Talk:Atlantic Branch

The name of this article

I have consulted dozens of maps, schedules, and books, some going back decades, and can find absolutely no reference to the line of the LIRR that runs in Atlantic Avenue being called the "Atlantic Branch". Please provide a source. Jd2718 01:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[1][2] --NE2 01:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Renewing the question: Does it (still?) exist??

According to LIRR Branch Timetables there's an Atlantic Terminal BUT no such thing as Atlantic Branch. I think, for our pages to be most helpful for readers, we need to use the LIRR terminology - or at least stick much more closely to it. I see 2 possible current uses - one being just the branch between Atlantic Terminal and Jamaica, the other being outdated historical usage--JimWae (talk) 22:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It's a branch in the sense of 'a defined dead-end section or subdivision of a railroad'. The LIRR is branched on the eastern end (with the LIRR's published branches) and the western end (with the Atlantic Branch, the Main Line (to LI City) and the East River Tunnels to NY-Penn). Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It does not seem to be a term currently used by the LIRR. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LIRR_schematic.svg - and hence confusing--JimWae (talk) 23:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Then what do you propose to call it? It's a section of track between Jamaica and Valley Stream that has historically been called the Atlantic Branch, and anecdotally I've heard modern LIRR employees use it when discussing operations. It cannot be merged with City Terminal Zone; it includes the Jamaica-Valley Stream section which is not part of the CTZ. It's one cohesive (and mostly historical) article, because the whole AB was once effectively used as a rapid transit line. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:46, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

LIRR calls the portion east of Jamaica the Far Rockaway Branch[3]. How does it serve readers if we create our own branch designations for stations? There do seem to be some sources (such as this) for calling the Jamaica-Atlantic Terminal section along Atlantic Ave the Atlantic Branch --JimWae (talk) 10:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No, the Far Rockaway Branch begins at Valley Interlocking at near Valley Stream station. That trains that use the Far Rockaway access it via the Atlantic Branch is reflected in the public timetables, just as Babylon Branch service trains are still on the Montauk Branch.

It's seems that the issue is the difference between the public timetable service names (which all contain the word "branch") and the actual name of the branches and lines, which are in the employee timetables. The latter are the real names, and the ones we should use for articles. I've previously thought that the Ronkonkoma Branch article should be merged into the Main Line (LIRR) article. oknazevad (talk) 00:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Then we have conflicting sources. But the sources that I have presented are publicly available. We editors cannot decide that what the public schedules say is wrong based on info not available to other editors here. At the very least 1>Template:Far_Rockaway_Branch needs to include more stations, AND 2>this article needs to acknowledge that the LIRR publishes no schedules for any Atlantic Branch, AND 3>even that what is called the Atlantic Branch is not clear (as it seems it is also being applied to just the section between Flatbush & Jamaica.--JimWae (talk) 02:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Also: The link to Schedules at http://employee.lirr.org/ does not have any Atlantic Branch (it too goes to LIRR Branch Timetables )--JimWae (talk) 02:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

As you note, those are just a link to the public timetables. The employee timetable is a different document, one that employees are required to carry, which includes much more information on the physical characteristics of the railroad, such as: track diagrams that show interlocking names and limits, maximum allowed speeds (MAS), and full line names; handling instructions; special/specific employee procedures for certain segments; and division posts and line changes. These are the physical characteristics maps for the LIRR. This clearly shows not only the use of the name "Atlantic Branch", bit also that the name does apply to the portion between Jamaica and Valley Stream used by Far Rockaway trains. This is known, verifiable information.

I also disagree with the statement that the LIRR doesn't publish schedules for the Atlantic Branch; I have such pocket schedules.

Honestly, I think you may have been looking at this the wrong way. Editors of rail articles are usually a pretty knowledgeable group, even if their citations are skimpy. oknazevad (talk) 03:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the discrepancy is between a perspective relating to service vs the physical "last branch off" from a track used in common (at junctions) - but on the LIRR the "final" branches can reconnect via switches. In any case, the LIRR articles need to be written from the perspective of the users of the services, not that of the small minority of employees and retired employees--JimWae (talk) 02:37, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. An encyclopedic treatment of a technical field should be technically accurate. oknazevad (talk) 03:21, 19 September 2011 (UTC) PS, indenting is a good thing.

