Talk:Australian national football team

AFL

Hi, Aussie rules is the greatest sport in the world, but until at least some of the rest of the world realises that, it's pretty hard to claim that we have a team that represents Australia at Aussie rules! Until then, it's just fantasy football, IMHO, YMMV, DNCWA, etc etc. Regards, Ben Aveling 10:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Point. Poor use of the word "representative", but it is a national team. It's just that there's no-one out there for them to play... ～J.K. 01:56, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Surprised the soccer "mafia" :p have let this stand. I've changed the use of the generic word football to the more specific soccer on a few pages - but it's usually been reverted. --Paul 09:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

This page is just taking the p*ss, especially the desperate claim that Aussie Rules has a national football team. This is a sad pathetic abuse of wikipedia simply to stop real football having its own page. soccer "mafia" indeed. --202.47.49.66 17:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Football in Australia

There are many codes: Rugby, League, AFL, and Soccer.

The rights towards the one being called football goes: AFL League Union Soccer

Stop changing the page, it should remain as a disamb. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Krabby me (talk • contribs) 13:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

For the page Football in Australia, you may have a point - and that page is indeed a disambig page. However, this is a page about the "Australian national football TEAM". Only Rugby union and soccer have national teams which actually compete in any major international competition, and people call rugby "rugby" in this case. -- Chuq 05:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The league team do compete in a major trophy, the Tri-Nations.GordyB

And beacause both rugby and soccer have national FOOTBALL teams then their should be a disamb page. The AFL is put on their as well just in case someone is looking for that. It will help more people if its a diamb page, as there will be a lot of new users who wont realise that clicking on a certain link will take them to other football codes. --Krabby me 10:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

That is why there is a notice at the top of Australia national football (soccer) team pointing to the others - which either don't play internationally, or are not commonly known as the Australian national football team. -- Chuq 13:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority of people searching for the Australian national football team will not be searching for the national soccer team. Most people will be australians, and as a result of this we need to ensure that wikipedia is easy to navigate for those people new to wiki. There is less confusion when there is a disamb page meaning that everyone only has one click to get to the page they want. If you redirect to soccer team then people looking for other australian national football teams will first have to look for the link, and then click twice to get to their page. Please do not change it back!--144.138.240.76 06:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority of people searching for the Australian national football team will not be searching for the national soccer team. Then what team will they be looking for? Read my bit above about the team. If you are talking about Football in Australia then yes, that should be a disambig page, and it is. This is one about the TEAM. Australian rules football doesn't have a national team (not one that actually plays), the rugby codes are referred to as rugby when talking about international competitions (for example Rugby World Cup, Rugby League World Cup, Category:International rugby league teams, Category:National rugby union teams). The Socceroos are called the national football team by both local fans of the sport as well as people from overseas (Wikipedia is an international project) wanting to find out about our football team. Take a look at Category:Asian national football teams -- Chuq 08:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

There may be a majority of people searching for the Australian football team thinking of soccer but it would not be a vast majority. I would have to say that the ratio of people searching for sports under this name goes

soccer :	AFL :	league :	union :	others
35	20	20	20	5

This would mean that a diambiguation page is needed, as 65% of people would not be searching for soccer. The football in australia page shows that there are more then one type of football code. By redirecting straight to soccer is basically saying that there is only one code in australia with a national team which is completely untrue.

People is places where rugby is by far the dominant sport will call rugby, football most of the time. As for AFL, some people will probably hear of a national team picked by selectors and not know the name and hence search for australian national football team.

Yes the socceroos are called the national football team by people overseas and abroad, however there are also many that call it the national soccer team. There would probably be people from rugby areas overseas searching for the australian football team. By being an international project we need to consider other peoples views and how they think. Not all people would think of looking at the top of the page for a link to the other codes. It is simply much easier and more ergonomic for this page to be a disambiguation page. unsigned comment by User:GordyB 14Feb07

Chuq, you write "Only Rugby union and soccer have national teams which actually compete in any major international competition, and people call rugby 'rugby' in this case." ... and people also call soccer "soccer" in this case especially in Australia. Not only do the majority of Australians call soccer "soccer" but so do the majority of native English speakers. So take your pick.

Yes, Wikipedia is an international project so let's cater to the international audience. Let's cater to the British for whom football means soccer, let's cater to the Irish for whom football means soccer or Gaelic football, let's cater to the North Americans for whom football means American or Canadian football, let's cater to the Kiwis for whom football usually means union ... Am I forgetting anyone? ... Oh, yes, let's cater to Australians for whom football usually means union, league or rules.

