Talk:Atatürk's reforms

Did Hagop Martayan really create the new Turkish alphabet?

I see a section saying that Martayan created the new alphabet, but the page on Martayan himself doesn't say this. It just says he was the lead of the Turkish Language Association in 1934, which was after the alphabet was created. So which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.43.123.87 (talk) 03:33, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Of course, Hagop Martayan did not invent the new Turkish alphabet. He does not even claim such a thing in his own Turkish alphabet article. Because he never worked on an alphabet himself. Türk Dili Dil ve Edebiyat Dergisi, Dilâçar, A. Alfabemizin 30. Yıldönümü, Ağustos 1958, C: VII, S: 83, s. 534-541 But this lie is persistently written on the page for propaganda purposes. Canuur (talk) 19:38, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Comment

does anyone know when some of these reforms changed back? the fez seems to be permitted and the dervishes are up and spinning..

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.55.110.19 (talk • contribs) 06:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC).

Hi, none of the reforms were changed back. And I have not seen a single fez during the 25 years I spent in Turkey, except in historical movies. The dervishes mentioned in the article are quite different from the "spinning dervishes" of today (which I see as a tourist attraction). The Mevlevi article says they were given permission to perform since the 1950s. Atilim Gunes Baydin 11:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

One can see fez in touristic areas in Turkey, with similar reasons to the camels there. deniz^T_C 01:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Like all Sufi tariqas, the Mevlevi order which produced the "Whirling Dervishes" is still officially banned, although it exists semi-openly. However, dervish-like whirling performances are permitted for the purpose of encouraging tourism.Dawud (talk) 06:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

It liberalized a bit a couple decades ago. People realized a hat and special dances weren't a threat to society so they tolerate them more now... 70.69.176.102 (talk) 00:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Revolution???

Shouldn't it be better if it was said revolution instead of reform. Revolution is the right translation of inkılap. Reform would be ıslahat.

The are known as Ataturk reforms in the English speaking world. See WP:NAME deniz^T_C 01:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That does not neccessarily mean it is accurate or correct that they should continue to be known as 'reforms' - it doesn't convey the true meaning 82.29.70.34 (talk) 02:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

"Reforms" strikes me as POV, though even the Catholics say "Protestant Reformation" (and not "Revolution" like they used to). What other phrases are used in the scholarly literature? Does this reflect an older usage, or a pro-Turkish one? Dawud (talk) 06:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I think, that`s right ! They were revolutions. Ataturk was a progressive statesman. Therefore you can say, he was a revolutionist ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.108.72.190 (talk) 19:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

We should use the name that is most commonly used in English. The Google search ["Ataturk's' revolutions" -wikipedia] gets 64 hits. The Google search ["Ataturk's' reforms" -wikipedia] gets 808 hits, including many from Turkish sites like this one. I also looked at a few books on the subject, to see what terminology they use to refer to Atatürk İnkılapları.

• Men of Order: Authoritarian Modernization Under Atatürk and Reza Shah by Touraj Atabaki & Erik J. Zurcher. This text mainly uses (Kemalist) reforms, but once, on page 105, Kemalist 'revolution' (with the scare quotes).
• The State and the Subaltern: Modernization, Society and the State in Turkey and Iran, Touraj Atabaki (editor). This book collects articles by several authors. Occasionally the term revolution is used, but only in the singular (like the Hat Revolution, next to hat reform). The commonly used form is Kemalist reforms.
• Turkey Today: A Nation Divided Over Islam's Revival by Marvine Howe. This book has a whole chapter entitled Whatever Happened to Atatürk's Revolution? (note the singular). Apart from that chapter title itself, the author systematically uses Atatürk's reforms.

 --Lambiam 11:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

glowing

this article is a bit glowing in places. seems like it was written more to praise these reforms than to explain them. -69.47.186.226 19:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

ditto i felt that a bit too - maybe someone should review it for NPOV im unsure how to raise it for that 82.29.70.34 (talk) 02:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

tags

I agree, it was clearly written from someone fresh from the indoctrination mill they call education in turkey. i put up unreferenced and POV tags at the religious section because here it was just blatant.

example: "It was not deaf to complaints of 'going too far' either; the reforms initially required that the Islamic call to prayer use the Turkish language rather than Arabic. Following widespread public dismay it was recognised that this requirement was excessive, and it was subsequently rescinded." Here 'it' being Kemalism, writer does not mention it was not kemalism not being deaf, but a land-slide victory in the FIRST contested election(in which this measure was the main theme) ever held since the reforms, for the opposing DP and ITS subsequent reform that rescinded this extreme measure. Incidentally the DP prime-minister who rescinded it was later deposed and hanged by the kemalists btw, so much for moderation 84.192.141.137 (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an interesting example of putting on a POV spin. Here is the edit history, restricted to this little piece:

• Revision as of 00:34, May 4, 2007 (original introduction):

  Kemalist reforms even forced to change the call of prayer from Arabic to Turkish.

