Wikipedia

Talk:Azerbaijani literature/Archive 1

< Talk:Azerbaijani literature
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Bookku in topic Requesting wider attention
Archive 1

Comments

This article makes numerous ridiculous claims, that have no place in an encyclopedia. For example, having literature in 6th century AD, while Azerbaijan (either seen as a nation, state, or ethnic unit of any kind) is a much later formation.

That first book the article talks about is Central Asian (not Azeri), and was written after the Central Asians were Islamized, not before. And Nizami was a Persian poet. And so on, the article needs a major revision by a sane expert in the area.

Just one ramark. In many places in Internet (and even in some Encyclopedia) Azeri make a claim, that Nizami Gandzhevi was an Azeri poet. However, term Azerbaijani (or Azeri Turk) was first introduced in 1918. And it refferred to people, who live in the republic of Azerbaijan, not to etnic group. Etnically Azerbaijanis were, and are Turks.

Second, Nizami Gandzhevi was writing all his poems on Farsi, not Turkish or Azeri (which simply did not exist at that time). All serious studies mention Gandzhevi az a persian poet, who lived in Ganzha, then territory of Iran, now in the territory of Azerbaijan.

Gandzhevi as an Azeri poet was first mentioned by 'Bolshaja Sovetskaja Enciklopedia' in 1938.

I realize that the Azeri language is close to/mutually comprehensible with Turkish. It always seemed to me that the distinction is based upon religion; Turks follow Sunni Islam and Azerbaijanis follow Shia Islam. Am I right on this?

Cleanup

Hi all, this article has been placed on my desk as part of my role with the Wikipedia:Cleanup Taskforce. I'm interested in literature in general but I confess that I have no specific knowledge of Azerbaijani literature. I'm sure I'll make some missteps during the cleanup process, but please know that they aren't malicious. Someone has placed an NPOV tag on the article but I don't see any mention of it here on the talk page; does anyone want to speak up about what they think is POV? Thanks · Katefan0(scribble) 15:47, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)

Why is this page protected?

Mpt that I want to edit it, just watch cleanup. Septentrionalis 01:08, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. I have no idea why it's protected. I'll ask on the admin's noticeboard. · Katefan0(scribble) 01:30, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Nohat protected it about a week ago. I've left a message on his talk page. · Katefan0(scribble) 01:34, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
Ok, looks like there were some vandal problems; Nohat has now unprotected. Now I just have to figure out how to proceed with the cleanup!  :/ ... · Katefan0(scribble) 01:47, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

First round

I've removed the NPOV tag, since nobody has spoken up here about why the tag was there in the first place. I've also encyclopedia-ized much of what used to be a list. · Katefan0(scribble) 16:37, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Name of the article should be changed

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

... to Literature of Azerbaijan, because this article is not really about the literature written in the Turkish language of Azerbaijan (="Azerbaijani language"), but about all literature written in the region Azerbaijan. Therefore, the current name is totally confusing. There should be a seperate article dealing with the Turkish literature of Azerbaijan alone ... poets, such as Nizami who lived in Azerbaijan but did not write in Azerbaijani, are not part of the "Azerbaijani literature" tradition, though they are part of Azerbaijan's literary heritage. Tājik 10:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Huge POV problems

Latest comment: 18 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion

i have fixed the POV problems, and i agree with what tajik is saying above. this article makes no sense the way it is, but for now, i have gotten rid of the POV problems.Iranian Patriot 15:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, "fixing" is no better than the previous version. I have re-fixed it.--TimBits   17:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


i had gotten rid of the grammatical mistakes, i would appreciate if you do not change. ALSO, DEDE KORKUT IS A TURKIC STORY, IT DOESNT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ESPECIFICALLY WITH THE LITERATURE OF AZERBAIJAN. i am reverting the article back to the way i had it.Iranian Patriot 19:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not only gramatical mistakes and Dede Korkut is a very important part of the oral literature in Azerbaijan. I don't think your revert is suffisiently warranted and I am reverting it again, as I think that the previous version gives a better basis for improvement. But, it does not mean that I consider it perfect. We can work together to improve it. --TimBits   20:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Oral literature? does that even make sense? no. Dede Korkut is a turkic story which is not restricted to Azerbaijan. you have to accept this fact. you cannot claim that Dede Korkut is Azeri, it isnt.Iranian Patriot 20:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

