is awkward. I drafted the 1st sentence as "Not all of the perceptual differences are deficits." which has its own problems. Perhaps the simplest solution is to remove the 1st sentence. Alternative suggestions are welcome. As for the 2nd sentence, I agree that the source is proposing a model (and is not strictly a review) and the 2nd sentence should be toned down some. The paper is proposing a model, but it supports the proposal by a review of the literature, and it is that review that this section is appealing to. I would prefer a review-paper-only, but this is the best source I know of now. I made this change to implement these suggestions. Eubulides (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, WLU, how could you? <grin> A one-sentence, choppy section: [15] Any ideas how to fix that? One-sentence sections don't get past FAC and FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I did say I hated it :P Here is the total set of changes; the most valuable I think is the movement to the bottom to separate the 'pathological symptoms' from the 'good ones' (blech, scare quotes). I think the section heading is valuable because it uses the word 'advantages' and separates it from the rest of the symptoms, as the word alone has inherently negative connotations. However, I think the section heading could easily be removed and dealt with via a sentence in the paragraph. Also, someone with full-text access should review it to make sure I'm being faithful to the Firth and Mottron articles. And yes, I'm aware of the passive voice. I also hate that : ) Go at it, hammer and tongs. After a year and almost a half, I'm no longer attached to my prose :*( WLU (talk) 17:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Pop! The sound of my concerns disappearing. WLU (talk) 18:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Some further improvements:

• "Other" is too short a subsection header; it's ambiguous. Since it's the "Characteristics" section, "Other characteristics" is better.
• The intro paragraph of the subsection continues to talk about "symptoms"; it should say "characteristics" to be consistent with the new title and theme.
• The organization put perceptual surpluses off in a separate paragraph at the end, to emphasize it, but this unfortunately separates it from another paragraph talking about perceptual differences. It's better to put this discussion together. To emphasize surpluses, let's mention them first.

I made this change to implement the above suggestions. Eubulides (talk) 20:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree on "Other characteristics", as it violates duplication of words per WP:MSH. In fact, I'm in favor of brevity in section headings and no repeat words unless absolutely necessary. But I don't care enough to change it; not a big deal :-) Agree throughout with minimizing the word "symptom" in favor of "characteristic". Agree with consolidation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Fair enough; I changed the section header back. This naming approach won't scale well, if we eventually need an "Other" subsection for (say) Asperger syndrome#Mechanism too; but I guess we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Come to think of it, "characteristics" is the wrong word here: although the behaviors in question are associated with AS they are not characteristic of AS. So I changed "characterstics" to "signs or symptoms" in the body; I hope that removes any connotation that the differences are all negatives. Eubulides (talk) 21:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks good; I see what you mean on "Other", but we can cross that bridge if we come to it. "Signs" covers the non-"symptom" (as in "medicalization") issue. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Moved and re-spaced 'cause it was getting awkward. WLU (talk) 22:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Towards resolution

I'll second what Colin has said, and add that the material proposed by Sitadel (talk · contribs) is sourceable and relevant. There will inevitably be some back-and-forth about how to present the sources most accurately, but no one is out to get anyone and I think all of the people who have commented here (including Sitadel) share the goal of making this a better article, so let's work from there. One point of Colin's that deserves special reinforcement is that on an article like this, which has been the subject of extensive discussion and collaboration, it's often best to come directly to the talk page if one of your edits has been reverted, and discuss it. Often that will lead to a solution everyone's happy with, whereas reinserting the material without coming here just gets everyone worked up. MastCell Talk 18:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion has rapidly dispensed with most of these sources, but with no input from the person who raised the issue (me).

Mastcell finds the material i proposed sourcable and relevant. He invites back-and-forth discussion.

I would be happy to discuss changes here first, and refrain from editing, provided others agree to the same. Let us discuss this material point-by-point, and Mastcell - may I ask that you join in as informal mediator? So that each point can be dispatched quickly once both sides have made their case?

