Talk:Atilla Kiss B.

Attila B. Kiss or Attilla Kiss B.?

George Lascelles, 7th Earl of Harewood specifically writes in his article in Opera that the name of this artist should be given as Attila B. Kiss and not Attilla Kiss B. He makes a point of addressing the name issue. Given that the source, which has now been removed, was the best English language reference for this article, and also one of only two tertiary sources given in this article I am not sure the decision to change the name and remove the reference was wise. Best.4meter4 (talk) 23:36, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Harewood is undoubtedly a better source, especially if he explicitly addresses the name issue. Kiss is a common Hungarian surname. I can't see why anyone would abbreviate a second surname after that. (The other possibility is that it should be "B. Atilla Kiss" given the way Hungarian names are rearranged in English, but I'd go with Harewood). --Folantin (talk) 07:12, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Is there a link to Harewood's article available? A quick search shows that The Guardian and many other publications use "Attila B. Kiss" (tt–l), including The Budapest Times ("Suffering past, present and future").

How many "t"s and "l"s? Note that Attila is spelled tt–l, even in Hungarian. However, the most common Google result is for the Hungarian Wikipedia variant "Kiss B. Atilla" (t–ll 7280); then there is the more English version "Attila B. Kiss" (tt–l 6190), followed by "Atilla Kiss B." (t–ll 1520), then "Attila Kiss B." (tt–l 934), and 40 for "Atilla B. Kiss" (t–ll); almost none for "Attilla B. Kiss" (tt–ll). I wonder what User:ChrisPsi's argument for the odd order "Atilla Kiss B." is, which is neither Hungarian nor English.

Following Google and English sources, the previous name "Attila B. Kiss" (tt–l) seems reasonable, plus a REDIRECT for the Hungarian "Kiss B. Atilla" (t–ll). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The "Atilla" spelling is certainly odd. As you say, Hungarians usually spell the name "Attila", most famously and influentially Attila József (incidentally, the Wikipedia article on him claims "his foster father said 'There is no such name as "Attila"', and therefore called him "Pista".'). --Folantin (talk) 08:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I fully understand the confusion. Still, the "odd order" (ping Michael Bednarek) Atilla Kiss B. is the most appropiate in non-Hungarian text (e.g. English). Since the Hungarians write the family name first, and the christian name last (in this case Kiss B. Atilla), and the abbreviation B appears in the middle of the name, it is fully understandable that cofusion - and faults - about the name occur. However, the source I added, http://opera.hu/tarsulat/szemely/cc9e6eb2aac04856a56d6e94d2f2653a/ from the Hungarian Opera House, clearly states that that the order Atilla Kiss B. is the preferred in texts in languages other than Hungarian. This source (Hungarian source in English language) shows the same. They both show that the spelling with one t and two l:s is the one he uses, although it is not the common spelling in Hungarian. Furthermore, (ping Folantin) the letter B is an abbreviation for his wife's family name Balbinat, which he added when he married. See this source. ChrisPsi (talk) 08:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

After reading the second source provided by ChrisPsi ("Atilla Kiss B. – Atilla B. Kiss made his debut …"), I think we can use whatever version. I'm out of here. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, Chris. This is certainly a unique situation. Like Michael, I no longer have any strong preference either way, although whichever version is preferred maybe there should be a footnote explaining things for the perplexed. --Folantin (talk) 09:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Given the Hungarian name practices, his surname is clearly "Kiss"—not "B". Regardless of the vagaries of the Hungarian Opera's attempts to translate his name into English, it is most likely that his name English-style, is "Atilla B(abilat) Kiss" per Harewood. As for the spelling of his first name, the single "t" is not the more usual spelling in Hungary, but on the other hand, it's also spelled "Atilla" (one "t") on the websites of the Hungarian Academy of Arts and the Hungarian State Opera. Note also that he was born in Romania where the name seems to be is commonly spelled "Atilla" (one "t") [1]. I would title the article Atilla B. Kiss or even better Atilla Kiss (tenor) and forget about the problematic "B." Voceditenore (talk) 09:39, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Voceditenore that it would be best to remove the problematic 'B.' altogether. There is no need for the tenor disambiguation either since there are no other people with that name on wikipedia. I propose we simply retitle the article Atilla Kiss.4meter4 (talk) 15:17, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, the reason I suggested the disambiguator is that there is an article for the Hungarian politician Attila Kiss (two "t's"). That's mighty close and potentially confusing. Voceditenore (talk) 07:02, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Any objections to Voceditenore's proposed move?4meter4 (talk) 23:27, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

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