I think it would clarify things if we distinguished lines from branches - Main Line, Montauk Line, Atlantic Line; and branches can be as currently defined by LIRR (Ronkonkoma Branch, Montauk Branch, ...) That would be accurate, historical & currently useful. --JimWae (talk) 21:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Except that the physical lines are properly named "Branch", with the exception of the Main Line, which already has a separate article. The terms "Montauk Line" and "Atlantic Line" would be original creations, which is not allowed. oknazevad (talk) 15:08, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Stations that existed after the improvement and electrification

• Flatbush Avenue (underground terminal)
• Nostrand Avenue (elevated side platforms)
• East New York (surface side platforms)
• Warwick Street (elevated island), closed 1939
• Chestnut Street Junction (surface; not a station)
• Autumn Avenue, earlier Railroad Avenue (surface side platforms), closed 1939
• Union Course (surface side platforms), closed 1939
• Woodhaven (surface side platforms), closed 1939
• Woodhaven Junction (surface side platforms), closed 1977
• Clarenceville (surface side platforms), closed 1939
• Morris Park (surface side platforms), closed 1939
• Dunton (surface side platforms), closed 1939
• Jamaica

--NE2 05:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Initial rapid transit stops (1877)

"Steam Motors". Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Brooklyn, NY. 12 August 1877. p. 4.

• Flatbush Avenue
• Vanderbilt Avenue
• Grand Avenue
• Franklin Avenue
• Nostrand Avenue
• Brooklyn Avenue
• Albany Avenue
• Troy Avenue
• Utica Avenue
• Rochester Avenue
• Ralph Avenue
• Hopkinson Avenue
• Stone Avenue
• East New York

--NE2 10:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Also see "To Abandon Crossings". Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Brooklyn, NY. 9 May 1899. p. 7. and "Application Granted". Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Brooklyn, NY. 6 July 1899. p. 6.: [4][5]. --NE2 12:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Also "Rapid Transit". Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Brooklyn, NY. 13 August 1877. p. 4.: [6][7] - also states that through trains made no stops between Flatbush and East New York except Bedford, at least after rapid transits began. --NE2 01:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

An 1890 map (NYPL 1519748) shows the following stations:

• Flatbush Avenue
• Vanderbilt Avenue
• Grand Avenue
• Franklin Avenue
• Nostrand Avenue
• Brooklyn Avenue
• Kingston Avenue
• Troy Avenue
• Utica Avenue
• Ralph Avenue
• Saratoga Avenue
• Rockaway Avenue
• Manhattan Beach Railroad Crossing
• Pennsylvania Avenue
• Van Siclen Avenue (between Miller and Van Siclen)
• Linwood Street (between Elton and Linwood)

--NE2 22:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The following are on an 1897 map:

• Flatbush Avenue
• Vanderbilt Avenue
• Washington Avenue
• Grand Avenue
• Bedford
• Nostrand Avenue
• Brooklyn Avenue
• Schenectady Avenue
• Utica Avenue
• Rochester Avenue
• Ralph Avenue
• Rockaway Avenue
• Manhattan Beach Railroad Crossing
• Alabama Avenue
• Wyona Avenue

--NE2 01:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

1877 through stations

This information is from [8], except west of East New York.

• Flatbush Avenue
• Bedford
• East New York
• Cypress Avenue
• Union Course
• Woodhaven
• Jamaica

1898 temporary discontinuances

The starred stations were discontinued in 1898 with the opening of the Chestnut Street Incline.

