Talk:Atom (Ryan Choi)
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Grandpallama in topic Ryan Choi's creator credits
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Orphaned references in Atom (Ryan Choi)
editI check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Atom (Ryan Choi)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "dc-ency":
- From Giganta: Greenberger, Robert (2008). "Giganta". In Dougall, Alastair (ed.). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. New York: Dorling Kindersley. p. 137. ISBN 0-7566-4119-5. OCLC 213309017.
- From Aquaman: Wallace, Dan (2008). "Aquaman". In Dougall, Alastair (ed.). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. London: Dorling Kindersley. pp. 18–19. ISBN 0-7566-4119-5.
- From Crime Syndicate of America: Greenberger, Robert (2008), "Crime Syndicate", in Dougall, Alastair (ed.), The DC Comics Encyclopedia, New York: Dorling Kindersley, p. 89, ISBN 0-7566-4119-5, OCLC 213309017
- From Checkmate (comics): Beatty, Scott (2008). "Checkmate". In Dougall, Alastair (ed.). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. New York: Dorling Kindersley. p. 79. ISBN 0-7566-4119-5. OCLC 213309017.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: postscript (link) - From Deathstroke: Beatty, Scott (2008). "Deathstroke the Terminator". In Dougall, Alastair (ed.). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. New York: Dorling Kindersley. p. 97. ISBN 0-7566-4119-5. OCLC 213309017.
- From Kyle Rayner: Wallace, Dan (2008). "Green Lantern". In Dougall, Alastair (ed.). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. New York: Dorling Kindersley. pp. 144–147. ISBN 0-7566-4119-5. OCLC 213309017.
- From Batman: Beatty, Scott (2008). "Batman". In Dougall, Alastair (ed.). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. London: Dorling Kindersley. pp. 40–44. ISBN 0-7566-4119-5.
- From Chemo (comics): Jimenez, Phil (2008), "Chemo", in Dougall, Alastair (ed.), The DC Comics Encyclopedia, New York: Dorling Kindersley, p. 80, ISBN 0-7566-4119-5, OCLC 213309017
- From Chronos (comics): Greenberger, Robert (2008), "Chronos II", in Dougall, Alastair (ed.), The DC Comics Encyclopedia, New York: Dorling Kindersley, p. 82, ISBN 0-7566-4119-5, OCLC 213309017
- From Felix Faust: Wallace, Dan (2008), "Felix Faust", in Dougall, Alastair (ed.), The DC Comics Encyclopedia, New York: Dorling Kindersley, p. 120, ISBN 0-7566-4119-5, OCLC 213309017
- From Atom (comics): Beatty, Scott, Wallace, Dan (2008). "Atom I, II and III". In Dougall, Alastair (ed.). The DC Comics Encyclopedia. London: Dorling Kindersley. p. 30. ISBN 0-7566-4119-5.
{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 21:36, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
External links modified
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Ryan Choi's creator credits
editGail Simone has clarified that Ryan Choi is entirely her creation, and Morrison's idea was not used. The source used in the article ( https://www.cbr.com/atom-ryan-choi-creator-gail-simone-grant-morrison/ ) explains in detail why this misconception exists and shows that DC itself stopped crediting Morrison as early as issue #2 of the series. So DC doesn't credit Grant Morrison, Gail Simone (the writer of Choi's original series) doesn't credit Grant Morrison, therefore there is no reason for Ryan Choi's Wikipedia page to credit his creation to Grant Morrison when the only base for that is a confirmed misconception. - SupremoJunior (talk) 14:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- First, since I've reverted these changes, let me clarify that I think Simone is both credible and that her explanation is entirely plausible. However, we cannot make statements in Wikipedia's voice about creator credit based on her Facebook claim. First, on the face of it, it absolutely fails WP:ABOUTSELF. The CBR article, which I have seen before, similarly fails in that it is entirely and solely based on Simone's FB post (although it would, as a secondary source, be a better citation for her claim than the FB post itself). The CBR article then speculates that, because Morrison's name was dropped, it probably means her story was true. But there is no factual reporting, no independent confirmation, no further investigation. This fails the necessary sourcing requirements for Wikipedia to state that Morrison is not a co-creator, especially in light of the fact that they are credited as such in both the one-shot and the first issue of the ongoing series. However, Simone's post (or, better, the CBR article) is absolutely sufficient to present her claim about who created the Choi character. If we get some sort of corroborating evidence from Morrison (e.g., a FB post of their own commenting that Simone is sole creator), an explicit correction from DC about creator credit, or some sort of comment in an interview from current/former DC editorial staff stating this was an error, we can certainly make these proposed changes. But as it is, the facts of what exists are co-creator