Talk:Atheist Ireland

Dubious statements in Background section

• "Ireland has a long history of religiosity and religious conflict between its mainly Protestant and Roman Catholic communities". This makes the whole island sound like Northern Ireland!

I think you will find that there was religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants long before the creation of Northern Ireland, both North and South of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Munsterdevil (talk • contribs) 22:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The point being that the situation in terms of sectarianism is different on both sides of the border. Autarch (talk) 17:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

• Nobody denies that it is different on both sides of the border so I fail to see your point.Munsterdevil (talk) 22:56, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Given that Atheist Ireland was founded in 2008 it seems more relevant to focus on recent events (i.e. post 1969, let alone post 1921). Autarch (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

• Wrong, to understand the present, one needs to understand the past
• "As a result, the Republic of Ireland today is one of the most religious countries in Europe" - a complete non sequitur.

Agreed

• "Against this background it is extremely difficult for the growing numbers of Irish atheists and agnostics (up 59% since 2002) to identify each other, or to achieve any kind of public recognition" - no source given for the percentage rise. Autarch (talk) 18:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Also agreed

Background section

This reads Ireland has a long history of religiosity and religious conflict between its mainly Roman Catholic and Protestant communities (it should be said, however that this conflict is due to more political than religious reasons), though the religious conflict between these two groups in the Republic of Ireland is now almost non-existent, tensions in Northern Ireland unfortunately remain. According to the most recent census conducted by the Central Statistics Office of Ireland (CSO) in 2006, 95.5% of people in Ireland adhere to a stated religious belief.[3]. For this paragraph there is only one source provided and it merely gives the number of people with a stated religious belief, not how they were subdivided, let alone address the issues of history and conflict. The section breaches MOS:OPED and needs to be rewriten or removed.Autarch (talk) 18:47, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Atheist Ireland Campaigns

Removal of the Blasphemy Law

Defamation Bill

The Defamation Bill 2006 was being actively developed before coming to fruition in 2009 subsequently being renamed The Defamation Bill 2009. The bill was the brainchild of Irish Minister for Justice, Brian Lenihan originally however a shuffle in the cabinet meant Dermot Ahern would later inherit the responsibility of being the bills steward. It was signed on the 9/7/09 with a stipulation that it would come in to effect on the 1/1/10. The law defines blasphemy person as a person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €25,000. He or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion. Deverell (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The justification for re-defining the law now that has been the Irish constitution since 1937 was "A spokesman for Mr Ahern maintained that under the Constitution the Minister must have a crime of blasphemy on the statute books. 'The Minister’s hands are tied in this,' said the spokesman."l Deverell (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

In response Michael Nugent of Atheist Ireland spoke out publicly against the bill. He argued the proposed change was "silly and dangerous" and "incentivises outrage" . Deverell (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

25 Blasphemous Quotes

Atheist Ireland in response to the proposed law published 25 quotations from popular culture, the quotes were attributed to a wide range of sources including senior Irish politicians, highly popular artists and authors, Jesus Christ and Muhammed. The goal was to demonstrate the laws ineffectiveness legally as well as its intention to protect religious belief as "the legislation is so ambiguous that it’s impossible to tell how it will be interpreted by the authorities. If they attempt to prosecute us [Atheist Ireland], we will take a constitutional challenge to the courts. ”.

"The proposed law does not protect religious belief; it incentivises outrage and it criminalises free speech. Under this proposed law, if a person expresses one belief about gods, and other people think that this insults a different belief about gods, then these people can become outraged, and this outrage can make it illegal for the first person to express his or her beliefs." Deverell (talk) 19:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The publication received a lot of international attention to the law. Deverell (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Shortly afterwards Pakistan began to adopt the wording of the Irish definition of blasphemy in a submission to the UN. "the uttering of matters that are grossly abusinve or insulting in relation to matter held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage to a substantial number of adherents to that religion." Deverell (talk) 19:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed Referendum for the Removal of the Law