• Flatbush Avenue
• Vanderbilt Avenue*
• Grand Avenue*
• Bedford
• Nostrand Avenue*
• Brooklyn Avenue*
• Kingston Avenue*
• Troy Avenue*
• Utica Avenue*
• Ralph Avenue*
• Saratoga Avenue*
• Rockaway Avenue*
• East New York
• Howard House
• Pennsylvania Avenue*
• Van Sicklen Avenue*
• Linwood Avenue*

--NE2 23:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Mentions of stations

• Flatbush Avenue (no need to list mentions here)
• Vanderbilt Avenue
• Washington Avenue
• Grand Avenue?
• Bedford/Franklin Avenue
• Nostrand Avenue
• New York Avenue
• Brooklyn Avenue/Tompkins Avenue
• Kingston Avenue
• Albany Avenue
• Troy Avenue
• Schenectady Avenue
• Utica Avenue
• Rochester Avenue
• Ralph Avenue
• Saratoga Avenue
• Hopkinson Avenue
• Rockaway Avenue
• Stone Avenue
• Manhattan Beach Railroad Crossing
• Howard House/Alabama Avenue?
• Pennsylvania Avenue
• Wyckoff Avenue
• Van Siclen Avenue
• Warwick Street
• Linwood Street/Van Wicklens
• Norwood Avenue
• Cypress Avenue
• Cypress Hills
• Autumn Avenue/Railroad Avenue
• Adamsville
• City Line
• Unionville
• Union Course
• Woodhaven/Woodville
• Trotting Course Lane
• Woodhaven Junction
• Chester Park
• Clarenceville
• Lefferts Avenue
• Morris Park
• Morris Grove
• Berlin
• Berlin Junction
• Dunton/Berlin Switch/South Side Railroad Crossing/Van Wyck Avenue
• Beaver Street

Another table

	1877	1878[9]	1890[10]	1897[11][12]	1898	1898	1899	1899[13][14]
Flatbush Avenue	x	x	x	x		n		x
Vanderbilt Avenue	x	x			x	x	x
Washington Avenue		x			x
Grand Avenue	x				x	x	x?
Bedford	x	x	x	x	x	n	x	x
Nostrand Avenue	x	x	x		x	x		n
New York Avenue
Brooklyn Avenue	x	x			x	x	x
Kingston Avenue						x	x
Albany Avenue	x	x
Troy Avenue	x		x			x	x	n
Schenectady Avenue		x			x
Utica Avenue	x		x		x	x		n
Rochester Avenue	x	x
Ralph Avenue	x	x			x	x	x
Saratoga Avenue						x	x
Hopkinson Avenue	x
Rockaway Avenue		x			x	x	x
Stone Avenue	x
Manhattan Beach Railroad Crossing	?	x	x	x		n		x
Howard House	?	x	x	x	x	n	x	x/n
Pennsylvania Avenue						x	x
Wyckoff Avenue		x
Bradford Avenue								/x
Van Siclen Avenue		x			x	x	x
Warwick Street
Linwood Street		x	x		x	x		x
Norwood Avenue			x	x			x	x
Cypress Avenue					x
Cypress Hills
Railroad Avenue
Adamsville
City Line					x		x
Unionville
Union Course
Woodhaven			x	x				x
Trotting Course Lane
Woodhaven Junction			x	x				x
Chester Park							x
Clarenceville			x	x				x
Lefferts Avenue
Morris Park			x	x				x
Morris Grove
Berlin
Berlin Junction
Dunton			x	x				x
Jamaica			x	x				x
New York Avenue			x	x				x
Canal Street			x	x				x/
Rockaway Junction			x	x				x

"Poor Train Service to Manhattan Beach". Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Brooklyn, NY. 25 June 1900. p. 1. talks about Manhattan Beach trains skipping Nostrand Avenue, Troy Avenue, and Utica Avenue. In "Manhattan Beach". Brooklyn Daily Eagle. Brooklyn, NY. 6 July 1899. p. 4. they still stopped there. --NE2 10:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Line template is messing up this article

I removed the line template because it keeps messing up the article in one way or another. ----DanTD (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

East Junction of Atlantic Branch & Main Line

What's the name of the junction east of Jamaica Station between the Main Line and Atlantic Branch? It should be included in the article, where this geotag(40.701°N 73.803°W / 40.701; -73.803) currently exists. ----DanTD (talk) 14:32, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

The split/duckunder itself has no name-- it's just part of Hall interlocking. Tim Zukas (talk) 17:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Atlantic Branch/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

To do: Figure out details of steam operations to ENY Did the pre-1877 horse cars make local stops, or were these stops introduced by the "rapid transit" service? --NE2 01:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 01:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 08:32, 29 April 2016 (UTC)