credits on the comic pages of the first issues for Morrison, and a claim from Simone that she was sole creator. Without moving into original research, we can't go beyond that. And again, I personally think Simone's version of events is probably 100% accurate. Grandpallama (talk) 16:29, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, so here is what we have: on the nearly 15 years of the character's publication, only two issues give Grant Morrison any credit; and we have word of the writer of the character's original series clarifying why she is the sole creator. Morrison never wrote one issue starring the character, never gave any interview about the conception of the character, never refuted Simone's claims and on the later 14 of Ryan Choi's history they was never again credited by DC as co-creator. Aside from those two issues, there is absolutely nothing that connects Grant Morrison to Ryan Choi's creation, and even those two issues give only a vague "based on ideas & concepts developed by Grant Morrison" which is not the same as the usual "character created by [x]", readers only ASSUMED the character was created by Morrison from that, but Morrison never claimed that. Those issues weren't written by Morrison nor were any of the subsequent Ryan Choi appearances on 15 years. DC doesn't credit Otto Binder and Al Plastino as creators of Supergirl, yet Wikipedia does. The Wiki doesn't need "official word" of the publisher saying "yes, they are the creators", because there is enough evidence to affirm that indeed they are. I believe the same applies here because, again, there is nothing but two very early issues giving Morrison any sort of credit (and a vague one at that), collected editions don't repeat those credits, and Simone's claims weren't refuted either by DC or by Morrison, so all the evidences point that Simone is in fact the sole creator of Ryan Choi. - SupremoJunior (talk) 17:06, 16 April 2021 (UTC)
- We don't need official word of the publisher, no, but we need some sort of confirmation, of which that would be one example. Your argument, while logical, is all original research, and is based on a series of assumptions (e.g., because no one refuted Simone's claim, that de facto proves it is true). As you have acknowledged, there are two issues giving Morrison credit, and we can't ignore that, unless secondary sources (somewhere) support Simone's claims. You raise Binder and Plastino, but they have significant RS coverage (going back decades) establishing them as Supergirl creators. We can't use the scant evidence here to reach our own deductions about Morrison and present that in WP's voice--it's textbook synthesis to do so. I do think we can add a line in about the CBR article pointing out that Morrison was only credited on a couple of issues, but to declare they weren't a co-creator simply takes more than Simone's FB post. That said, Morrison is active on social media, so you could always ask him about the character, and a corroborating response from them would be enough. Grandpallama (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- I understand your line of thought, but it starts from the assumption that Morrison was ever considered the creator of Ryan Choi and that is what I am pointing out. As I said, the note on the two issues that give Morrison credit specifically reads "based on ideas & concepts developed by Grant Morrison" which is not "[Character X] created by [creator Y]" (that is what DC typically uses), it never states Morrison created the character and it doesn't specify which are those "ideas and concepts". Wording is important. And in the case of the one-shot the note wouldn't even be considered inaccurate given that, as Simone admitted, she used Morrison's plot for that one story and the note could simply mean that he created the plot. Going back to Supergirl, it can be said she is based on "ideas and concepts of Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster" (which is basically how DC credits her), yet we cannot claim them as her creators. As it is now, WP is assuming Grant Morrison is co-creator of Ryan Choi based on a vague note that doesn't explicitly states what was his involvement on the two stories in which it appeared. Those same two issues also have John Byrne and Trevor Scott credited as penciler and inker, which is something more specific than "ideas and concepts", yet they aren't credited as co-creators on the page. The three of them have credits on the same two stories, but Wikipedia is assuming Byrne and Scott weren't involved on Choi's creation and Morrison was, even though the only person who gave any insight over the conception of the character was Simone, and she specifically states Morrison wasn't involved. - SupremoJunior (talk) 01:23, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- I understand your thinking, too, and I agree wording is important. I think we are somewhat stuck between what we both believe is probably true, and what the sources say. I think it's more than assumption--RS report Morrison as the co-creator [1][2][3][4] as do some unreliable and grey area sources [5][6][7]. What do you think about compromising? I suggest we leave Morrison in the various infoboxes and templates, but add a line around the text of Simone's FB claim that Morrison was only credited in the first few issues, with verbiage about the wording of that credit. (I also think we should use the CBR article, as a secondary source, rather than Simone's FB page for her quotation.) Grandpallama (talk) 15:16, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