Three months later from the introduction of the law Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern proposed a referendum for for the removal for the requirement in the Irish constitution in the Autumn of 2010. This move was supported by Atheist Ireland. He stated in defense of his law that “I was only doing my duty” in bringing in the new blasphemy law, and that “there was an incredibly sophisticated campaign [against me], mainly on the internet.” Deverell (talk) 20:00, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

25 Day Walk

Atheist Ireland Ireland member Paul Gill in protest of the blasphemy law walked the length of Ireland i.e. from Mizen head to Malin head, to bring attention to the issue and encourage people to vote "yes". The walk began on the 6/5/10 (International Day of Reason) and finished 31/5/10 taking him his goal of 25 days to achieve. Deverell (talk) 20:00, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Secularizing the Irish Constitution

In its current form the Irish Constitution (Bunreacht na hÉireann) stipulates many preferences for a theism over atheism but more specifically for Christian religions over other religions. Througout the document there are references to God, religious offenses and the Holy Trinity; some act as barriers to public offices and other references restrict the documents protection of non-Christians.

• A legal requirement recognizing crime of blasphemy as mentioned in Article 40, 6. 1° i)
• A religiously worded oath to be sworn by the President or a Judge in Article 12, 8. "In the presence of Almighty God I ,do solemnly and sincerely promise and declare that I will maintain the Constitution of Ireland and uphold its laws, that I will fulfil my duties faithfully and conscientiously in accordance with the Constitution and the law, and that I will dedicate my abilities to the service and welfare of the people of Ireland. May God direct and sustain me."
• The preamble of the constitution asserts all authority is derived from the Holy Trinity and all actions are done in the name of it. In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ . . .

Atheist Ireland wishes for a referendum(s) that remove these references to the constitution.

Deverell (talk) 21:29, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Secular Education

Primary Education

There is approximately 3,300 primary schools in Ireland. The vast majority (92%) are under the patronage of the Catholic Church who state Catholic schools seek to reflect a distinctive vision of life and a corresponding philosophy of education, based on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. and that Religious education, prayer and worship form an essential part of the curriculum, functioning at its core. Such learning is founded on faith and inspired by wonder at the transcendent mystery of God revealed in the complex beauty of the universe.Deverell (talk) 18:50, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

A small minority (1.2%) are under either multi or inter denominational schooling under the patronage of Educate Together. The remainder of the schools are stewarded by other minority religions. Deverell (talk) 22:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

This system contrasts to Irelands agreement to the United Nations International Covenant on Civil & Political Rights in which a UN Human Rights Committee drew attention to the Irish Government not upholding: Freedom from Discrimination (Article 2 of the Covenant); Freedom of Conscience (Article 18); the Rights of the Child (Article 24); and Equality before the law (Article 26). Deverell (talk) 22:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Michael Nugent makes a distinction between a secular education and an atheist education and says that Atheist Ireland is simply pushing for secular reform and not the introduction of atheist education. Deverell (talk) 22:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

The 25 blashphemous quotes and the walk should definitely be mentioned, as they got some publicity, especially the former.Autarch (talk) 12:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree they should be mentioned. You can be frank with me, no need for hints - are you suggesting the rest of the campaigns don't warrant elaboration? I also think it's somewhat important to briefly explain the status quo that the campaign hopes to change. The campaign for secular education and a secular constitution have received a few mentions in print. The apostasy and bible reading campaigns - not so much. Deverell (talk) 13:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

References

Proposed Introduction of Criticisms of Atheist Ireland Section

Atheist Ireland is often seen as controversial we should reference press articles and published letters that critique the organizations efforts and doctrines. Deverell (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

That would require references - not sure if they've been going long enough to cause enough controversy - IIRC the opposition to the blasphemy law was popular.Autarch (talk) 20:29, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

"Often seen as controversial" by whom? It's the first I've heard of it. If you're going to add anything like that you'd better make sure to cite it. And please sign comments. --Eamonnca1 (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Indeed there has been criticism of Atheist Ireland in spite of it being a young organization. I'll spend some time gathering links and dump them back here and we can discuss it. Yes, sorry I should sign my comments. I assumed wikipedia did it for me automatically. I would imagine the lions share of the criticism comes from theists but criticism from independent and secular sources is of course welcome too. Deverell (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Here are some points made against Atheist Ireland. Unfortunately I only found one valid criticism - Brenda O'Briens comment that Atheist Ireland should have teamed up with others against the blasphemy law. The rest are mostly either ad hominems or non-sequitars by confusing Atheist Ireland with atheists.

