Talk:Avatar: The Last Airbender/Archive 4

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Spoilers

I was looking at the history and someone made an edit removing spoilers from the article (they even mentioned what they did in their edit summary). I went to the spoiler warning site and it said you should not create spoiler-free alternatives as another option to readers. Should we revert the edit? Parent5446^{(Murder me for my actions)} 01:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

that was me and i believed that the premise of the Carchters section was to give a basic summary about them, not to mention future plot points. if they want to find out more, they are free to see the carchter pages. Thank you for not accussing me by the way. The Placebo Effect 01:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

This page is meant to just give an overview of the series, not precise data or day-by-day events within the Universe, character bios should reflect that. If people want detail or plot-relevent information, there's the specific character pages. It's nothing serious, but I feel that spoilers should be kept out of the article that is a basic introduction to the series. JBK405 02:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Character page

Someone randomly decided the characters needed their own list, and made one. The page provides absolutely nothing: it is a direct copy of the character section on this page. I move to delete it. Y BCZ 17:40, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Page size

I would just like to note that the article is currently 48 kilobytes, 16 KB larger than the 32 KB limit as set by Wikipedia:Article size. The limit is not a binding rule, but if you read the section on readability, you will find that most people would give up half way down the page because of it's length. They only want a short, concise summary of the show. I suggest that portions of the page be split into their own separate articles. (Ghostexorcist 17:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

I do not directly agree but I would like to know which parts you want to move. Parent5446^{(Murder me for my actions)} 19:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll let someone else more involved with the page decide on the matter.(Ghostexorcist 21:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

Elements: Plantbending / Metalbending

"Despite the fact that Wood and Metal are not pure bending elements in the Avatar world, the recent incorporations of “plantbending” (seen in “The Swamp”) and “metalbending” (seen in “The Guru”) respectively emulate these two other elements presented in the five elements of classical Taoism."

We've seen other "elements" bent as well (Lightning, Sand, I'm sure there are or will be others), but they are always part of the four basic elements. Even the "plantbender" stated that he was only bending the water in the plants ("The Swamp"), and the Guru states that "...even Metal is just a part of Earth that has been purified." (Right before Toph learns to bend it in "The Guru") This reference would ignore "Air" (which is not present in the classic five elements of Chinese Taoism), which is hardly valid, given the name of the show.

I realize that it's just a call-back to the earlier reference to Chinese Taoism, however, the declarative nature of the statement makes it appear fact, when it's not. Reference removed. --Snicker 01:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with the removal, not only are these no more special than other special bendings, but they specifically mention that they're not bending either metal or wood, just water and earth within the plants and metal walls. JBK405 01:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I don’t like the change, but since there is no real reference for the statement, it needed to go. I've changed the part that mentions Taoism to include a link to the Five elements (Chinese philosophy). (Ghostexorcist 02:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

Cycle of learning Bending

Alright guys, the following sentence of the article is in dispute:

"Beginning with the mastering of his/her native element, the Avatar learns to bend all four elements in the order of the cycle."

The argument is that the Avatar doesn't necessarily need to learn everything this way- Aang's brief lessons in Firebending and the fact that he's learning Earthbending before achieving status as a Waterbending Master is a good demonstration of this. Support for the sentence comes from Katara's line at the end of Book 1, Chapter 2- according to legend, the Avatar (Aang) must master the other elements- Water, then Earth, and finally Fire.

So come to a consensus here, don't try to start an edit war. For now, I'm going to make sure the article stays the way it is, until we can all reach an agreement. Y BCZ 19:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Even if the legend is commonly held to be true by most people in that universe, it does not mean it is authorative and necessarily true. The events as it occurs in the episode already contradict the legend. Roku arranged for Aang to learn how to firebending strongly suggests that an order need not be followed especially given the deadline. Roku's experience as an Avatar suggests his knowledge of Avatar's exceeds that of the legend.

The legend, to my recollection, does not mention the Avatar state, the existence of chakras, or the fact that if he dies in the Avatar state it ends the cycle. The legend is not an authorative or expert view on being an Avatar. The legend is likely a story passed down through word of mouth and, in reality, legends are not always true. The "facts" of this story contradict the legend. Since these events occurred and are not speculation, an order does not need to be followed. 38.98.69.242 19:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I took the comment out. Why not wait till it's settled before putting in back in. 38.98.69.242 19:25, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

From Merriam-Webster: 1 a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable b : a body of such stories <a place in the legend of the frontier> c : a popular myth of recent origin

It's a legend and it's also proven to be false. It's been debunked.38.98.69.242 19:32, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't take things so literally. The use of "legend" served as emphasis. "Legends say that.." etc. Theirs really nothing stopping him from learning how to at least bend an element, but the 'Avatar' cycle dictates a certain order. Hence 'Avatar' cycle. Plus lets just go with what they give us on the show.

