Talk:Autumn/Archive 1

Archive 1

..in North America

The article begins by saying that "Fall" is used in North America... I wasnt aware that the spanish speaking mexicans used that term. Perhaps a reprasing to "Fall is used in the US and Canada" or even "in english-speaking America". (unsigned, but by contribs) )

It doesn't say that the word Fall is the only word used on the entire continent, it says Fall is also used on the continent. You are reading something into it that it doesn't say, therefore your clarification is unnecessary. DreamGuy 14:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

== Changed 'leap years' to 'every 4 years' on the section about pres. elections /* Autumn in popular culture */ US Pres. elections are held every 4 years, not just on leap years. Read the article 'leap year' 66.81.154.186 01:38, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Precipitations gradually increasing?

"and precipitation gradually increases (in some parts of the world)."

Why even include this, in some areas Autumn marks a decrease in precipitation, in other a decrease and in others, there is little or no change in precipitation from Summer to Autumn. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.28.13.57 (talk) 03:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Still don't know where it comes from...

In looking for where the word "Autumn" comes from, I found (in this article), that it comes from Old French, or just regular French, autumne. Fine, but what does THAT mean? It doesn't say, it just says that that's the word it comes from. Does that mean "fall" also, as in falling leaves? Or does it mean something else? MJuice 21:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

It means "the season after summer and before winter". That's its name, it doesn't have any other prior known meaning. Martin 22:30, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

As usual, its not that easy: Origin of autumn - don't have the time right now, but if somebody wants to use the ref to expand the article... Ingolfson (talk) 05:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Time assessment rating comment

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Fall

Fall is a very busy season because animals have to gather food for the long winter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.43.33.215 (talk) 19:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

In places that dont have a sesonal dramatic change Still Fall?

From what I understand FALL refers to Falling Leaves leaves truning color then falling. Southern California is not noted for that! So ,wondering if Fall is just a term used in polaces as eastern United States to denote Color Of Laves on Trees then Falling leaves? Gracias! (SunsetPMStart of Autum Tu.Sept.22,2009 21stCent H.B. Socal Dr. Edson Andre' Johnson D.D.ULC) Andreasmoi (talk) 03:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it's common throughout the USA, but wouldn't be understood where I live (even though leaves have already been falling for several weeks). Northern England dialect has "back end" for the season of Autumn, but I'm not recommending inclusion of that term in the article. Dbfirs 09:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Australia

I think it is worth noting that officially the people of Australia consider seasons to begin on the first day of a particular calendar month and end on the last day of a particular calendar month. Thus:
Autumn begins on the first day of March and ends on the last day of May.
Winter begins on the first day of June and ends on the last day of August.
Spring begins on the first day of September and ends on the last day of November.
Summer begins on the first day of December and ends on the last day of February.

However, the vast diversity of the ecological zones of the Australian continent renders the rigid European seasonal calendar an imposed cultural concept rather than relevant to climactic conditions.

The seasonal cycles as named and described by the various (indigenous) Aboriginal peoples of Australia differ substantially from one another according to their local geographical and ecological environment and are intricately dependent on local environmental events and resources.

Refs: Museum Victoria - The Sun and the Seasons http://museumvictoria.com.au/discoverycentre/infosheets/planets/the-sun-and-the-seasons/

Australian Bureau of Meteorology - Indigenous Seasons http://www.bom.gov.au/iwk/climate_culture/Indig_seasons.shtml

--Ningyo Majo (talk) 02:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

also: Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Portal Earth's Seasons: Equinoxes, Solstices, Perihelion, and Aphelion, 2000-2020

http://www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/earth-seasons/?searchterm=seasons

--Ningyo Majo (talk) 04:08, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, but don't we already note that in the article? Would you like a mention of the Aboriginal cultural definition? Dbfirs 09:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