1. David Quinn (Catholic apologist and head of the Iona Institute) states Atheist Ireland is anti-religious motivated by hatred and disdain of religion. He cites something happening in Canada; and the French Revolution who were atheists killing in the name of reason. It's still worth a discussion. Deverell (talk) 15:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Any advice on how to rephrase Quinn's suggestion to Atheist Ireland should look at whats happening in Canada - he actually does say it. I have no idea what he is talking about though. Deverell (talk) 18:37, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

2. John Waters (IT religious/social columnist) criticizes AI's motto claiming that it doesn't reference anywhere that ethical secularism works. He also states

"Atheist Ireland also seeks to remove the influence of Catholicism/Christianity from education, to prevent Irish children, as Nugent put it, “being told these fantastic tales before they reach the age of reason”. I felt I was at a meeting of coeliacs campaigning to have all gluten-containing products removed from the shelves."

He also cites several instances of how members of the organization aren't funny.Deverell (talk) 17:36, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that the comments about them not being funny has any relevance, nor his comments about feeling like he was in a coeliacs meeting, but his criticism of ethical secularism seems valid. If you can cite it then I feel it would be worth including. Robdonncom (talk) 14:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

3. Debate between John Waters and Cormac Flynn of CountMeOut on "The Tom McGurk Show" (mp3) Broadcast July 15th 2009, 4fm.

John Waters describes the people in Atheist Ireland as dull and boring. Deverell (talk 17:50, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Not really a criticism of the organisation but rather just an ad hominem against the members. Robdonncom (talk) 14:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

4. Brenda O'Brien thinks Atheist Ireland requires a leap of faith in it's ideology. Deverell (talk) 18:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Again, not really a valid criticism of the organisation. Robdonncom (talk) 14:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

5. Brenda O'Brien states Atheist Ireland didn't take the opportunity to team up with secularists, theists and agnostics who were against the blasphemy law. She doesn't criticize the 25 blasphemous quotes but does criticize the comments following the published quotations. Deverell (talk) 18:18, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

This could be considered a valid criticism about AI not working with groups outside of the atheist community, but we should check first to see if they actually did or not. Robdonncom (talk) 14:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

References

Founding of Atheist Ireland

The first paragraph at the top of the page is a distortion of the facts. By all the normal measures and standards I, as a registered user of atheist.ie founded Atheist Ireland. The opening paragraph should read "founded by FXR, a registered user of the atheist.ie website". There was no organisation in existence to which one could belong as a member. The founding thread and the thread announcing the booking of the hotel room by me are recorded here: http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=34&start=250 (copies of these pages have been archived to protect them) Funkyderek is a member of Atheist Ireland who was not present or involved at the time. His first post on the website was almost a year after the first meeting (Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:02 pm). http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&author=funkyderek&start=270

I'd like the page changed to reflect the facts. I have links that demonstrate the build up and record the first face to face meetings of atheist's in Ireland. I organised them: I have links to the pages and an archived record of each.