What part of the oral literature does not make sense? I would suggest that you should refrain editing articles that you are not knowledgeable enough. If you knew enough about Azerbaijani literture, then you would know that Dede Korkut has an important place in it and many other tales and written literature in Azerbaijan is based on it. Dede Korkut of course is not restircted to only to Azerbaijan, it contains tales from a broad spectrum of history and geography. But it does not change the fact that Dede Korkut is one of the oldest and most revered piece of literature in Azerbaijan. --TimBits   21:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

ok, for now i will leave the Dede Korkut in, but what you are saying is kind of ilogical. is a french book that is popular in the USA be called american literature? no. how can the dede korkut be a part of azari literature whe it comes from a different group of people.Iranian Patriot 21:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Good analogy, but imperfect. Books ususally have single authors - and if the author is French, living in France and have nothing to do with American Literature, then it can not be called as a part of American literature. --TimBits   21:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC) Oh and recent edits are not only about Dede Korkut, but I will leave it as it is right now, before we figure out how to resent it in a more neutral manner. --TimBits   21:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

There was no country Iran or Azerbaijan during Seljuqid times. For example you say:In the 11th century and 12th century, Azerbaijani literature flourished under the Shirvanshahs. . But this is statement is wrong since Shirvanshahs themselves were really Persianized Arabs and all the literature was Persian. It is like calling native American literature as English literature. When we say Azerbaijani literature, we mean literature in Azerbaijani language. So Fizuli who is from Baghdad but was not from Iran or the Caucus is rightfully part of Azerbaijani literature. As the article currently says: Also in the 16th century, Muhammed Fuzuli produced his timeless philosophical and lyrical Qazals in both Persian and Azerbaijani. Benefiting immensely from the fine literary traditions of his environment, and building upon the legacy of his predecessors, Fizuli was destined to become the leading literary figure of his society. His major works include The Divan of Ghazals and The Qasidas.. Fizuli was not from the caucus but he is part of Azerbaijani literature. Also as you can see the article says produced in both Persian and Azerbaijani and so is relavent. Actually the interesting thing about Fizuli is that he wrote in Arabic as well. If you are including just anyone from the caucus, then Fizuli should not be included. Same with Hasan Oghlu who was from Khorasan but wrote in the Azerbaijani Turkish dialect. But Nizami did not write in Azerbaijani Turkish dialect. (despite his ethnicity being at least half Kurdish and the other half never be). This is not an ethnic issue and the article should deal with compositions in Azerbaijani language literature. As per Dede Qorqot its composition is not 1300 years old and no scholar has ever made such a claim. Numerous Persian and Arabic words make it certain that it was written in Ottoman era. Although how old is actual folk literature can be anyone's guess. That is Shahnameh was written in 10th century, but it stories goes back to Zoroaster and before hand. About Dede Qorqod Faruq Sumer puts the composition between 14th and 16th century. If you have any reliable scholars that have studied turkic languages, let us now. The Encyclopedia of Islam also has a fantastic article on Azeri Turkish literature. Have you read it? I can email it to anyone who wants to read it. The encyclopedia Iranica also a has good article on Azerbaijani Turkish literature. Lets keep the information and content of wikipedia reliable. --Ali doostzadeh 21:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
ok, why dont you read about Dede Korkut, you will find out that its old, older than the Turkic history of azerbaijan. this is about Azerbaijani literature.Iranian Patriot 22:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Nizami should not be in this article

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

i dont see what nizami has to do with azeri literature. I agree with doostzadeh's deletion. there needs to be consistancy throughout wikipedia. you cannot claim that azeri's have been turkic since the begining and then come here and claim non-turkic literature as your own...also, this is this about the literature of the azerbaijan republic? the title should be changed, because none of us will agree on what azeri literature really is.Iranian Patriot 21:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

What should be included?