I'm tempted to redirect Australian national football team to Australian national football team (disambiguation) but I expect I'd only be reverted and called a vandal in the process. However, I believe that Australian national football team should not simply be a redirect to the disambiguation page but it should be the disambiguation page with the redirect going the other way. Either way, though, Australian national football team should not be a redirect to the national soccer team page.

I say this not as a fan of any particular flavour of football but as an Australian who believes he has some sense of normal usage of vocabulary in English and in Australian English in particular.

Jimp 08:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to call you a vandal - you are discussing the topic first , which vandals tend not to do. I'll just show you to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Football in Australia), as the points you raise have been refuted there - if there is anything specific that isn't covered, please comment there. -- Chuq 09:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I am being unfair: there was a fair amount of flinging of the v-word in the other direction. Thank you for pointing me to the more full discussion over on the talk page you mention. With respect, however, why would I comment there when I propose that this page be changed? Why ... particularly considering that that page "is currently inactive and is kept primarily for historical interest." and was supposed to deal with "a proposed guideline for use of the word 'football' in articles." (a somewhat different issue). You suggest that the points I raise have been refuted ... if that's your take on it, great. They've certainly been discussed. You do point us to a number of news sites which use football to mean soccer but how representative are these of general usage by average Australians?

I must say that I did like this bit: "We need to decide on a convention that will keep australian, rugby and association football people happy when they do a search. A lot of soccer people around the world know that their 'football' is soccer." "... the proposed policy allows for that (articles with 'football' in the topic (eg. Football in Australia) will be a disambiguation page, for example)." So, allow it here: keep the rugby people happy when they search for "Australian national football team" keep the rules people happy too (even though they only find teams of little significance). Jimp 16:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha ha. I keep coming across these hilarious "what does football mean in Australia" discussions. I just hope they are obscure enough that nobody from outside the country actually reads them. Howard is embarrassing enough without a bunch of chumps arguing about a word. I should say right from the outset I am a rugby union fan. In terms of this debate, soccer fans you are right, this should be your page - nobody would enter Australian national football team and be looking for anything else. But why try arguing with the AFL loonies? Just drop it, people will get to your boys (Australia's most famous footballers of any code) eventually. AFL chumps - get a grip of yourselves!! Your world is not going to come to an end if someone who is looking for a soccer team types in a word that you also like to use for your sport. It's time to grow up. Your sport is doing just fine and doesn't need your desperately defensive posturing. As for rugby union, it's going down the pan - but that's nothing to do with whether people call it football or not (very very very few do). Is there a fourth code? Can't quite remember... only kidding leaguies. You are grown up enough to let the soccer boys claim the word in this context, I'm sure. Mralph72 10:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey lads, this is gold. If I search on "Australian Football Team" I go to a page that covers the (real or imaginary) team in each of four codes of football, although I suspect there is probably a national gridiron team somewhere that gets omitted - unfairly in my book. But if I search on "Australian NATIONAL Football Team" I go straight to the Socceroos. Embarrassing stuff. Sort it out, Aussie Football Wikipedians!!!Mralph72 10:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

But wait, there's more!!! If I look at the discussion on "Australian Football Team" (the one that covers all and sundry), and then click on the article tab, wait for it... I go to a page on the Socceroos. Quite, quite brilliant. Well done!! Mralph72 10:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello my fine friends, I'm back. Here's a thing: If I search on "US Football Team", it goes straight to the article on the US soccer team. Yes, it's true!! And how many of our American cousins do you think have complained about this slur on the fine sport of American Football (not to mention rugby, league, five-a-side soccer, etc)? How many, hmmm? None. Not one. Has the sport of American Football fallen into chaos? No. Are American rugby fans scratching their heads wondering why it doesn't link to THEIR team? Apparently not. How many soccer fans are demanding it be called football or association football or football (soccer), etc, etc? Again, not one. You see, a state of adulthood IS attainable chaps.Mralph72 07:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Some of us hear what you are saying :) But if football people make the changes that the world would expect, certain Aussie Rules editors jump up and down about it. We should just move Australia national football team from Australia national football (soccer) team and be done with it, but we all know what will happen. Still things are changing. Rugby League writters in the SMH and now calling the sport football, and even the Melbourne press have woken up to the fact that football is now played in Australia 10-11 months of the year.Tancred 10:36, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That would reflect the views of a tiny minority in Australia. Football is still used for all the codes in the SMH, the use of the direct term "football" for soccer, and "Australian Football" for Aussie Rules. This is certainly not common usage in Sydney. The whole tone of that comment suggests that a view is being put forward rather than observing simple facts. When a prominent footballer like Willy Mason can talk about wanting to captain the Australian football team, than the term is obviously not clear cut. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.132.221.157 (talk) 03:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