Remember to sign your comments with four tildes (the "~"). Also, 38.98.69.242 guy, stop thinking you can just come on here and make up your own rules. Cooperate with the other users and if your edits are disputed, come to an agreement before just sticking them back on. The sentence at no point says that the Avatar has to learn the elements in that order. That's probably just the way things usually come about- in other words, traditionally, the Avatar learns the elements in that particular pattern, in which case, the statement is true. Y BCZ 19:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

if you look at the transcipt for the episode, it says he MASTERS them in that order not learns them in that order. The Placebo Effect 20:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for the edit. Wouldn't it be more appropriate and accurate to say, "According to legends, an Avatar etc. etc.... However, Aang has not followed the order by learning basics in firebending and concurrently learning waterbending and earthing bending." If you're talking about the order, why wouldn't you reference Aang breaking the order. Shouldn't it be mentioned that part of the legend is not true. And isn't it more like suggests than dictates since Aang is "free" to go in whatever he order he chooses? 38.98.69.242 20:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, he may be learning them concurrently, but he hasn't mastered them as a whole yet. The Placebo Effect 20:22, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Even then, shouldn't it be "Beginning with the mastering of his/her native element, the Avatar masters all four elements in the order of the cycle." Instead of learns.

Based on what's happen so far in the show, it seems that Aang could have potentially mastered the elements out of order. While it wasn't recommended, he could have finished his firebending training. He didn't because Jeong Jeong had to leave and he felt guilty. My question is there an order in which Avatars must master the elements? There doesn't seem to be a mechanism preventing him from changing his training around as needed. Also, if the legend referred to him mastering, does it apply to him learning as he has jumped around already.

The statement should be changed as it doesn't accurately reflect how Aang has changed his training around and it seems misleading. Wouldn't it be more accurate to generally, traditional or something other qualifier. It would be accurate to say (assuming 95% of a high school graduates goes to college), "graduates in this high school tend to go on to college" versus "graduates in this high school go on to college." Aang's case is unusual, but given he's the main character he serves as an important exemption.

How about something like this, "According to legends, an Avatar must master the four elements in the order of the Avatar cycle beginning with his/her native element. However, questions have arised whether this need be the case. (reference Deserter)" Or instead of "According to legends," "It is commonly believed that." I think this phrasing is more accurate.

Oh, here's a general question, can I delete out my own comments or is that poor etiquette? I'm a little confused as I don't edit the pages too often and this not meant to be flippant. Are the general rules, that you leave something in question in until a decision is reached? How come you don't remove and archive or something and then add it back in when a decision's been reached. 38.98.69.242 20:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

First, I've marked the point in dispute accordingly. Please note that removing this template before the issue is settled is considered vandalism.

Now, let's look at the issue, shall we? As far as I can determine, Katara's line is the only source for this information. Let's see what she said: "Beginning with the mastering of his/her native element, the Avatar learns to bend all four elements in the order of the cycle." Now, this comes from a common Water Tribe girl. Avatar Roku, however, seemed to disagree: he wanted Aang to learn Firebending in "The Deserter", remember? So, currently, we have one person that says they need to be in order and one who doesn't. Personally, I'd go with Roku.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 23:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikpedia entry for Christianity:

• "Christianity is a monotheistic religion centered on Jesus of Nazareth and his life, death, resurrection, and teachings as presented in the New Testament."

Note how the author has not presented Jesus as fact.64.128.100.194 23:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Mind making your point in more straight-forward terms? I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here.--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 04:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. The Christianity story is like a legend of sorts (not verifiable but held true by a lot of people). In describing Christianity, Wiki didn't describe the existence of Jesus as fact, but rather it references the New Testament. Likewise, since in the Avatar universe, the legend is a legend it should be qualified as such. You can clearly verify it's a legend, you can't verify that the legend is true and the body of work (the episodes) already show some internal contradictions. We also don't know that is actually true that previous Avatars have learned it in that order. It's part of the mythos or mystique of Avatar. It'd be interesting to see how other wiki entries of fiction deals with this problem.

Just so there's no accusation of fraud, the 38.98... IP is mine too.64.128.100.194 04:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

You're not even listening to us anymore are you? What is a legend but speculation? Since the legend was proved false, it's not needed on this page as it is not correct. Besides, how would Katara, whos only key to the outside world is her grandmother kanna, know how the Avatar thing actually works. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that it's not just Katara who thinks this. Note that when Aang went to Jeong Jeong, the deserter (at first) outright refused to teach him until he had learned Waterbending and Earthbending. As it turned out, Jeong Jeong was right to believe Aang wasn't ready. So there seems to be some degree of merit to the legend- the cycle doesn't have to be followed, but it might be optimal to do so. Y BCZ 16:10, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I still say Roku would know best. At the very least, his request outright proves it doesn't HAVE to be that way.

I still believe we don't need the note at all, but in the interest of compromise, I'll propose this: "While legend holds that the Avatar must master the elements in order, starting with their native element, this can sometimes be compromised when the situation requires it." That work?--Fyre2387 ^{(talk • contribs)} 16:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I like that idea. It seems to correlate with everyone's arguments. Also, we just plain need to try and wrap up this argument- it's a lot of hassle over a single sentence. Y BCZ 03:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

can we remove the dubious statement now since no one has said anything about it here for a week? The Placebo Effect 18:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)