秋

The article speaks of the Chinese definition of "autumn" with the equinox marking the middle of this season. In comparison to the Western astromonical definition given in the article this "autumn" begins a month and a half early i.e. in the middle of summer. One has to wonder whether the two concepts are really synonomous at all when no less than half of the Chinese "autumn" is in the Western astromonical summer. Jɪmp 08:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, definitions in English with earlier start-times exist so I suppose this it works. Jɪmp 09:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The way of how the seasons are divided by Chinese is in a view of insolation. This is the REAL astronomical point of view. Autumnal equinox should be the MIDDLE of autumn, isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.42.208.182 (talk) 17:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Celtic definition of the seasons matches that of the Chinese. Where did the false "astronomical" dates originate? They are an illogical use of fixed astronomical points; they are not supported by any western meteorologists, and they are only approximately valid for regions with a continental climate causing a long temperature lag of about half a season. Dbfirs 10:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Why do you say "false" astronomical dates? The solstices and equinoxes are very well defined. To call the period between the September equinox and the December solstice "Autumn" is a pure matter of definition. I agree that it's irrelevant for describing weather, it's a pure astronomical term. I don't understand why meteorologists (and newspapers) always refer to it instead of the meteorological autumn. Did you put the "citation needed" mark for the solstices? I'd suggest to put in the same reference as for the dates in the solstice article.Pkoppenb (talk) 07:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I said "false" because, logically, from an astronomical point of view, the equinoxes and solstices define the mid-season. I have been unable to find out where the idea that they begin the season originated. Only in some areas does the temperature lag correspond approximately to the six to seven week difference. The autumn equinox is so called because it occurs in autumn, not because it necessarily begins autumn. Dbfirs 09:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

School terms in southern hemisphere

I think most southern hemisphere countries start school in late Jan/early Feb (i.e. summer), not March as it says in this article. That's certainly the way it is in Australia and New Zealand. See here: (NOTE: although the heading says school holidays, it actually gives the term dates (i.e. non-holiday dates).)

Yep. I also have noticed (as an Australian now in the US) a difference in the general use of the seasons to denote specific times of the year other than the weather. School holidays are called things like "Spring Break", "Summer Vacation" etc - movies are advertised as coming out "This Fall" or "This Summer" - I never really experienced this sort of thing back at home. It was always "School holidays" and movie release dates were usually given by month. I wonder why this should be the case. 70.189.213.149 08:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps because we have pretty decent weather year-round, evergreen trees, very little snow ... maybe ... Jɪmp 08:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm relatively sure that naming the school holidays like that is to move away from christian religious names for the holidays as america is such a 'melting pot'. When I heard this, it seemed reasonable at the time, but for some reason America seems to be ever more focussed on religion (well, only christianity) in things like politics; whereas previosuly it has been seen important to keep politics and religion very separate. The weather in different parts of USA can vary a lot because it's so big. up on the canadian border it does snow quite often, in florida it seems to never stop raining, in arizona there's desert. From what I can tell, california has pretty awesome weather all year round, which makes me very jealous as I live in England :( --KX36 (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the article does need adjusting for the southern hemisphere. Does anyone know when they start the school year in South America? Dbfirs 10:42, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Heavily nonNPOV article!

1. Subtropical regions also experience Autumn and the other seasons. So it is not correct to suggest that these are only 'Temperate' seasons.
2. Subtropical regions do NOT experience large differences in the length of the day between summer and winter.
3. On what authority can you suggest that every school in the northern hemisphere starts its school year in Autumn?
4. What is the relevance to the timetable of movie releases to Autumn? Perhaps this is the time of year that certain movies are released but that has nothing to do with the season of autumn.

I'm sure there's more. Enjoy your new tag. Jebus Kriste 20:19, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

The article uses sufficient qualifiers:

Autumn is often defined as the start of the school year in most countries, since they usually begin in early September or early March (depending on the latitude).

The temperate latitudes of the globe lie between the tropics and the polar circles. Thus the subtropical regions are in the temperate latitudes.

