Talk:Australian handball

Merger into Wall handball?

It seems to me that this article and the articles on American handball and Gaelic handball are all really about the same sport and that the games played in the US and Australia all originated from the Irish game when they were brought there by Irish immigrants. I think the three articles should be merged into a single article called "Wall handball". There's a precedent for using the name "wall handball" since it appears on the official site of the World Handball Council. I'm not knowledgeable enough to say for sure or not if the rules and history of the sport in the three countries are different enough to justify there being three articles for them, though. I'd like to know what everyone else thinks. Sky Blu 2 (talk) 20:45, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposal Already Researched: Found 'Negative'

Thanks, Sky Blue. When we were first setting up this article, the same possibility was postulated, but consensus between the three of us involved decided that although the Gaelic game had been the initial prompt, the games, deviations in rules that developed over time and the 'culture' of handball among the threee nations was quite distinct indeed. There is no world governing body and the only time the three even vaguely allude to one another is when it is decided to hold a world championship: otherwise, the games all have their own rule and other distinctions.[[121.219.58.207 (talk) 13:14, 11 July 2010 (UTC)]]

Yes, but even if there is some divergence in rules in the games played in the three countries, I still don't think it entirely precludes them as being seen as just variations of the same sport. Take a sport like tennis, for example. It's played on hard, clay and grass courts, it's played in best-of-three and best-of-five formats, it's played as a singles as well as a doubles game, but it's always considered to be "tennis". Basketball, too, is played with slightly different rules across various leagues and levels. And as you said, the handball organizations in the three countries do occasionally collaborate on things like the world championships and maintain a loose affiliation with each other. It's also probably worth noting that the Encyclopædia Britannica(at least the edition that I have access to) has only a single article on "handball". I think that merging the three articles should still be kept in mind as a possibility for the future, or at least just finding a way to link them somehow. -Sky Blu 2 (talk) 05:23, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Sky Blu. We have really quite thoroughly been over the exact differences with reference to comparing this with other sports - they really cannot meet the same analogy as tennis or basketball or soccer or international hockey, or any such. These other games have a world governing, or world authoritative, body. The 3 separate nations engaging forms of 'handball' have no such auspices. They have formed completely distinctly of one another over the past 150 years and independently run their own competitions; they even use different court/field dimensions, etc., unlike the other sports you have mentioned. Thanks for your input anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.230.169.121 (talk) 06:02, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, how about just creating a single page to show that they're related which has separate links to the three articles? The reason I suggest it is that the terms "American handball", "Gaelic handball" and "Australian handball" seem to have been created entirely by Wikipedia users. I haven't come across them anywhere else. The term "wall handball" at least has a precedent for its use since it appears on the web site for the World Handball Council. -Sky Blu 2 (talk) 03:23, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, after giving it some thought, I strongly feel the three articles should be merged. The handball federations in the three countries interact with each other on a fairly regular basis. There are some variations between the versions played in the three countries, but there is a great deal that is the same, too. Also, the Encyclopædia Britannica has only one article for "handball". I have created a page called Handball (wall game) that everyone can take a look at which attempts to combine the three articles. If there are no objections in the next few weeks, I shall redirect the links to American handball, Gaelic handball and Australian handball to point there. Sky Blu 2 (talk) 09:19, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

EDIT: The sample for a possible merger between the three articles has been moved to my sandbox page: User:Sky Blu 2/sandbox- Sky Blu 2 (talk) 15:57, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

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Similar game called "downball"

In Melbourne in the 1980's there was a similar game called "downball". (This contrasted with four square, which was never called "downball" there, at that time.) The key difference between this form of downball and Australian handball is that

• Australian handball is described as requiring the ball to be hit into the/a wall first, and it then may bounce onto the ground,
• but in downball the ball must be hit/thrown into the ground first, after which it must bounce into the/a wall. (I.e. the ball is directed downward, and then bounces up.)
  

(Each of these differs substantially from four square, which has a regular grid marked on the ground, with nominated roles and a fixed numbers of players, and doesn't involve any wall.)
—DIV (1.129.111.116 (talk) 02:58, 20 October 2019 (UTC))

Just found the WP article: downball. It's a different game from both Australian handball and foursquare, as per my description above. —DIV (1.129.111.116 (talk) 03:06, 20 October 2019 (UTC))

Reference

Text I removed from downball could be used here?