I applaud the amount of time other editors are able and willing to spend on wikipedia, enabling them to make dozens of edits per day. I ask that we work at a slow pace, in order to accomodate the fact I can only volunteer 60-90 minutes or so, in the evening, US-EST. Wikipedia philosophy makes prominent mention that full-timers should deal fairly with part-timers to counter the systemic bias created by differing ability to invest time.(Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias)

The importance of this was poignantly raised here, A cumulatively dysfunctional system

Wikipedia's days are numbered, I fear, consumed by its own nonfeasance. Tribes of influential (= have the most free time on their hands) admins and editors have decided that WP policies say something other than what they actually say. They want to have loose reigns to make WP their playground for their own particular agendas. People who follow strict and standardized interpretations of policies threaten that and must be stalked and rebuffed.

In fairness to all, some very venerable wikipedians are silently watching this discussion. I should like to make this Talk page a model of fairness and policy-based dispassion. I consider that Mastcell has invited us all to do that.

What say all of you? Sitadel (talk) 18:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd say we've dealt with your sources more than fairly. You provided sources from the archives. I assume that within the archives were comments very similar to those I made - most were not about asperger, the one (IIRC) that was, was already in the article, and the article has been changed to place more emphasis on the 'advantages' discussed within it (fine detail processing rather than global, again IIRC). If you have new sources, provide them. Otherwise, we've reached the limit of what can be discussed. MastCell, what do you think of my characterization of the community's response to Sitadel's requests? WLU (talk) 18:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I would object on the rather simple basis that I did not have a chance to participate in the discussion. Which is, i think you'll admit, something 'less than fair.' Mast? Sitadel (talk) 19:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you have anything to add beyond what is in the archive? Dealing with arguments that have been dealt with before is not a good way to spend any of our time. Here are the reasons why they were rejected in this round. Do you have a rebuttal? Is my analysis of the articles incorrect? Do you have more sources? These are the key questions now. You had, and still have a chance to participate. The reason why these sources were rejected are right there. WLU (talk) 19:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict with WLU) Well, you are participating now. I see two relevant sections above:

1. One titled "Non pathological review" where Eubulides reviewed (mostly) your additions. The argument for removing/revising these changes centred on (a) that they were duplicating existing material and/or (b) that they weren't specific to AS.
2. One titled "NPOV - Discussion" where you added a load of sources/quotes to the talk page. These were responded to mostly by WLU but a few also by Eubulides. Again, most of the issues were that the sources weren't specific enough to AS.

To save going over too much old ground, which of those responses do you disagree with? Would you consider, as suggested, adding some of them to the HFA article, for example?