Note also: Nugent was elected at the first meeting by people who could not have been members at that time. I have a complete video of the first meeting which I can make available. He was not elected as chairman by a paid registered Atheist Ireland membership (as opposed to registered users of the website) until almost eight months later. The first AGM did not take place until July 2009 http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2404&p=24499&hilit=agm#p24499 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fexro (talk • contribs) 14:13, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I understand the claim. Atheist Ireland was formed on 30 November, 2008 by a group of around 50 people as detailed by Fexro. Those 50 people elected Michael Nugent as their interim chairman. When the details and rules and membership fees were worked out, Michael Nugent was elected as chairman at an AGM by paid registered members of Atheist Ireland (and again at AGMs in 2010 and 2011). Fexro seems to be claiming that he single-handedly founded the organisation simply because he booked the hotel room where it was founded. His apparent desire to claim the organisation as his idea is especially baffling as he appears to oppose the existence, aims and leadership of the organisation. Funkyderek (talk) 16:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC0

Funkyderek's inability to understand hardly need to be stated. The organisation came about as a result of two threads both of which I posted. It was the first thread that brought into being the idea of an atheist association in Ireland. There is no record available of the people who were in the room. There is no record available that indicated how many of those present later joined the organisation or how many simply turned up, voted and left. Present were members of the Humanist Association of Ireland, including the then chairman Dick Spicer, a friend of Michael Nugent, who voted him into becoming chairman. Michael Nugent is a member of the HAI. He was not elected chairman by an Atheist Ireland paid registered membership until eight months after the first meeting. That's a fact. I resigned after a meeting that took place one week later in the Royal Dublin Hotel on the 6th December. Publishing the minutes of that meeting might help to fill in some more of the history and make the account more comprehensive.

As regards the founding of Atheist Ireland there is a thread that is now located in the section Feedback About Atheist Ireland there is this post dated Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:57 pm posted by Michael Nugent;

Can I add to this, on behalf of the commitee, that we would like to thank Frank for his role in the setting up of Atheist Ireland.

He started the process with a post on this forum which prompted Frank to reserve a room in the Central Hotel where Atheist Ireland was subsequently founded, and he was an important contributor to the online discussions that led to the organisation being established last week.

At our first committee meeting, we arranged the roles and responsibilities of each officer. Frank decided not to continue as membership officer, because the time requirements clash with other activities that he is already committed to. Frank will still be a member of Atheist Ireland and will continue to be a valued contributor to the site.

The committee has co-opted Seamus Murnane (CatHerder) as our new membership officer until the first AGM.

It was followed by this post by Seamus "Catherder" Murnane posted 2 minutes later on Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:59 pm

I would also like to thank Frank personally for his contribution to the growth of the atheist.ie forum by his contributions to discussions in over 2500 posts, arranging and promoting the first real-life get-togethers, such as the Darwin Day Dinner, purchasing and donating tickets to the Hitchens/Waters debate in the Gate Theatre, instigating and encouraging email campaigns and his regular recruiting of potential members on other sites and welcoming of new subscribers to atheist.ie.

• I don't think any of the above statements are in dispute. What I continue to fail to understand is how FXR/Fexro/Frank's suggestion that atheists should form a group makes him the sole founder of the group that was later formed. While he initiated the process, it's clear that he did not, indeed, could not have, founded the organisation himself. As FXR accepted a nomination as membership officer of the newly formed Atheist Ireland, it seems that, at the time, he believed the organisation had been founded, and that Michael Nugent had been elected chairman. As he claims this was done by the people in the room, it is clear that everyone who was in the room and voted was involved in the founding of Atheist Ireland. FXR seems to be implying that some sort of coup was staged, whereby the room was filled with members of the HAI who simply voted and left. Even If that were the case, then it would be those people who founded Atheist Ireland, as it did not exist in any form before that meeting. If FXR's claim is simply that he tried to found a group and wanted to form a group with himself as leader but was thwarted by a conspiracy against him then that's a very interesting insight into his own psychology but is not really relevant to the actual founding of Atheist Ireland. I think it would be better for FXR to continue the discussion here until we can come to a consensus rather than keep clumsily vandalising the article page. funkyderek Talk 11:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• I had thought the current rewrite of the Formation section which includes full details of Fexro/FXR's contributions would be enough to satisfy his desire for recognition, but he now seems to believe his username needs to be in the introduction. It's not at all obvious to me why this should be the case. His involvement was so trivial, brief and long ago that it can hardly be considered to be one of the most significant things about Atheist Ireland. funkyderek Talk 19:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Funkyderek/Derek is only succeeding in demonstrating that an atheist organisation can produce fanatical cultish behaviour in it's followers just as much as any religious sect. The organisation should be the subject of an additional section on cult like behaviour among the membership. The constant attempts to distract from the facts are as much to cover up the fact that the founding of the organisation has been the subject of false claims and misreporting. This is an organisation more concerned with massaging it's self image than anything that atheism might be said to be founded on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fexro (talk • contribs) 21:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

