Talk:Av (month)

Untitled

I propose moving this to "Av" since that is more common both as modern pronunciation and in English writing. --Zero 01:58, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree, most people refer to it as Av. Um, also, I feel very stupid for saying this, but I am not actually familiar with the idea that eating the flesh of a pig on the thirtieth day caused boils.. It seems slightly odd to be considering what happens if you eat traif anyway... Matthew Platts 21:50, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I did it, "Ab" is now a redirect to "Av". Hope not too many people start eating pig on Av 30 in protest, I don't want to be responsible for their boils. --Zero 22:02, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

A thought- the pig/boils bit may be Babylonian in origin, not Jewish. Does this mean it should be reinserted? I dunno. --Eliyak 16:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Dubious Tag

"This is the only month which is not named in the Bible"? Where are all of the other months named? I can think of Nisan and Adar (maybe also Sivan?) in Esther but that is from one of the latest books in the Bible. I am not looking but can someone point out the other occasions when Babylonian names are given? Valley2city 04:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Prepare to be stunned. A little. Mechon Mamre's search gives:

1. Nisan (Esther 3:7, Nehemiah 2:1)

-Aviv (Exodus 13:4, 23:15, 34:18; Deuteronomy 16:1)

1. Ziv (I Kings 6:1,37)
2. Sivan (Esther 8:9)
3. Tammuz (Ezekiel 8:14, somewhat debatable)
4. Av
5. Elul (Nehemiah 6:15)
6. Etanim (I Kings 8:2)
7. Bul (I Kings 6:38)
8. Kislev (Nehemiah 1:1)
9. Tevet (Esther 2:16)
10. Shevat (Zechariah 1:7)
11. Adar (Esther 3:7,13, 8:12, 9; Ezra 6:15)

So, 3 months are given alternate names, and Tammuz may not even be mentioned (though the word is definitely there). All the months beside Tammuz, Elul, and Kislev are given numbers. Interestingly, the alternate month names come from Kings. I wonder where they originate. --Eliyak T·C 00:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

For the love of AV

Could somebody please order all those events chronologically? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.247.170.105 (talk) 05:21, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Which events belong on the list - and which don't

There is a to-the-point discussion here (Cheshvan talkpage). Please take a look before adding items. You are most welcome to contribute. Thank you, Arminden (talk) 12:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

MOS violation

MOS:BOLD does not allow for the use of bold face in the list of events. It looks awful too. Zero^talk 01:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Feel fee to fix it. Debresser (talk) 11:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

I assume it's the same for all the other months and I'm not going to spend an hour fixing all of them. I changed the little list; change it back if you like. There is also an inconsistency in whether the day is written before or after the month. Zero^talk 12:07, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Done GordonGlottal (talk) 15:13, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Debresser (talk) 20:33, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Av is father

There can be no disagreement that "Av" in Hebrew means "father". There can also be no disagreement that there are a multitude of religious books and sites that state that the meaning of the name of the month "Av" is "father". That may be etymologically/historically correct or not, but it remains a fact. That statement has been in the article for many years, and I have restored it after a recent removal, which I hope I have now explained to be an edit based on a misunderstanding. In any case, whether editors agree or disagree with the claim, does not change the fact that the claim is out there and must be included in a comprehensive article about the month of Av. Debresser (talk) 21:12, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

The Chabad source just says that אב means "father", which is true. That doesn't imply that "father" is the origin of the name. The OU source hints at the Babylonian connection without spelling it out. In each case we have a homily on the name, a very common practice as you know, rather than an etymology of the name. Both of these sources know perfectly well that several Hebrew month names including this one come from the Babylonian calendar but presenting historical facts is not what homilies are for. Having homilies alongside serious etymologies devalues our article. The information could go somewhere else in the article but it doesn't belong in the etymology section. Zero^talk 01:36, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

As usual, when you explain yourself, I can agree with you. Your words, differentiating between etymology and homily, make sense. And I agree with you that the sources don't present it as a straightforward etymology. In view of this, I would not disagree with moving this elsewhere in the article. I would disagree with removing this. Debresser (talk) 00:08, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. We should be extremely careful about including fringe religious views, and especially about representing them as mainstream. Almost all Orthodox Jewish sources are aware that the month-names are neither Jewish nor Hebrew. A few ignorant quacks can't be allowed to embarrass all of Orthodox Jewry on wiki. GordonGlottal (talk) 00:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

GordonGlottal, you only prove how much you are editing from your POV. 1. Chabad and OU are major mainstream Judaism, not fringe. 2. The fact is that this opinion exists, and you trying to censor it is not being appreciated. Wikipedia adheres to documented facts, and this is a documented fact (even if it would be a folk-etymology). Debresser (talk) 13:11, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

I have personally worked for both a local Chabad and for the OU in rabbinic capacities. I'm confident that, in general, it is not reasonable to hold neither those estimable organizations nor Orthodox Jewry as a whole accountable for the strangest blog posts hosted on their websites. "The fact is that this opinion exists" please read some relevant wiki guidelines -- the purpose of this encyclopedia is not to record all extant opinions with equal weight. GordonGlottal (talk) 02:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Please take your own advice. You are, after all, speaking to an editor with 14 years of experience on Wikipedia and over 100k edits, not to mention a rabbi. In any case, an opinion that is easily supported by a dozen sites including to of the major mainstream organizations in Judaism, can not be brushed aside. A short mention, like the one presently in the article, is more than justified. Debresser (talk) 16:55, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 1 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

---

Av → Av (month) – (and redirect Av to AV) No primary topic for this digram regardless of whether the second letter is lowercase; for most two-letter combinations, readers are not expected to capitalize their search to find the disambiguation page unless the topic has extremely high significance (Ra, pi, qi, Ur) or there are very few alternative meanings (Hy, Vy?). No evidence that the month's significance is this high; more pageviews go to the disambiguation page than this one most months. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 20:15, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support Aston Villa F.C. has 123,357 views and AV idol has 13,876 compared with only 1,535 [1] for the month. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:02, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

  However, the relevant statistic would be how many readers got to those articles starting just with "AV". Surely far fewer. Zero^talk 23:33, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. No clear primary topic for this title. The safest bet is to have "Av" go to the disambiguation page. Paintspot Infez (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
• Comment. If this is renamed it should be "Av (Hebrew month)", in line with Tammuz (Hebrew month). I'm wondering it would be best to rename all Hebrew month names like that to make it consistent. Zero^talk 23:30, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

  I support the move but I don't think we need to move Kislev or other months without ambiguity. There's a competing value in brevity. GordonGlottal (talk) 21:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Comment: @Zero0000: The only reason why we have the page at "Tammuz (Hebrew month)" instead of "Tammuz (month)" is that "Tammuz (Babylonian calendar)" also exists; it's simply a bit of an exception instead of the norm. Paintspot Infez (talk)