As for "refrain from editing", an absolute ban (equivalent to page protection) probably isn't necessary or wise. I'm sure we can agree for a degree of restraint on editing this aspect of AS, such that the addition/removal or substantial modification of text should be discussed here first, and some consensus reached. Colin°^Talk 19:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't time now, and should like to start anywhere, tho not necessarily constrain the discussion to a response to Eu's assessments. I think a good starting point, tho, is the AS/HFA terminology conflict. This is a deep issue, and we may wish to invite subject matter experts to this article to comment on it. I'll follow up tonite or tomorrow, and hopefully we can continue in this vain of consensus building. Sitadel (talk) 19:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Eub, Sandy, what is the relationship discussed in reliable sources between HFA and AS? Is there sufficient agreement or discussion to expand the current mainspace attention paid to the idea? Note, Sitadel, that those references of the advantages of HFA are still better placed on the HFA page. If there is an overlap posited between the two conditions, that can be mentioned here, but that does not mean the a new section should be added to this page. The proper relationship is an advantages section on the HFA page, and a discussion of the possible overlap here. To say 'HFA and AS are/may be the same thing' and use that as a pretext to add a section on the advantages of AS is still not appropriate and to suggest that they imply or state that AS must therefore have advantages would be a WP:SYNTH in my mind (but I'm not the only editor and I tend to have a strict interpretation of policy and guidelines). WLU (talk) 19:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, you asked, so here is my not-so-short answer. My impression is that most researchers these days think the question "Does the patient have HFA or AS?" is not that useful. They tend to focus more on (say) figuring out a component of a condition that predicts behavior, and not worry too much about whether an individual's official diagnostic label should be AS or some other ASD. Partly this is because the official diagnoses are not that consistent or reliable; see, for example, Williams et al. 2007 (PMID 17927727) and Mattila et al. 2007 (PMID 17450055). Currently, Asperger syndrome #Classification says "The extent of the overlap between AS and high-functioning autism (HFA—autism unaccompanied by mental retardation) is unclear. The current ASD classification may not reflect the true nature of the conditions" which is a reasonably accurate summary of how muddled this issue is. Quite possibly the definition of Asperger syndrome will change when DSM-V comes out (assuming the diagnosis isn't eliminated entirely), but that's several years in the future. If we were to expand coverage of today's distinction between HFA and AS, the new coverage would mostly consist of "this is unclear"s or "Researcher X has proposed Y but nobody else has followed up on it"s. I think most readers' eyes would glaze over and that it would be difficult to avoid original research but if someone else wants to take a shot at it I'd be willing to review the results. You might want to start by reading the proposed reclassification in Szatmari et al. 2007 (PMID 17896229), but that's just one paper. Eubulides (talk) 21:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Given that, I think the most we can say is basically what's on the page. If the field is in flux, the page can't say anything beyond that it's in flux. I would say it might open the door to allowing some of the firmer conclusions regards ASD and HFA's possible situational benefits, but I'd say only the ones explicitly linked to the spectrum as a whole, and reported in a review article or the best/most recent/most reliable books available. Report the consistencies, and leave out the inconsistencies that force us to cite the opinions of single researchers. WLU (talk) 00:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Memoirs by people with Asperger's Syndrome

There are a number of memoirs by people who have Asperger's Syndrome, such as Temple Grandin's Thinking In Pictures: And Other Reports from My Life with Autism (Vintage: 1996) and John Elder Robison's recently published Look Me In The Eye: My Life With Asperger's. These give powerful witness to what it's like to have Asperger's--what Robison calls "a way of being", rather than a disorder, with both gifts and disabilities. I interviewed Robison last week for my weekly radio show and podcast, Writer's Voice. He's local to where the show is produced (on 91.1 WMUA, the college and community radio station of the University of Massachusetts), so he came into the studio and gave a wide-ranging 40-minute interview and read passages from his book. I would like to add an external link to the posted interview on the Wikipedia page for Asperger's. I think it adds to the discussion by being not only an explication of Asperger's by a very bright and thoughtful guy "from the inside", so to speak, but also gives a flavor of Aspergian tone of voice and sense of humor. There's a priceless (and very funny) reading from a passage in his book that goes step-by-step through the tortuous process of logic by which he figured out the correct social response to a friend's comment about a co-worker who had an affair with a guy with a motorcycle. Here's the link: [16] I'd also like to add an external link to Robison's blog at [17] --Francesca Rheannon (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm discourage addition of the blog (see WP:EL, WP:RS and WP:NOT), but the other might be a possibility for addition at Sociological and cultural aspects of autism. Alternately, you could add both to the DMOZ category linked from this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Original research.

As one with AS and the co-morbid conditons Tourette Syndrome (TS) and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) the article needs a little work, about the co-morbid conditions. Yes, I am a "little professor", which partly explains my multiple personalities on Wikipedia (I really can expatiate a lot on a lot of topics that interest me). I'm nearly 60, and proffer original research as testimony. I also always suffer sensory overload in social conditions and have to go away with myself to decompress. As I enter my old age, I have become a recluse. ¶ I am not trying to turn this into a talk board on AS (though WP should establish one). I am merely saying that the article, good as it is, does not do justice to the reality. I use the term "asocial" in contrast to the sociopathic anti-social to describe myself. --Ace Telephone (talk) 06:47, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Comorbid conditions are explored more fully at Conditions comorbid to autism spectrum disorders, although that article needs work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Population in which the syndrome was discovered was under Nazi rule

Picking out abnommal behaviour of children whose society not only was at war but under the oppressive and criminally psychotic Nazi reich should be evaluated. Was the comment that the children were 'little professors' made during the war, or after the war? The point is important since the mentally ill under the Nazis were considered human inferiours fit for medical experimentation and extermination.

