Talk:Augustana Catholic Church

Another article

I noticed that there is also another article about Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran. These should be merged. (Terot (talk) 20:33, 2 March 2008 (UTC))

The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church is the new name, adopted in October of 2007, for the Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran. I am the Metropolitan Archbishop (Primate) of that Church. I have asked the Wikipedia "powers that be" to remove the article, Evangelical Community Church-Lutheran. So far, that has not been done. Perhaps they want to keep the former article for a time since my Church was known by its former name for 10 years. (Gladfelteri (talk) 11:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC))

In that case, I will do it by simply changing it to a redirection page (Terot (talk) 13:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC))

I have placed citations in the three places where they had been requested. The two pertaining to ordinations are from a section of the official national website of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church. The remaining reference supports the ALCC's *OFFICIAL* opinion of an aspect of the career of Martin Luther. I realize it may seem downright heretical to someone in the ELCA, LCMS, WELS, and worse to those in other Synods. However, that is, in fact what is taught by all clergy of the ALCC, in all of our parishes. I could add citations from Richard Marius's book, "Martin Luther, The Christian Between God and Death," Belknap Press of Harvard, Cambridge, MA, 1999, pp 434, 434, 472, 474, et. al.; and statements by many Roman Catholic apologists who take a dim view of Luther and his psychological problems that would inevitably affenct his ability to control his movement; but that would, in my estimation, turn at least part of what should be an informational article about the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church into a set of arguments taking on "Lutheran orthodoxy" from a (predictible, for the ALCC) strict Roman Catholic perspective; which would be unnecessarily divisive. Wikipedia seems to be not the place for polemical arguments, but facts, in this case about a Church and its *formal, official* teachings. I would point out that all clergy of the ALCC (including myself) are required to and have signed the Mandatum, a vow in the form of a legally enforceable contract not to preach, teach, write, or publish anything contrary to the Catholic Magisterium.

I am also somewhat puzzled that considering that the organization and Polity of the ALCC and the authority and powers of its bishops and its Metropolitan are in fact a mirror image of that of the Roman Catholic Church in anticipation of its visible, corporate (re)union with it one day, that an official statement on this Wikipedia article placed by myself, who, as Metropolitan Archbishop (Primate) is the ultimate authority in the ALCC, would not be considered authoritative and require a citation.

Wouldn't it have been easier (perhaps less awkward) simply for me to state that, according to the Metropolitan Archbishop (Primate) of the ALCC, there is no difference between the ALCC and the Roman Catholic Church about ordinations other than that the ALCC does not expect its clergy to be celibate? Would *that* also require a citation even though given by the most authoritative figure within the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church? I presume you do this to the Primates / National Presidents of other Churches like the Wisconsin and Missouri Synods, for instance, when they make statements about what their own Churches teach. Strange. Gladfelteri (talk) 10:56, 1 February 2009 (UTC))

I checked out the citations added earlier today and added some short instructions as to how to navigate within the cited official ALCC website to find the specific page with the citation. I also added a link to the official website of the ALCC's Archdiocese of the West which has, at the bottom the text of an ALCC *official* document, "About the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church - Frequently Asked Questions" which, more simply and directly, tells that there is no difference between the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church and the ALCC pertaining Ordination. Gladfelteri (talk) 18:48, 1 February 2009 (UTC))

On the other hand, if the purpose of the request for citations (to which I responded) was to see the position of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church in relation to traditional Lutheranism as it has developed in the last 500 years, I suggest you visit (a) the national website of the ALCC (http://www.anglolutherancatholic.org); (b) the website of the ALCC's Archdiocese of the West (http://www.ecclnet.org); and (c) (especially) the website of the ALCC's Archdiocese of Pittsburgh and the Ohio Valley (http://www.orgsites.com/pa/rac/) which is maintained by its diocesan archbishop, Archbishop Robert W. Edmondson, M.Div., S.T.D., D.Min. who, in his additional office as the newly appointed Vicar General of the ALCC, Office of the Metropolitan Archbishop, is the second-highest ranking archbishop in the ALCC - immediately below myself. I can assure you that the ALCC does not consider itself to be in any way Protestant. Gladfelteri (talk) 19:05, 1 February 2009 (UTC))