- I understand your line of thought, but it starts from the assumption that Morrison was ever considered the creator of Ryan Choi and that is what I am pointing out. As I said, the note on the two issues that give Morrison credit specifically reads "based on ideas & concepts developed by Grant Morrison" which is not "[Character X] created by [creator Y]" (that is what DC typically uses), it never states Morrison created the character and it doesn't specify which are those "ideas and concepts". Wording is important. And in the case of the one-shot the note wouldn't even be considered inaccurate given that, as Simone admitted, she used Morrison's plot for that one story and the note could simply mean that he created the plot. Going back to Supergirl, it can be said she is based on "ideas and concepts of Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster" (which is basically how DC credits her), yet we cannot claim them as her creators. As it is now, WP is assuming Grant Morrison is co-creator of Ryan Choi based on a vague note that doesn't explicitly states what was his involvement on the two stories in which it appeared. Those same two issues also have John Byrne and Trevor Scott credited as penciler and inker, which is something more specific than "ideas and concepts", yet they aren't credited as co-creators on the page. The three of them have credits on the same two stories, but Wikipedia is assuming Byrne and Scott weren't involved on Choi's creation and Morrison was, even though the only person who gave any insight over the conception of the character was Simone, and she specifically states Morrison wasn't involved. - SupremoJunior (talk) 01:23, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
- We don't need official word of the publisher, no, but we need some sort of confirmation, of which that would be one example. Your argument, while logical, is all original research, and is based on a series of assumptions (e.g., because no one refuted Simone's claim, that de facto proves it is true). As you have acknowledged, there are two issues giving Morrison credit, and we can't ignore that, unless secondary sources (somewhere) support Simone's claims. You raise Binder and Plastino, but they have significant RS coverage (going back decades) establishing them as Supergirl creators. We can't use the scant evidence here to reach our own deductions about Morrison and present that in WP's voice--it's textbook synthesis to do so. I do think we can add a line in about the CBR article pointing out that Morrison was only credited on a couple of issues, but to declare they weren't a co-creator simply takes more than Simone's FB post. That said, Morrison is active on social media, so you could always ask him about the character, and a corroborating response from them would be enough. Grandpallama (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, so here is what we have: on the nearly 15 years of the character's publication, only two issues give Grant Morrison any credit; and we have word of the writer of the character's original series clarifying why she is the sole creator. Morrison never wrote one issue starring the character, never gave any interview about the conception of the character, never refuted Simone's claims and on the later 14 of Ryan Choi's history they was never again credited by DC as co-creator. Aside from those two issues, there is absolutely nothing that connects Grant Morrison to Ryan Choi's creation, and even those two issues give only a vague "based on ideas & concepts developed by Grant Morrison" which is not the same as the usual "character created by [x]", readers only ASSUMED the character was created by Morrison from that, but Morrison never claimed that. Those issues weren't written by Morrison nor were any of the subsequent Ryan Choi appearances on 15 years. DC doesn't credit Otto Binder and Al Plastino as creators of Supergirl, yet Wikipedia does. The Wiki doesn't need "official word" of the publisher saying "yes, they are the creators", because there is enough evidence to affirm that indeed they are. I believe the same applies here because, again, there is nothing but two very early issues giving Morrison any sort of credit (and a vague one at that), collected editions don't repeat those credits, and Simone's claims weren't refuted either by DC or by Morrison, so all the evidences point that Simone is in fact the sole creator of Ryan Choi. - SupremoJunior (talk) 17:06, 16 April 2021 (UTC)