What was relationship the doctor had with the Nazis, if any, with regard to his practice?

71.114.181.145 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 17:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

• Asperger opposed the Nazi policies. Please see and follow up at Talk:Racial policy of Nazi Germany #Unsourced claim about Hans Asperger. Eubulides (talk) 03:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation

The link pathological needs disambig. Randomblue (talk) 17:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Hum. Pathology or psychopathology, what do other editors think? The pathology dab page was awful, I tried wikifying but I hate working with DAB pages and don't know if it's 100% correct. WLU (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Context is always helpful:

Proponents of this view reject the notion that there is an "ideal" brain configuration and that any deviation from the norm is pathological; they promote tolerance for what they call neurodiversity.

In this context, I suspect it should be to Anatomical pathology, since it's discussing brain configuration. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I bet we'll get some arguments, but given the choice of links that does seem to be the most sensible. Done. WLU (talk) 20:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Repetition

having read halfway something struck me; in the #Characteristics there is alot of repetition of terms like 'may' and 'children with/individuals with' - and the references to that expression, 'they'. This repetition becomes annoying at some point.. Unfortunately I don't see an immediate way of adressing this issue, perhaps more experienced editors can have a look at this?

The header #Causes starts with Asperger, and you need to read the rest of the sentence to know it's Hans Asperger. There's one other instance of this, in #Other. Could perhaps Dr. Asperger be used, or his full name? This issue isn't as problematic in the other instances as the preceding text clearly identifies him.

I like this talk page way of editing. 83.86.68.180 (talk) 21:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I fixed the latter problem by adding "Hans" in the two places you mention. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. The former is also a problem, but I don't see such an easy way to fix it. Eubulides (talk) 01:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Categorie

Aspeger is under the categorie genetic disorders, but I don't think it has been conclucively proven that it is gentetic. I'm me 101 (talk) 11:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe not conclusively, but Asperger_syndrome#Causes is a pretty strong endorsement of the condition being at least in part genetic. Most conditions are genetic/environment anyway, but if a reliable source says that the condition has a genetic component, then I'd say the category is accurate. WLU (talk) 14:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is genetic, and it's spelled category with a y, categorie is esperanto or something like that, maybe ido? Actually, it's Interlingue. DarkestMoonlight (talk) 18:27, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

(Non-)comprehension of facial expressions in AS?

It was my understanding that people with AS tended to have difficulty interpreting other people's facial expressions. (I remember seeing a documentary where someone with AS was explaining how he had had to learn to analyse facial details such as the corners of people's mouths or how wide their eyes were in order to determine whether they were happy, sad, angry, scared, etc.) However, this topic is not mentioned anywhere in the article, as best I can tell. Is it true, or is it a misconception? It seems to me that the facial expression issue ought to be mentioned — or, if it's a myth, it should be mentioned as being a commonly held misconception — with sources as appropriate, of course. Richwales (talk) 06:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Asperger syndrome#Social interaction does mention facial expression generation (as this is part of the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria) but it does not mention interpreting others' facial expressions. I checked McPartland & Klin 2006 (PMID 17030291) and Klin 2006 (PMID 16791390) and they don't mention facial expression interpretation either. The subject is somewhat controversial (see, for example, Jemel et al. 2006, PMID 16477517), and without a reliable review source for it I suspect Asperger syndrome should remain relatively silent on it for now. Eubulides (talk) 07:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a litte bit on it, you might want to look at PubMed numbers 12916490 and 15215211 for example, but it's not yet a very well researched area, and it's sometimes lumped together with the inability to recognize faces, which confuses the issue. 69.108.216.143 (talk) 22:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed link

A "social mentoring" project in Brighton & Hove, UK, [18], not principally because readers with AS will want to access the project, but because it is an interesting new way of approaching support for people with the condition. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:45, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

See WP:NOT, wiki is an encyclopedia, not a support group. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

No reference to 'Diet' under 'Treatement'

Under causes of autism there is a section on leaky gut syndrome which mentions casein and gluten free diets.