Policy Issues

It is my principal role on Wikipedia to make edits in conformity with style and other policies. When I make edits that is usually my principal concern. This should also be your principal concern. As this article currently stands it is deficient in numerous ways and it seems obvious that you do not adequately understand various Wikipedia policies - including those about writing articles about an organization you are involved in. Your personal authority within your church isn't relevant when it comes to how this article is written and, in fact, there are various policies that cover articles written by people to promote themselves or their organizations. I suggest that you study these policies as I suspect you may be in breach of some aspects of them and are running the risk of having the article removed altogether. Afterwriting (talk) 03:59, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Response: Actually, we do have the same principal concerns. I am also not interested in promoting either the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church or myself in the ALCC's Wikipedia article. I was only trying to respond to a request for a citation to verify statements in the article indicating that there was no difference between the teachings of the ALCC and those of Roman Catholicism. Keep in mind that since we have only been in existence since 1997, we are small, and no books have been written about the ALCC or have chapters about it. Due to that and to our small size, there are few people out there who are not involved in some way with the ALCC who know enough about it to write accurately about it. Anyhow, I will replace those two citations provided with a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church which accurately explain in detail the ALCC's teachings in this area.

The challenge / problem is how to accurately describe a Church which is unique / "outside the box," carrying Evangelical Catholic ("high church") Lutheranism to the point where it rejects the Reformation and has essentially become an Independent Catholic Church of Lutheran heritage, with "Newmanite Anglo-Catholic" roots, which is attempting to bridge all three traditions while accepting the faith, order, doctrine, discipline, sacraments, and varieties of spirituality of Roman Catholicism; a Church which completely rejects one major Lutheran confessional document, the "Formula of Concord"; and which applies a "line-item veto" to the rest of the Lutheran Confessions and the Anglican Articles of Religion, only recognizing as authoritative those those portions which are in full agreement with the Roman Catholic Church.

How much detail is enough? Having not enough detail will mislead some to presume that the ALCC accepts most tenets of classical Lutheranism modified by principles from the English Reformation, which would make the article inaccurate, misleading, and harmful to it ecumenically as it works toward some form of union with the Catholic Church.

For example, in the Wikipedia article on Lutherans, when it states, "Lutherans believe . . .," much if not most of the time, the ALCC does not believe what the article says Lutherans believe. If the article about the ALCC doesn't note its exceptions to mainstream Lutheranism, arguably the omission(s) alone will be enough to make the article itself inaccurate and misleading.

On the other hand, there is the need not to provide too much information, which can lead some to think we are coming close to promoting ourselves, which is something the ALCC does not want to do on Wikipedia. We have our own websites and other forums for that. On Wikipedia, we only want the article to be accurate. I am sure you want the same thing.

So, let me know specifically the areas in which you consider the article on the ALCC deficient. I will do my best to provide the requested information. Keep in mind that following the example of the Vatican's "administrative secrecy," rejecting American Lutheranism's public "transparency," and in accordance with ALCC Canon Law, some information on some items like membership statistics simply may not be released to anyone or anything outside the ALCC that does not have a legal, documentable, verifiable "need to know."

As for citations, the ALCC has not been around long enough for a book or a chapter of a book to be written about the it, many references to our positions will be citing Roman Catholic sources and documents which the ALCC considers authoritative for itself. Since ALCC accepts all the teachings of the Roman Catholic Ordinary and Sacred Magisterium and all our clergy were required to sign the Catholic (USCCB's) Mandatum last year, that is appropriate. In the meantime, I will also add some additional citations from sources outside the ALCC to illustrate some other points. I hope that helps. Gladfelteri (talk) 07:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC))

