Talk:Australian rules football in Queensland

earlier comments

To Dan, who created this article from info in the article on AFL Queensland: I note you have removed some information regarding some of the reasons why the game fell away in popularity in the late 1800s. I think the information is quite valid and is of interest to readers. I hope you'll consider reinstating it - I will leave it up to you as to what you decide to do, thanks.

If you don't have the information available, the paragraph in question read:

However, a series of events would cause a shift in popularity from the national game to rugby. One significant factor was the 1887 decision of Brisbane Grammar School to play rugby in lieu of Australian rules. Then, in 1890, the powerful touring South Melbourne team secured some big wins over the local boys. To further enhance rugby's relative standing, the Queensland rugby team met with considerable success against New South Wales in the 1890s. The combined effect of these events was that the national game became dormant by the mid-1890s.--GregP 07:23, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

For the moment I have taken this information off as I could not find any specific sources to back it up. If you have some I would be happy to reinclude it, but at the moment it appears nothing more than unpublished speculation.--dan, dan and dan 06:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

No problem - most of the information is from the 'Queensland Australian National Football League Official Souvenir Programme of Collingwood v South Melbourne', dated Saturday 27th July 1935. The article in question is headed 'History of the Australian Game'. For your interest, it reads in part 'On 21st June, 1890, South Melbourne paid a visit to Brisbane and played Queensland on Albion Park. The visiting players were so superior that they made the local talent look like novices'. The article continues 'The match developed into a farce. This was keenly felt by many Brisbane players, and proved a set-back to the Australian game in Queensland that has not yet been recovered. When Queensland defeated a New South Wales Rugby Union team shortly afterwards many old Rugbyites receded from the Australian ranks and formed clubs of their own. Victoria made no effort to rectify the blunder, while on the other hand New South Wales fostered the Rugby Union game in Queensland, where recruits were always obtained among immigrants.'

A check of the Brisbane Courier of 1890 confirmed the results of the South Brisbane games (in an era when behinds were recorded but did not count towards the team total):

1. On Saturday 21st June South Melbourne 13-12 defeated Brisbane 2-3 at the Breakfast Creek Sports Ground (now known as Albion Park).

2. On Monday 23rd June South Melbourne 10-17 defeated Ipswich 5-5 at Town Reserve, Ipswich.

3. On Tuesday 24th June South Melbourne 6-17 d Queensland 1-0 at the Breakfast Creek Sports Ground.

The reference to Brisbane Grammar School is from 'Brisbane in the 1890s' by Ronald Lawson, University of Queensland Press, 1973, page 203.

If this info is sufficient for your requirements, I'd be very grateful if you could reinclude the section in question. Thanks.--GregP 13:55, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I will write this up in proper reference format, although it may have to wait until after Boxing Day. ;) --dan, dan and dan 21:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

AFL in Cairns

This article focuses primarilly on AFL in Brisbane. I wonder whether perhaps it should be renamed AFL in Brisbane. I'm led to believe that Cairns is an AFL enclave where AFL is more popular than league or union, yet the article doesn't mention this at all. In fact there have been a few first grade AFL games played at Barlow Park in Cairns in the last few years. The article could talk about the history of how that came to be the case and describe the local competition etc. Otherwise I suggest renaming it to AFL in B'bane -- Adz 05:43, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As someone who lives in FNQ (in Atherton to be precise) I can confirm that AFL is popular in Cairns, but not yet more popular than AFL. Nonetheless, it would be great to get some info on the sport outside on Brisbane on here. Do you have anything that we could use?--dan, dan and dan 06:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Not at the moment, but I'm heading up that way for christmas so I'll see if I can dig anything up. -- Adz 06:42, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Cheers. :-) --dan, dan and dan 06:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Sources

To quote from Wikipedia:Citing sources:

Remember though: the most important thing is to enter comprehensive reference information — that is, enough information so that a reader can find the original source with relative ease.

Quoting whole decades (up to forty or so years) worth of newspapers as a source does not fulfil this requirement, thus defeating the whole purpose of referencing. I will remove these references until more specific ones are given.--dan, dan and dan 06:46, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Intro

I've reworded the intro a bit to reflect the fact that the game is a major sport in the southern states but that it has lacked popularity in Queensland. This wasn't clear in the intro and would not have been apparent to anybody who was not from Australia. It may have appeared that AFL in Queensland was a fledgling sprt which has finally begun to gain popularity after many years. I felt it was important to make this clear in the introduction. I'm sure it can be improved even further so feel free to play with it. I've inserted the old version below. -- Adz|talk 08:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Australian Rules football is a rapidly growing team and popular spectator sport played in the Australian state of Queensland.

<contents table here>

The sport has a long history in the state but currently its popularity lags behind rugby league. However, it is growing in popularity in South East Queensland, partly due to the success of the Brisbane Lions.

I've rewritten it again in line with the Manual of Style, in particular the ones relating to placing the name of the article in bold, preferably in the first sentence of the par, and not putting links in the name of the article. --The Brain of Morbius 02:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Merge suggestion

I am hoping this is the best page to raise this concept. Following on from Hervey Bay Bombers AFC AFD, I have looked at all the articles which are listed on this article as "Regional Leagues". In their current state, none of the articles meet either WP:N or WP:CORP. I would like to suggest these articles be merged to Regional Australian rules football leagues in Queensland, with the existing articles becoming redirects. Each league would have a section in the new article and as sources and content are added then the league could easily be split back out over the redirect.