• Revision as of 20:51, March 12, 2008 (removal of the slightly charged word 'even'):

  Kemalist reforms forced a change in the call of prayer from Arabic to Turkish.

• Revision as of 07:49, March 19, 2008 (more information; still neutral POV):

  The Kemalist reforms forced the Islamic call to prayer to switch from using Arabic to Turkish, to widespread public dismay. The decision was later rescinded.

• Revision as of 16:19, April 4, 2008 (positive spin added):

  It was not deaf to complaints of 'going to far' either; the reforms initially required that the Islamic call to prayer use the Turkish language rather than Arabic. Following widespread public dismay it was recognised that this requirement was excessive, and it was subsequently rescinded.

• Revision as of 00:40, August 21, 2008 (the deep end of neutrality):

  text completely removed

 --Lambiam 01:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Note for the above poster

Small note, it was the military that hanged DP PM, not CHP or any other Kemalist movement. Portions of the army did have political overtones, but more pan-Turkic than Kemalist.

"someone fresh from the indoctrination mill they call education in turkey" For someone decrying the lack of neutral POV, you don't seem to possess much of a neutral POV. Besides most education systems require singing of the national anthem, the teaching of history with the point of view of a state, like how WW1 was to defend democracy disregarding that it was all about alliances etc. Neutral POV means no bias for or no bias against.

Rewrite of introduction

I've rewritten the introduction. I have avoided making any changes of substance. Turkish friends - please check it to make sure the meaning has been maintained. (Brian 20070908)

Reference at end of fourth paragraph

Can someone with a greater technical understanding please reinstate the reference at the end of the fourth paragraph of the introduction (ends with '...and state banks'). If I do so the level 2 'political reforms' heading disappears.Conollyb 09:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

sentence with ref followed by fact tag

The political system included from one side Atatürk (the reformers) and from the other side was Turkey[6].[citation needed]

I don't understand what this sentence means and what is the fact tag for? Is the source for something else? Deniz^T_C 19:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

June 21, 1934 Law on family names.

For my Wikibook on Computers & Society I need to have a Wikipedia page on the naming law of June 21, 1934. I propose to contruct a page similar to that for Dutch names and then to link to it from this Wikipedia article on Atatürk's Reforms. (MihalOrela (talk) 07:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC))

I have added a comment into the appropriate Milestone section. The comment reads:

this needs to be expanded; also use synonyms "naming law" and "renaming law"

(MihalOrela (talk) 08:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC))

There is a (stubby) article entitled Surname Law (Turkey). How did I know? Well, I knew Atatürk himself got a surname in the process, so I looked at Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's personal life#Name (linked to from Mustafa Kemal Atatürk – see the last infobox), and found a link there to Surname Law (Turkey).  --Lambiam 12:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

1999 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.191.182.160 (talk) 17:36, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Usage of Atatürk's Name

Throughout the article, Atatürk is referred to as Atatürk and Mustafa Kemal. In the interest of elevated language, I suggest referring to him by his full name once at the beginning and then referring to him as Atatürk thereafter with no switching back and forth. Emahyar (talk) 03:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Conflict with another article

"its effect on the struggle against illiteracy was disappointing"

Turkish alphabet#Modern Turkish alphabet contradicts the above cited and quoted claim in the Educational reforms section with another cited claim that it "succeeded in achieving a substantial increase in the literacy rate of the population from a figure around 20% to over 90%". I have added a {{Contradict-other}} template in the hope this can be resolved. -84user (talk) 13:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Poor language

Could some native speaker of English language revise and correct this article, please? The text is full of incomprehensible expressions ("International depth/capitulations"!?) and misspellings. Moreover it is flawed by clumsy syntax. I recognize the Turkish English variant that I have seen just a few days ago in museums in Istanbul. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.82.19.203 (talk) 10:41, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

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Edits that clearly violate NPOV

Things like:

"However, this can also be likened to the Soviets who placed religious authorities managed by the state, to direct people to a form of "state-approved" religion.

This is also true for other religions, as some argue that even Christians were treated better under the Ottoman Empire than under the modern Turkish Republic. Regardless, the government asserted the equality of religions and rights of worship to all Turkish citizens in their own private space to the protection of the Republic. The state protected freedom of worship while itself standing aloof of any form of religious influence. Kemalist ideology targeted political Islam, but it posed a threat to the independence of the state and its ability to govern with equal concern for all."

Are stated with no citation, and are clearly not unbiased. I am going to delete edits like this, and strongly encourage this page be locked if possible since there are clearly attempts to push an agenda, by some of the contributors.

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i added image

i think it is nice. it represents everything comes in order of, especially about kemâlist reforms. Modern primat (talk) 08:11, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

this is image i writing about: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anavatan_1927.jpg Modern primat (talk) 08:11, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

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