I have been diagnosed with AS by a medical doctor in Canada.

If I ingest casein or gluten I can definitely feel the affects after a while: at first I feel really good (20-40 minutes), then (around 40 minutes) I get really irritable and nasty (for 8-48 hours) before returning to what seems normal. This is usually attended by the so-called "milk eyes" (dark circles under the eyes indicating bruising).

I am 26 years old, have been on this (casein/gluten free) diet since I was 20. Previous to this age we all just assumed I was "moody". The effects are obvious to my family and they have reported 'contamination' of my diet successfully on those instances where I (independently) suspected my diet got 'contaminated'. Subsequent investigation affirmed, and revealed the source of, the contamination.

This type of treatment may be questionable to the mainstream, however due to my own empirical evidence and the responses of my family members I believe that it is important, being worthy of both further investigation and a mention on wikipedia. Samalander (talk) 03:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Personal experience is not considered a reliable source, and is not a medically reliable source. As autism is a medical condition, it requires discussion of treatments or causes in scientific journals, books published by recognized publishers with a reputation for oversight, and other comparable entities which ensure the information is reliable, accurate and trustworthy. If you have any sources such as this, it's possible it could be added to the page, but I'm pretty sure that it would be more likely to end up in one of the spin-off pages like causes of autism or autism therapies. The first step irrespective, would be finding sources that agree with your position. WLU (talk) 03:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

There are several sources about ASD and diets, and Autism therapies#Diets talks about this. Without sources specifically on AS and diets it's not clear what could be said in Asperger syndrome on the subject. Eubulides (talk) 07:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed External Link

http://aspergerschildren.blogspot.com/

The link above takes one to a blog entitled "Aspergers Children." The blog has a CHAT ROOM for parents with Aspergers children. Each post addresses specific issues related to Aspergers. Videos from individuals who suffer with Aspergers are also posted. I think it would be a great adjunct resource for Wiki-visitors.

Mark Hutten —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbhutten (talk • contribs) 12:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Mark —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbhutten (talk • contribs) 17:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

You will need to justify the addition according to the WP:EL policy. It appears to fail on point 11 of WP:ELNO because of being a blog. The Wednesday Island (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a support group; links like that can be added via the DMOZ link in external links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Article contradictory regarding visual perception?

first "Individuals with AS often have excellent auditory and visual perception.[18]"

then: "They may be poorly coordinated, or have an odd or bouncy gait or posture, poor handwriting, or problems with visual-motor integration, visual-perceptual skills, and conceptual learning"

these two sentences seem to contradict each other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.180.9.6 (talk) 14:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that seems off. I seem to remember (could be wrong) that the often was once a may, and as written now, it is open to misinterpretation. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

The "often" is taken from the source (Frith 2004, PMID 15056300), which says "Individuals with Asperger syndrome give ample proof that they have the intellectual resources to make sense of the physical world through often excellent perception and prodigious memory." and "Recent empirical studies in this area have provided evidence for enhanced perception in autism in auditory and visual modalities, at no cost to the global level of information processing." There is also evidence of visual-spatial deficits, but that that topic is covered (much better) in the previous paragraph of Asperger syndrome#Other, which says:

"Individuals with AS often have excellent auditory and visual perception. Children with ASD often demonstrate enhanced perception of small changes in patterns such as arrangements of objects or well-known images; typically this is domain-specific and involves processing of fine-grained features. Conversely, compared to individuals with HFA, individuals with AS have deficits in some tasks involving visual-spatial perception, auditory perception, or visual memory."

Repeating "visual-perceptual skills" in the paragraph about motor skills is needlessly confusing as well as redundant. Also, mentioning "conceptual learning" in the motor-skills paragraph is out of place; not sure where it should go, if anywhere, but it doesn't belong there. I made this change for now. Eubulides (talk) 16:47, 29 April 2008 (UTC)