Thoughts? 23:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

PS I am working up a draft here. Garrie 23:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I have added a merge template to each of the articles directing discussion here. I have created a redirect in article space pointing to the above draft in user space.Garrie 00:11, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the merge. I would prefer Australian rules football leagues in regional Queensland myself. Remy B 04:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

My preferred option is to keep the articles as stand alone articles and tag them all for cleanup and referencing. I am of the opinion that sufficient source material exists for most of these articles to be brought up to standard. Being realistic, I don't have the inclination to clean them up any time soon and I don't expect anyone else to do so in the immediate future. This leaves a series of unsatisfactory articles that need to be dealt with. The proposed merge, at least, keeps all the relevant information we have at present and produces a decent article. Therefore, I am in broad agreement with the proposal. I think there is a good possibility in the future that the individual articles could be re-split from this merged article and this merger should not prejudice any future split. I think the name provided by Remy B is very good and would recommend using it. -- Mattinbgn/ ^talk 08:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that the leagues seem notable. As do quite a few of the redlinked ones on {{Aussie Rules in Queensland}} which happen to be women's leagues. Sourced material which shows compliance with WP:N and WP:CORP is easier to achieve with a top-down approach rather than starting at the individual club/league level.Garrie 04:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way. I created the draft entirely from material already on Wikipedia. Anyone care to add some suitable (secondary?) references to it? Maybe local press coverage from start of the season supporting that the leagues exist in the stated areas and include the listed teams (or conversely, ladders from the end of last season which would indicate much the same thing).Garrie 04:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Leave AFL Cairns out of this merge. It is the most notable of all of the regional leagues and warrants its own article. --Rulesfan 02:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think all the leagues are notable (although I agree AFL Cairns is the strongest regional league), the question is more about the current state of the articles. AFL Cairns does not, to my eyes, seem in much better shape that the others, although I note you are working on it at present. If the article is substantially improved I am all for keeping it as a stand alone article. -- Mattinbgn/ ^talk 03:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't dispute the importance nor notability of any of the regional comps. What concerns me is the current state of the articles, not their potential state. Nothing has been said here to dissuade me from merging these articles so I will go ahead and merge them now. Feel free to split back any of the individual leagues - but if your newly created article doesn't include multiple independent sources then I will revert it to a redirect.Garrie 22:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you'd like to clarify what it is about the current state to which you object. To be honest, it would be nice if you had actually included the additional information that was put in there before you went ahead and deleted it. --Rulesfan 07:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Not wanting to speak for Garrie, but my objection to the former state of the AFL Cairns article is that is was not much more than a list of clubs and a mention of the 2004 grand final. The other claims in the article are entirely unsourced. The information that currently exists can be and is easily included in the merged article. Secondly, the articles have not been deleted, they have been merged and redirected and the previous information can be seen in the article history; such as here - [1]. It also appears to me as if all the previous content is in the merged article anyway. (strike out irrelevant comments) Lastly, I again say that I would support any decent well referenced article about any of these leagues being split from the merged article in the future as I believe the leagues are notable enough for articles in their own right. -- Mattinbgn/ ^talk 09:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but in this version - the last signed-in edit before I turned it into a redirect - I didn't notice the referenced material, as no References section was included and the tags (specifically for the article being unreferenced) were still included. I did see Mattinbg's comment above and I scanned the article (but didn't review the history) before moving the page (which I created in 19 July) from my draft into main space.

All I've done at AFL Cairns (and the other articles) is put a redirect at the top of the article and hide the text with <!-- --> tags. It would be quite simple for someone who feels strongly to restore it even without trolling through historical versions.Garrie 21:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent History

I'm fairly certain the statistics regarding the decline in attendance and memberships in 2006 are accurate, although unreferenced, however to term the decline substantial seems perhaps a little dramatic? Any thoughts on this?

Also in this section it states that ACGS and BBC did not contest the Jason Dunstall Cup. I know as a fact that this is incorrect, both schools participated in the competition then and still do. It then goes on to state that 'most other major private shools ceased played the sport at the top level'. This is also incorrect, the schools previously mentioned in the article still play the sport at the top level. In 2006 schools were actually entering the competition, not leaving it (Brisbane Grammar School entered the competition in 2006). This took the total of GPS schools playing Australian Rules to 7 out of 9(ACGS, BBC, BGS, BSHS, IGS, NC, TSS). None of the information currently in this section of the article is referenced (presumably because it is incorrect), so I would suggest someone fixes up this section, or deletes the inaccurate comments.

300 teams in 1883

The assertion that there were 300 teams in South-East Queensland in 1883 is, at best, dubious: contemporaneous newspaper records refer to Brisbane, Excelsiors, Wallaroos, Grammars and Athenians (Ipswich) and three of these teams report having no more than two teams each ('senior' and 'junior' 20s - see the Brisbane Courier of 5 May 1883: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/19790889) Perhaps the original source said 300 players? (more likely, with only a few known clubs each typically with two teams?)

Unless it can be substantiated, I propose to delete the reference to 300 teams Peter Eedy (talk) 01:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

I have now amended this item - note that the population of Brisbane in 1880 was around 30,000 (it did grow to around 100,000 by 1890) - 300 teams each with 20+ players would require around 8000 players - nearly half of the entire male population of Brisbane (including infants and the elderly). Peter Eedy (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

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