— Walloon 22:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

In my understanding, tropical regions have 2 seasons; wet and dry; not the 4 seasons; spring, summer, autumn and winter. Alsoo I can see why there might be a movies reference. That movie trailer/teaser voice guy virtually has "coming this fall" as a catchphrase.--KX36 (talk) 10:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Some places have 6 seasons!!!--Kurtle (talk) 22:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization

There seems to be an inconsistancy with the capitalization of this word. Even within the article, it's written both "Autumn" and "autumn". I'm not sure there's any hard and fast rule, but if there is or if there isn't, something should be said about this in the article, say in the Etymology section. This is somewhat subjective, when I see "Autumn", I think of the common woman's name more often than the season. But by contrast, "Fall" always means the season, while "fall" refers to a descent. Likewise "Spring" always means the season, whereas "spring" refers to a mechanical device or a mountain water source (or verbs associated with them). Summer and Winter or (summer and winter) pretty much always refer to the seasons, though they are occasionally verbed - implying that one spends the season in a given location - e.g. "I summer in Martha's Vinyard and winter down in Florida." But in these cases, the season is still strongly connected with the word, whereas there's some ambiguity with Autumn/Fall and Spring (or autumn/fall and spring). And nobody ever says "I autumn in <blank>" or "I spring in <blank>". (Sometimes "I fall in <blank>", but in this case they're not talking about the season...) Lurlock (talk) 14:11, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I was taught (long ago) that the seasons were proper nouns, and so should always be capitalised. You will see from my spelling that this was in the UK. This ruling seems to have changed in England during the last fifty years. What is taught in the USA? Dbfirs 09:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It's been so long since I was in grade school where this sort of thing would be taught that I don't remember what they told us. I just know that common usage seems to be somewhat inconsistant. (From what I've seen, both US and UK usages are inconsistant in this respect.) One thing that seems to make the difference is the level of significance you're giving the season - whether it's just an incidental period of time or you're referring to the season proper, e.g.: "I went to Paris last spring." vs. "Paris is lovely in the Spring." In the first example, "Paris" is given more emphasis in the sentence, whereas in the second, the emphasis is on "Spring". (Even though "Spring" is not the grammatical subject in either case, so it does seem to be rather subjective.) It might be a case of generalization, like "sun" vs. "the Sun", or "a god" vs. "God". When referring to something specifically, you capitalize, but when it's general, you don't have to. (Except that in the Paris case I quoted above, it's actually the reverse; the first says that I went to Paris last spring, not the spring before that or any other spring. Whereas the other sentence states that Paris is lovely EVERY Spring. This is just too confusing...) Lurlock (talk) 12:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's supposed to be capitalised...

"The seasons do not need a capital letter and there is ample support for this usage in the following books:

Concise Oxford English Dictionary (2004),

Oxford Dictionary for Writers & Editors (2000),

Oxford Guide to Style (2002).

The last of these says 'capital initial for seasons only when personified', which really amounts to 'only in poetry'.

It is all part of the trend to plainer English, which includes fewer capital initials." [1] --Kurtle (talk) 23:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Uncategorized

(heading added in retrospect, feel free to add proper headings) --Tunheim 10:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

When did the use of "fall" become outdated? It's still very much in use in Canada, which for the most part follows British English. 23skidoo 06:05, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nobody uses it in the UK, I'm not sure if they ever did. violet/riga (t) 09:55, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, Canadian vocabulary is much (much, much) closer to American English than Brit English: "apartment", "elevator", "diaper", "fall", etc. etc. It's only closer to British English in the spelling of certain words ("colour", "centre", and so forth)

I started to write fairly long reply here a couple of weeks ago where I traced the claim through H.L. Mencken to a nineteenth century original which he cited. Then the system barfed so I lost it.

Oh here it is:

From H.L. Mencken (1880–1956). The American Language. 1921.