Talk:Personal Ordinariate

Apart from the Traditional Anglican Communion, the article should really consider verifying whether groups such as the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church have ever sought a similar canonical structure to the proposed personal ordinariates. ADM (talk) 18:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I came to this article because of a comment at Rorate Caeli's blog of traditional minded Catholics. There someone copies "verbatim" a purported -search comment at 22:31 the 27th from Anonymous" interchange with an authority of this Community, claiming that they're already working towards a similar solution. Might be worth following. --Wllacer (talk) 23:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The comment on Rorate Caeli's blog to which you refer is accurate. On May 15, 2009, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church officially filed a formal petition to enter the Roman Catholic Church "as a unified body" in whichever form the Pope and the Curia decides is the most appropriate. The ALCC's petition was filed with the Council for Promoting Christian Unity, and is now before the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It is a separate petition from that of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). Since we are Lutherans, not Anglicans, our (Catholic) Canon Lawyer feels (and our leadership agrees) that it is best to keep our petition separate from that of TAC. (We are thrilled and encouraged by the creation of the new ordinariates.) In the meantime, the ALCC is praying for the day to come when we will be able to legally call ourelves "Roman Catholics."

That the ALCC has filed a petition to enter the Catholic Church "as a unified body" and that action on it is pending is no secret. The text of the petition has recently been released to the public by the ALCC and is posted on at least one ALCC website (that of St. Michael's Lutheran Church in Kansas City, MO - http://www.stmichaelsalcc.org/News.dsp.) Since "the powers that be" on Wikipedia want outside references for verification of things of this sort, I have not mentioned this in the article. I think it should be there, but I want to avoid any moderator's "verification needed" flags. --Gladfelteri (talk) 11:49, 19 November 2009 (UTC))

Thanks for the kind reply. I'll try to search thru the web if there's a "better" (in wikipedia's editorial sense) reference than "Rorate"'s comment regarding ALCC's move.

My knowledge about Lutheranism is rather limited (and mostly about/around the EKD) so ALCC's spiritual journey from Wittemberg towards accepting the Church doctrine leaves me (and I suppose most outside readers) very perplexed. It is by no means a "well trodden path" as with anglo-catholics. Some sketches of it would improve the article. I know you're in an awkward position for this regarding current Wikipedia policies. But the talk page is open, so outside contributors (like me, but don't promise anything) could later "flesh it out" before, hopefully, this article becomes purely historical.

On a personal note, count on my prayers for a successful and speedy (in curial measures) "coming home" of the ALCC--Wllacer (talk) 13:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

The full text of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church's formal petition to enter the Roman Catholic Church which was filed in May of 2009, is actually posted online on the following website (http://www.stmichaelsalcc.org) at the bottom of the "News" page ( http://www.stmichaelsalcc.org/News.dsp), as is a copy of the version of the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishop's Mandatum, which the ALCC requires all its bishops, priests, and deacons to sign and with which they must comply. Gladfelteri (talk) 11:35, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

On February 21, 2011, it became public that Catholic authorities in Rome have invited the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church to join the Catholic Church through the provisions of Anglicanorum Coetibus and that the ALCC has officially and unconditionally accepted that invitation. Gladfelteri (talk) 08:17, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

The leadership of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church changed on December 1 with the resignations of Metropolitan Archbishop Irl A. Gladfelter and Diocese of Michigan Bishop David Moody. On December 12, 2011, the Holy Synod ("composed of the Bishops) of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church elected and installed Archbishop Robert W. Edmondson as the Church's second Metropolitan Archbishop. Bishop Thomas J. Stover had earlier been ordained a Bishop and installed as the ALCC's Bishop of Minnesota and Wisconsin. Accordingly, I updated the part of the ALCC's article by deleting the entries for Archbishop Gladfelter and Bishop Moody and Thomas J. Stover's entry to show that he is now a bishop and is the ALCC's Bishop of Minnesota and Wisconson. These changes in leadership have been submitted to the ALCC's webmaster and will soon be noted on the ALCC's national website (http://anglolutherancatholic.org) as soon as possible. Gladfelteri (talk) 11:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Effective on 8 April 2012, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church (ALCC) has undergone a major reorganization by decree of its new Metropolitan Archbishop. The ALCC now has three Dioceses. The the Diocese of the Northeast has been renamed the Diocese of the East and given the territory East of the Western Border of Ontario, Michigan; Ohio, Kentucky, Kentucky, and Tennessee to the Atlantic Ocean; and also given jurisdiction over the Caribbean, Europe, Africa, and South America. The Dioceses formerly having jurisdiction over those areas have been supressed, and its former diocesan bishops given Titular Dioceses and positions as Bishop Directors of the various major Church-wide offices in the Metropolitan Archbishop's Curia which are identical in scope and authority to the similar Dicasteries in the Roman Catholic Church's Curia. The Diocese of the West has been given jurisdiction over the rest of the United States, Canada, and Mexico. I will make this change in the article and change the titles of the ALCC Bishops as soon as they are posted on the ALCC's national website, with a link to that page on that website. Gladfelteri (talk) 7:51, 9 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.156.81.4 (talk)