[[Australian handball]],<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/groups/oc/pdf/The_Strand_July_03.pdf|archiveurl=https://web.archive.org/web/20080722214036/http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/groups/oc/pdf/The_Strand_July_03.pdf|archivedate=2008-07-22|title=Wayback Machine|date=22 July 2008|publisher=}}</ref>

—DIV (1.129.111.116 (talk) 03:40, 20 October 2019 (UTC))

"Real" name required

Who is the mysterious "Legendary Jmaz"? On the basis that this (see: [1]) is the only entry listed as a contribution from this anonymous individual, strongly suspect that this "edit", made six years ago, was bogus and, therefore, was an until-today-unrecognised case of vandalism. Lindsay658 (talk) 23:42, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Several issues with this article.

Many of the issues are related with the sources. I suspect part of the reason is that they are difficult to access and read. I have gone through each source, and attempted to verify them to the best of my abilities. I may have made mistakes.

1. "Handball" The World Book Encyclopedia. This articles says "Handball is a lively game popular in the United States Canada, and Europe." It then mentions the rules for the Handball game originating from Ireland.
   1. This source does not mention anything about Australia, even though it is used as a source for several facts relating to Australia.
   2. This source does not mention a "Melbourne hotel-keeper, Michael Lynch."
   3. This source does not mention "Tim Tucker, and George Macris."
   4. This source does not mention "Australian Handball Council, formed in 1928."
2. "Eddie has a bright future at Handball", City of Preston Post Times. This one was quite obscure (link, pg. 64 in pdf).
   1. This source does mention "Christian Brother's College in Clifton Hill" as the place where Eddie practised. It does speculate that Christian Colleges is the primary venue.
   2. This source does not distinguish Australian handball to Gaelic, Welsh and American handball as claimed in this article.
   3. This source does not say that Australians make regular appearances at the World Junior and World Senior Titles.
3. "Handball has Romantic History", The Adelaide Mail.
   1. This source does not claim that "Australia handball ... has been played formally in Australia, since 1923."
4. "'Right Wall', Handball: Its Value as Exercise: Championship Games", The Sporting Globe.
   1. This source only indicates Handball has been played in Australia from at least 1923, rather than dated from 1923.
5. "Australian Handball". Australian Handball Council.
   1. This source just links to their website, rather than any particular article they have published. Hence, it is used several times in claims in this article. However, because of this, these claims appear unsourced.
   2. The Australian Handball Council appears defunct, making many of the claims in this article as of today incorrect.
6. "100 years of handball in South Australia." I couldn't get my hands on this one.
7. "The Strand" St. Bernard's College.
   1. This source does not mention "Christian Brothers' Colleges" counter to what was claimed.
   2. This source does not use the terminology 'blooded' counter to what was claimed.
8. St. Virgil's Annual, St. Virgil's College, (Hobart), Christmas 1922, p.7. I cannot find this source, although I find it strange that it would make such statements about Christian Brothers' Colleges.
9. "'Lynx', "Footballers' Pastime: History of Handball", The Herald.
   1. This source does not mention a "Bill Serong."
   2. It's unclear if it is referring to the Handball discussed in this post.
10. "Handball Experts: Many Footballers Like Game," The Herald.
    1. This source does not mention a "Bill Serong."
    2. Again, it's unclear if it is referring to the Handball discussed in this post.
11. "World War Two Nominal Roll: Surgeon Captain James Martin Flattery." Department of Veterans' Affairs.
    1. This source does not make any claims about handball or James' relationship with it.
12. "Hall of Fame for handball." Randwick City Library. Can't access the source.
13. "Interview with Paul Fallon, eleven times Australian handball champion". Neil Bennetts, Australia. Can't access this source, but seems reasonable.

Also, at the bottom of the page links the "World Handball Council" which also seems defunct. If not, this link should be updated.

Many of the sources in this page, do not speak of "Australian handball," and in fact several times mention it's the same sport played in other countries. From some research, I notice that "Wallball" seems to be a fairly common name.

Suggestions. Based on this, I'll make a few suggestions.

1. Remove all unfounded claims (this is most of the article).
2. Try to get access to some of the other sources I wasn't able to get access to.
3. Follow the earlier suggestions of a merger. The sources here do not appear to support Australian handball being different. If this article is still needed, I think "Handball in Australia" would make more sense since "Australian handball" is unfounded.
4. Use this page as a disambiguation between Handball (schoolyard game) and wallball/whatever you want to call it, or alternatively just redirect straight to Handball (schoolyard game) which actually seems to be Australian.

Vituluss (talk) 06:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)