Chapter 5. Archaic English Words

• here

A very large number of words and phrases, many of them now exclusively American, are similar survivals from the English of the seventeenth century, long since obsolete or merely provincial in England. Among nouns Thornton notes fox-fire, flap-jack, jeans, molasses, beef (to designate the live animal), chinch, cordwood, home-spun, ice-cream, julep and swingle-tree; Halliwell¹ adds andiron, bay-window, cesspool, clodhopper, cross-purposes, greenhorn, loop-hole, ragamuffin and trash; and other authorities cite stock (for cattle), fall (for autumn), offal, din, underpinning and adze. Bub, used in addressing a boy, is very old English, but survives only in American. Flapjack goes back to Piers Plowman, but has been obsolete in England for two centuries. Muss, in the sense of a row, is also obsolete over there, but it is to be found in “Anthony and Cleopatra.” Char, as a noun, disappeared from English a long time ago, save in the compound, charwoman, but it survives in America as chore. Among the verbs similarly preserved are to whittle, to wilt and to approbate. To guess, in the American sense of to suppose, is to be found in “Henry VI”:

¹ J. O. Halliwell (Phillips): A Dictionary of Archaisms and Provincialisms, Containing Words now Obsolete in England All of Which are Familiar and in Common Use in America, 2nd ed.; London, 1850. See also Gilbert M. Tucker’s American English; New York, 1921, p. 39 ff.

(emphasis is mine)

Hmmm, several of these words should today be well-known in BE, due to the impact of American culture (Ice Cream, Jeans, Loophole, Trash at least...)

... and some, such as stock for cattle, never fell out of use in many parts of the UK. Dbfirs 13:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

So there you are! --Tony Sidaway|Talk 16:34, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nor is it used in Australia. It must have fallen out of use before conolisation. - Jim 18Mar05

I've had to delete the wikimedia commons link due to a)my poor knowledge of HTML and b)the pic seasons template. Could one of you add it in.

Using Autumn/Fall in articles...

Should Autumn be used in articles over Fall due to the latter only really being used in North American English? --Kurtle (talk) 23:11, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Depends on where the article is based. See WP:ENGVAR, also the warning template Template:Uw-lang sums up the situation very nicely.  Ronhjones  ^(Talk) 23:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Seems a bit stupid. The "international" thing doesn't really make much though. What exactly is a version of English for starters? If I started an article in a certain dialect; everyone would have to bend to the every whim of it?

When it comes to films & games, we use the US/English English depending on origin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurtle (talk • contribs) 13:41, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Autumn folige

WHY ARE COLORED AUTUMN FOLIAGE STRONGER IN EASTERN NORTH AMERICA? why are colored autumn foliage stronger in Eastern North America than on other places? Or has it just grown to a popular thing to watch, unlike here in Europe? The text about that is very unclear.

Well, in theory it could be that the East US simply has some set of commbination (weather, type of trees) which make it more pronounced. But I think its likely just a little better-known than other parts of the world.MadMaxDog 04:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

We have similar colours in my part of (old) England, but not such vast areas of trees, and the frequent wind and rain usually cause leaf-fall long before the full colours have developed. Dbfirs 10:03, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The colours of autumn foliage is strongest in regions with a rapid change of temperature during autumn, usually related to a large temperature difference between summer and winter. This happens in regions that have a continental climate, mostly on the East side of continents in the Northern hemisphere. Pkoppenb (talk) 07:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I heard that many deciduous maples and oaks in North America have a virus in their leaves, which is not shared by deciduous trees elsewhere in the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.112.29.49 (talk) 06:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Table

I have removed this vandalised table here because it is controversial (and was actually false for the southern hemisphere). I suggest that we explain in words the various possible dates rather than impose an "official version" that has no validity outside certain cultures. Dbfirs 06:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

The table (latest vandalised form) though it wasn't deliberate vandalism, just an attempt to correct a perceived error.