References

External Links

The Way Back Machine does not appear to have a copy of the WELS page that was listed under General. Would somebody who knows more about the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church replace that WELS link with something that is available/findable. jonathon (talk) 17:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

The WELS page (which I removed since the link was no longer working due to an obvious redesign of the WELS site) was in a part of their website devoted to questions and answers.

In any case, another weblog ("Seventh Day Adventist to Roman Catholic, a Blog of two Churches," http://sda2rc.blogspot.com/2009/12/lutheran-catholics.html ), has an article about the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church entitled "Lutheran Catholics," (referring to it as "the communion," which states the following: "As I see it, the communion has a strong commitment to Catholic theology, but an Anglican and Lutheran vocabulary, correcting the latter by the former." This is a fair and accurate comment, which I will try to add in place of the WELS site's comment. gladfelteri (talk) 15:38, 9 July 2010 (CDT)

To avoid any confusion, I have removed the link to a reference to the ALCC on a Q and A portion of the WELS website. (The link is http://www.wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?1518&cuTopic_topicID=14&cuItem_itemID=23798 Question & Answer About the ALCC.) If anyone can locate it, it can be re-entered. gladfelteri (talk) 15:42, 9 July 2010 (CDT)

Re-entered with the help of archive.org 42.2.51.247 (talk) 05:06, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I have placed the following link to a website which lists the Churches with which the ALCC is in Full Communion in the article: http://anglolutherancatholic.org/administration-and-diocesan-offices/churches-in-communion/ . gladfelteri (talk) 11:49, 29 January 2012 (CDT)

On the 24th day of April, 2012, Archbishop Robert W. Edmondson of the the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church and Archbishop Chris M. Hernandez, Archbishop Co-Adjutor of the North American Old Roman Catholic Church - Utrecht Succession signed a Concordat of Full Communion and Pledge to Full Unity. This Concordat went into full force and effect on that day. I will post this in the ALCC's Wikipedia article (this article) as soon as it is posted on the ALCC's official website, with a link to the page on the ALCC's website carrying that information. gladfelteri (talk) 1300, 29 April 2012 (CST)

Worship

Someone questioned that worship in the ALCC is dignified ("according to who?") The questioner should have noted that this question is answered in the paragraph itself. Informal, Protestant worship is banned. This is enforced. GladfelterIrl 0107 13 Nov 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by GladfelterIrl (talk • contribs) 06:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Catholic Church naming conventions RfC

There is currently an RfC at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(Catholic_Church)#RfC:_should_this_page_be_made_a_naming_convention that may be of interest. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 23:45, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Church dissolved

According to the website of Dr. Kenneth Bakken [1], the Church has dissolved, as a U.S. organization. Comparing Wayback Machine versions of the page cited, it appears that this happened in 2020, after the death of Abp. Robert Edmondson. Bistropha (talk) 10:36, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

"Raymond W. Copp" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Raymond W. Copp has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 20 § Raymond W. Copp until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 20:56, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

"Raymond Copp" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Irl A. Gladfelter" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Irl Gladfelter" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Star Journal's orbituary

Star Journal's orbituary is marked as "(Paid Obituary)". This means this is not an indication of reliability nor of notability of Irl Gladfelter, even worse it is WP:SPS and WP:SPONSORED (as a form of vanity press).

What is not supported by a RS is to be removed from Wikipedia. Thus, if no one brings a RS to support the statement, I will remove it along with the reference given for it. Veverve (talk) 14:46, 13 April 2024 (UTC)