Then again I read this comment and wonder who Willy Mason is.Tancred 11:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

You are the only one in New South Wales or Queensland. You are abusing wikipedia with a comment lik that because it is obviously false. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.132.217.29 (talk) 11:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

There is no such sport as AFL. Its Australian rules football, stupid

More and more

It is quite clear that by the different people contributing to these debates, that there are many people out there getting confused when searching for Australian National football team. These discussions keep coming back, and only an idiot would think a diambiguation page is not needed. A disambiguation page would clear up all of these issues. 59.101.104.66 12:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

A diambiguation page page is not needed at all. Australia has one national football team, a Rugby team, a League team and an "all Australian" team that does not even play games. I would fully support just moving the national football (soccer) team to this page with a link to a diambiguation page at the top.Tancred 12:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I find it amusing that User:59.101.104.66 has made two edits, the one above, and the reversion of my edit on the article page, with the edit summary "rv - user chuq is totally disregarding the discussion (new user?)". If this anon checked my user page he/she would see that I have been here for over 3 years and am an administrator with 13500+ edits. Note that I am NOT saying that this gives me more authority or anything along those lines. I'm saying that this anonymous user either is for some unknown reason making my edits look like that are in bad faith or are against previous discussion/guidelines - as to whether this in intentional or not, I don't know. The anon editor is obviously unfamiliar with the work I went to in setting up Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Football in Australia) and its associated talk page in order to gain consensus as to names of these types of articles. -- Chuq (talk) 13:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for setting up that page chuq. I used those links to read all the discussions before changing to a diambiguation page. It seems to me that there is quite a lot of people getting confused when they search for "Australian national football team". Rather than being sent to the wallabies, or to the "all-australian" page etc. they are sent to the soccer national team page, which is totally in the wrong direction. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such must show links to all the various football codes including rugby, league and aussie rules. More people are getting confused by this redirect than are being helped by linking it to the socceroos. As to the consensus, it seems to me from reading that a lot of soccer people do not wish to even consider other sports, and simply consider their chosen sport superior, and are simply unwilling for a compromise. 59.101.104.66 03:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It is disgusting what they will do. The user:Tancred here has wished for my death, and they team up in conspiracy to have you banned. Noone calls the socceroos the national football team, but they, because of some type of unconditional hate, keep changing it. 144.132.216.253 05:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

So which banned user are you again? After all, there is no history of such comments from Tancred to 144.132.216.253. Perhaps if you could use logic and reasoning in your arguments, instead of slandering other users. -- Chuq (talk) 06:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

144.132 makes a valid point of 'no--one' calling the socceroos the national football team. Not everyone knows that the AFLs team of the year is called "All-Australians" and would hence search for australian national football team. The personal attacks are going a bit too far, but i do believe that some mods do abuse their power sub-conciously. 61.69.171.27 11:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, Wikipedia doesn't have moderators. Secondly, anyone can revert a page. Therefore I can only assume that the comment about "mods abusing their power" is just throwing around random accusations without any sort of knowledge about Wikipedia, its processes, and conventions. -- Chuq (talk) 00:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It's been debated before and it's fine the way it is. I also find it very interesting that certain people, who refuse to use a username are focusing their wikipedia "efforts" on moving this page, and only this page. Tancred 12:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Well for the record, I think that all pages should be disambiguations. 144.132.216.253 17:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, obviously no sort of knowledge about Wikipedia, its processes, and conventions. Honestly, all the information is available for anyone to read. It isn't limited to certain people. Please go and read Wikipedia:Disambiguation. -- Chuq (talk) 00:25, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

First line comrade, "Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic." For the record, I was wrongfully banned and they overturned. Those comments were completely unscrupulous Chuq, and from my first edit, I have been harassed by that user. 144.132.216.253 23:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't hate: Disambiguate!

I know it's getting old. But I think Australian national football team should go to the disambiguation page (otherwise, what's the point in having it?). No information will be lost. People are still going to be able to read about whatever they want to read about. The United States and New Zealand national sides are called soccer teams. Australians don't use the term soccer any less than Americans and Kiwis do. In Australian schools it's soccer, on the (non SBS) news it's soccer. But I digress. This discussion isn't meant to be about this article's title. People who reach a disambiguation page might be interested to see that there's more than one "Australian national football team". If football takes us to a page explaining all the different codes, why does Australian national football team not do the same? Australia is the ultimate example of a country with more than one kind of 'football' (and hence, more than one kind of national football team), so as far as our national teams on wikipedia are concerned, we should follow the same spirit in which the football article was created. My two cents.--Jeff79 20:14, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

See/add to this discussion here.