	Meteorological	Offset Astronomical
Northern Hemisphere	1 September – 30 November	(22–23 August) – (21–22 November)
Southern Hemisphere	1 March – 31 May	(18–19 February) – (20–21 May)

The reference, though headed "The seasons", actually makes no claim to support the view pushed in the table (whatever dates used). It is merely a list of solstices and equinoxes with no claim that they start the seasons. Dbfirs 06:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be nice to have an actual table with different dates of autumn in different cultures. Right now it seems like they are kind of randomly dispersed throughout the article.--UhOhFeeling (talk) 15:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the dates are rather arbitrarily distributed through the article, but putting them in a table would imply a precision and definiteness that just doesn't exist in most regions. Dbfirs 17:07, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm . . . Are there some majority views out there?--UhOhFeeling (talk) 03:23, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, they are stated in the text, but everyone thinks that their own view is the only one possible. (I'm exaggerating there, but only slightly!) Dbfirs 06:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Could we have a table including all significant views? Maybe something including . . . Name - Applicable Region - Dates . . . or something like that maybe?--UhOhFeeling (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Very bad images

A certain user has recently inserted two (of the three) images in the main body of the article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vineyard_in_Napa_Valley.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mallard_Lake_in_Golden_Gate_Park.jpg

Maybe it is just me, but I think that both are very poor images that are unrealistic and hardly suitable for the article. There are so many quality images of fall foliage out there, there must be a legion of more appropriate ones available on wikimedia.org. This is not someone's personal Panoramio site. The images should be replaced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.242.118.143 (talk) 03:38, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the list of files here might be better choices: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=fall%20foliage&fulltext=Search&profile=images&redirs=0 or http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=autumn%20foliage&fulltext=Search&profile=images&redirs=0 - M0rphzone (talk) 06:35, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Southern Hemisphere

I think the difference between the N. & S. hemispheres should be made clearer and should be near the beginning of the article.211.225.33.104 (talk) 00:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

"Fall"

The usage and primary topic of Fall is under discussion, see talk:Fall (disambiguation) -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 04:03, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

WHY AUTUMN IS CALLED FALL

″Autumn is usually defined in the Northern Hemisphere as the period between the autumnal equinox (day and night equal in length), September 22 or 23, and the winter solstice (year’s shortest day), December 21 or 22; and in the Southern Hemisphere as the period between March 20 or 21 and June 21 or 22. The autumn temperature transition between summer heat and winter cold occurs only in middle and high latitudes; in equatorial regions, temperatures generally vary little during the year. In the polar regions autumn is very short.″ For physical reasons Autumn is called Fall because of the leaves falling off of the trees. C. A. Levingston 16:47, 27 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caleving (talk • contribs)

I don't know why Britannica makes such a sweeping statement because conventions about the start of the season vary considerably, as stated in our article. Someone ought to tell them that they are very wrong about the southern hemisphere, as indicated by the first reference above. Leaves have been falling here in northern England for weeks. Dbfirs 17:50, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Date?

Surprised there's no mention of the date. I always thought the seasons changed on the 21st, but apparently the 23rd is the first day of fall this year? Or at least that's what my desk calendar is telling me. Anyone else have any suggestions? Lime in the Coconut 19:58, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the second paragraph states that, in some regions, the autumnal equinox is regarded as the start of "fall". This view is especially common in the USA where there is a longer temperature lag and a preference for a fixed date. Where I live in the UK, it has felt like autumn for several weeks (much lower temperatures and leaves falling), and we usually consider September 1st to be the start of autumn. Other regions have different dates. Dbfirs 21:18, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

If you want to use the equinox date, you need to understand that the equinox can vary by a day or two, and it might be the 21st one year and the 23rd another year. It isn't exactly the same date every year.

Agreed. Dbfirs 17:58, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Polar Easterlies

What effect does the polar easterlies have in the change from summer to fall? See atmospheric circulation. This is a work in progress any input would be appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caleving (talk • contribs) 19:42, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Section on tourism

Under the section subitled "Tourism", only the last sentence actually uses the word "tourism". I am wondering whether this section could be re-named.Vorbee (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Autumn for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Autumn is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Autumn until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:52, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

File:Dülmen, Wildpark -- 2014 -- 3808 color balanced.jpg scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Dülmen, Wildpark -- 2014 -- 3808 color balanced.jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for September 22, 2020. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2020-09-22. Any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be made before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:36, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Autumn is one of the four temperate seasons, marking the transition from summer to winter. In North America, where it is known as fall, the season traditionally starts on the September equinox (21 to 24 September) and ends on the winter solstice (21 or 22 December). Meteorologists in the Northern Hemisphere use a definition based on Gregorian calendar months, with autumn being September, October, and November. In Southern Hemisphere countries such as Australia and New Zealand, which also base their seasonal calendars meteorologically rather than astronomically, autumn officially begins on 1 March and ends on 31 May.