• Frank, this really isn't helpful. Let's try to get this sorted out, shall we? As far as I understand, we're largely in agreement on the facts. I'm reasonably happy with the formation section as it stands. For my liking, it's more about you than it needs to be but nobody is denying the significant role you played in the setting up of Atheist Ireland, and I think all the relevant information is now included. I don't think your name belongs in the introduction section for the reasons I stated above. Perhaps it should be rewritten completely, but I really don't think the recent change you made adds anything useful. If you think there are facts that have been covered up, you need to provide evidence of that (or at least a claim) elsewhere and then link to it in Wikipedia, perhaps in a "Criticisms of Atheist Ireland" section. funkyderek Talk 23:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
• Having done some research and spoken to some of those involved, I have rewritten and expanded the "formation" section to include the contributions of everyone involved. I don't think I've left out anything of relevance. funkyderek Talk 12:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to rewrite the section since you don't seem to have any great talent for research Derek (assuming you wrote the whole thing). Firstly if you had researched the situation properly you'd be in possession of the minutes of the meeting that took place in the Royal Dublin Hotel on December 6 2008. You've also rewritten it to cover up the fact that any reference to real life meetings omits the fact of who actually organised those meetings. That's quite cultish behaviour to say the least.

If you are in possession of the Dec 6 minutes then I'm sure you won't mind posting them so people will have a better insight into the kind of organisation Atheist Ireland really is. After all you're a dedicated atheist who believes in pursuing the truth and all the other pseudo pretensions AI dresses itself in.

You'd should have discovered that the first mention of forming an atheist organisation was when I posted in the private section which was well before the clumsy attempts by Spicer to get involved. Of course if your "research" is limited to asking people who'd rather you didn't know the full facts you're hardly likely to get at the truth. You might explain how you managed to get so mixed up as to claim a user named "plainwaves" had any bearing on the formation of Atheist Ireland. "Plainwaves" only joined the site on October 16 2008 and stopped posting 13 days later on October 29, 2008. There is also a mention of "Lampshade" but no mention of the fact she was a member of the Humanist Association of Ireland. Neither is there any attempt to count the number of people involved with the HAI who voted for Mr. Nugent at the first meeting, one of whom was Mr. Spicer, a friend of your chairman who'd he (Mr. Spicer) had been pushing as chairman. You might also fill out the article by mentioning that there have never been any other candidates for chairman in the entire history of AI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fexro (talk • contribs) 15:31, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

• Frank, all the information I provided is referenced. If you have other accurate information to add that you can support with references, then please do so. Wikipedia is not the place for you to pursue your bizarre vendettas, even if you're banned from practically everywhere else. funkyderek Talk 10:39, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

References

Updating "Secularising the Irish Constitution"

This section describes three goals, the first of which has been achieved - the removal of the law against blasphemy by the Thirty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland. It might be amended to mention that this has been done, with a very brief history from the Defamation Act 2009, through the Constitutional Convention to the amendment. Autarch (talk) 17:32, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Issues remaining in the article in 2024

Looking at the article I've noticed:

• There is still a very large number of references linking to atheist.ie - surely there are WP:RS that can also be used?
• Tone - this article could be rewritten to sound more neutral.

Autarch (talk) 17:43, 29 January 2024 (UTC) A couple more issues:

• Some of the phrasing is verbose - I've edited some sentences to make them more concise.
• Some of the text is dated - I've tagged one sentence that claims that no referendum has been held on the blasphemy law as needing an update - an amendment has passed removing the ban on blasphemy. This article needs a thorough update. Autarch (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2024 (UTC)