This photograph shows a typical autumnal scene in Dülmen, Germany, with the shedding of yellow, orange and red leaves by deciduous trees in temperate climates. The September equinox falls at 13:31 UTC on 22 September in 2020.

Photograph credit: Dietmar Rabich; retouched by Eric Gaba

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Problematic sentence in Lead (3rd para)

"Popular culture in North America associates Labor Day...."

I think that should say USA rather than North America. As I understand it, Labor Day is the relevant holiday in the USA, not in Mexico, Canada, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. HiLo48 (talk) 05:06, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the link to Labor Day applies only to the USA so I've made that change, though Labour Day in Canada is also the first Monday in September, so should we include Canada? Dbfirs 06:47, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, but you could open a small can of spelling worms by going there. HiLo48 (talk) 07:35, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed! I'm not convinced that it is common in Canada to regard Labour Day as the start of autumn, so I'll leave it to the Canadians to open that can! Dbfirs 07:46, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Also in this paragraph, the use of "traditionally" in the first sentence contradicts the previous paragraph which states that in the English-speaking world, which includes much of North America, the traditional definitions of fall/autumn are based on the months of the Celtic and Gregorian calendars. Is there a citation of when the equinox/solstice definition now commonly found in media and educational sources in the United States first began to appear? Does Canada also use this definition? What about Jamaica, Trinidad, Belize, Bahamas, Antigua, and British overseas territories? 149.101.1.115 (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Seasons

What are some of Autumn's activities please 🙏 help CTDMK (talk) 16:07, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

CTDMK Hello. Are you proposing an addition to this article? 331dot (talk) 16:40, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Autumn

What happens in this season 169.0.158.43 (talk) 12:41, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Please read this article for information. This page is for discussing changes to the article. 331dot (talk) 12:46, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

"Traditionally"

This article says two things regarding high-latitude English-speaking countries: (1) that traditionally, autumn began at Lammas and finished at Halloween; and (2) that traditionally, autumn lasts from the autumn equinox until the winter solstice.

As written, this appears contradictory and could do with better explanation. Note: I came here seeking to understand how and when the modern systems came about. I've always been confused as to why midsummer and midwinter are nowhere near "mid" the modern seasons. Fuzzypeg★ 13:34, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Why call it 'Fall' anyway?

US citizens inherited their own version of 18th century English, so why suddenly stop talking about Autumn and make it Fall instead? I checked the Oxford English Dictionary and it is not an old usage, as some 'Americanisms' are.

Also what do Canadians say?

--GwydionM 20:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

From what I've seen, Americans use both "Fall" and "Autumn" interchangeably. I believe the same goes for Canadians. - 68.33.120.32 03:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Really? I'm American and I hardly ever hear people refer to fall as "autumn". --Tocino 19:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

So am I. I would say that "fall" is more common, but both words are used. (What about the song "Autumn in New York"?) Kostaki mou (talk) 20:36, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Come on, no one calls them "freedom fries". - 68.33.120.32 03:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Here in Toronto, they're used interchangeably but "fall" is much more common in everyday conversation - mainly because it has one syllable instead of two, I think. Esn 06:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

About the same here in Vancouver. I'll add that the definite article often fronts the word "fall", and is almost obligatory before prepositions:

"Raking leaves can be an ordeal for some in the fall..." --The Weather Network .com/ca...

Clause-initial, article would be absent, likewise where listed with the other seasons:

Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter JohndanR (talk) 15:03, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

I think the 'freedom fries' jibe is utterly uncalled for, and simply insulting. I do wish that people would stop this juvenile abuse of US contributors (perhaps we should remember that Wikipedia would not exist without the efforts of Americans).

It should also be pointed out that many words/pronuciations that are considered to be American coinages used to be standard usage in England and it was we who changed. In these cases if anyone is wrong, it is us. The truth is that neither is wrong and that many of these discussions are a distraction, particularly if they are conducted in an infantile manner.

Rather than wasting time on these trivial issues of English usage we should be more concerned with the appalling levels of inarticulacy exhibited by school leavers all over the English speaking world.

Lets stop arguing over trivial differences in English and give ourselves a collective pat on the back that we have stopped French being the dominant global language. That is something we can all agree about. PrivateWiddle 12:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

PrivateWiddle, while I agree with you that this is a distraction, I think you are a) overreacting, b) wrong (British English exists - when an article about such a fought over subject stays on Wikipedia, its a pretty good sign that the concept does exist) and c) treading on pretty thin grounds with your last comment. As a non-native English speaker who lives in an English-speaking country, I have no objection to English being a widely-spoken or dominant language. Heck, I'd personally favour it if everybody on Earth could speak it as a second language, if only to give everybody a level base of communication. But I won't be patting your back for an achievement which isn't personal anyway. So no, not everyone agrees with you there, some might even consider the comment to be rather exatcly the mirror of the 'freedom fries' comment you complained about earlier. Ingolfson 23:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

To precisify (nice word, I'll put it in the public domain), "English" is neither American OR British, because by now there are many, many more factets of it (no language widely used is ever really unified anyway). Just as an Aussi if he speaks British English, or whether the English Wikipedia is an American project. It is an American-initiated project (and you can have our pats on the back for THAT), and it is heavily influenced by its share of US editors (as would be expected, given the distribution of English-speakers worldwide, and the distribution of internet access). But it is, certainly nowadays, neither a US project (except for legal matters, which have to be located somewhere) or a US-British one. There are many other natons in which English is the official language, and many editors like me who contribute a lot even though it isn't our native language. Because we consider it a great lingua franca. Ingolfson 23:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, sorry about veering totally off-topic. Ingolfson 23:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Autumn is fine. It's understood as the season after summer in every English-speaking nation, while "fall" is archaic except in the USA and Canada. In a case like this, you should go with the word everybody understands. Jsc1973 05:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I've known British people to know the word fall in the phrase "Spring forward, fall back" (with regard to Daylight Saving Time). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.113.40.1 (talk) 07:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

English people Don't even know what Daylight saving time is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veggieburgerfish (talk • contribs) 20:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but they refer to the change to British Summer Time in the spring as Spring Forward and the change back to GMT as Fall back. It is not used outside of that, however. 90.202.168.222 (talk) 09:28, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

No. We have Daylight Saving Time too, just to clear that up. AlmightyClam 19:02, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I've always assumed that we Americans call it fall because that is when the leaves fall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.171.206.112 (talk) 20:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I've read that fall was in use in Britain in the 16th/early 17th century century, which was when most of the American colonists came over (not the 18th century). Anyway, it's stupid to argue about calling autumn "fall" when everyone who speaks English calls the original season of lent "spring". Other languages like Dutch still refer to it as lent, but in English they call it spring because of how the plants spring out of the ground, which is exactly the same as calling autumn fall because the leaves fall. So unless you go back to using the Old English name for spring you can't complain about Americans saying fall.--204.52.215.71 (talk) 01:58, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I have heard Americans say both Autumn and Fall, is it a regional variation (Fdsdh1 (talk) 18:34, 23 January 2013 (UTC))

I'm an American, and I use both -- more or less interchangeably. However, I use "fall" more often. 211.225.33.104 (talk) 00:45, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

It's sometimes called 'the fall' in the US because autumn is the time when deciduous trees shed their leaves, and the leaves fall off the trees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.221.50 (talk) 09:34, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It is called fall because during the months of September thru November when the weather starts to cool the leaves fall to the ground.C. A. Levingston 22:49, 22 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caleving (talk • contribs)

What is autumn

Why is autumn 146.196.47.85 (talk) 18:51, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I suggest that you read this article to learn more about autumn. 331dot (talk) 19:56, 30 August 2023 (UTC)