Latest comment: 18 years ago17 comments3 people in discussion

It's not ONLY about the language, or geography or ethnicity here. It's about all of them. If a particular poet or a piece of literature is part of this tradition and has a considerable influence then it should be included. We should be inclusive rather than restrictive. I will explain my position on details later, right now I have some partying to do. Forza Italia. --TimBits   04:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes nice victory for Italy, as I was cheering for them. About your comment, language does not make sense since Nizami Ganjavi wrote all of his work in Persian. A person can not belong to both Azerbaijani and Persian literature, unless they wrote in both. And how come you shy away from writing that all of Nizami's work is in Persian?! Ethnicity wise, we know Nizami Ganjavi was half Kurdish and we had a long discussion on his page. That just leaves geography which has changed under different states. Then why don't you include Armenian authors from the current area of Azerbaijan as well? Or even writes who wrote exlusively in Arabic? And under Armenian literature, one does not include Azerbaijani authors from Irevan. Nezami Ganjavi was influenced considerably by Ferdowsi, so why not include him as well?
Geography, the area was called Arran back then, and the modern concept of Azerbaijani state did not exist back then. Furthermore if your concern is geographic, then you make an article about literature from the Caucus and include all the languages. Persian literature influenced Turkish literature considerably. Arabic literature influenced Persian. BTW Oghuz Turks were not in Azerbaijan in 6th and 7th century. Why don't you read the article on Azari literature in Encyclopedia of Islam? It has good information and is not biased in any way. The issue is not political. If someone has not created literature in Azerbaijani Turkish, then they are not part of Azerbaijani Turkish literature. That is the standard definition. Also which academic has said that dede qorqod goes back to the 6th 7th century when Oghuz Turks were not in the area back then? --Ali doostzadeh 09:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Nizami does belong to BOTH Azerbaijani and Persian literature. Becuase, unlike the Persian literature, Azerbaijani literature is not only about the language. Yes, he did write in Persian, but he lived in Azerbaijan and more importantly the reason for his inclusion is that he has a great influence in the later Azerbaijani literature. That's what separates him form others who may have lived and wrote in the same area. Ethnicity wise we do not know much and as far as literature is concerned we do not need to know much, it is irrelevant. The main threshhold here should be, whtether this author or a piece of literature, has infleunced the Azerbaijani literature, other factors are important too but this is the one that we need to use when we have to differentiate what is and what is not part of this literature. I am not talking about the influence of a great poet, it may influece many literatures, that way yes, Ferdowsi has influenced Azerbaijani literature too, but is not part of it. What I'm talking about is if his legacy is calimed by the said people or not. Ferdowsi's legacy is not, but Nizami's is. Furthermore, I don't know on what you base your assumtion, but I have never shied away from writing that his works are in the Persian language. And the article as it is, explains it, if there is a need for more explanation, you can of course make necessary edits. --TimBits   15:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry but at that time there was no state of Azerbaijan. Shakespear has influence many in world literature, but he is part of English literature. The article can not take such a wide inclusion, or else every single Arab and Persian poet has influenced some other literature and we can talk about. Legacy also does not make you part of another literature. Zoroaster's Gathic Avestan has influenced Persian literature, but Avesta Gathic is not Persian literature. Else I can go as wide as claiming Shakespear's human legacy which is for all people. Nizami belongs as much as to Azerbaijani literature as he belongs to Arabic, Urdu, Hindi and English literature. In fact Nizami's work was translated to English, Russian, Germanic, French before Azerbaijani Turkish. That is something you might want to know. His work has influenced many, but still he wrote in Persian and belongs to Persian literature. Also do not forget that most of the themes of Nizami's work belong to Sassanid era or one even in arab folklore (Lili o Majnoon). So you are indirectly claiming ancient Persian folklore as Azerbaijani literature whereas Nizami's main source was Shahnameh. You keep changing your criterion and your criterion btw is not the right criterion. Also calling Nizami Azerbaijani is a biased POV since we know he was at least half Kurdish and I firmly believe he was 100% non-Oghuz. I have brought Encyclopedia Islam and Encyclopedia Iranica. Also the dates are wrong as well. There was no Azerbaijani Turkish literature in the 6th century. Did you read the bottom text from Encyclopedia of Islam? Have you read the Encyclopedia Iranica article on Azeri literature? Why are you ignoring standard academic sources? --Ali doostzadeh 21:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I am getting tired of explaing the reason I want Nizami to be included here, but people keep bringing irrelevant examples. One does not help but wander, if it is the accuracy of the article that some people are after. But, I still do believe that we can improve things together. I have not changed any criteria, but I have explained it, tried to show from other angles, when a fellow editor indicated that he/she does not understand it. I never say anything that I can not back up. Otherwise, I migh be better just to shut up. --TimBits   02:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Well if you can not explain it, then we can mediation. I have many sources including encyclopedia Iranica and encyclopedia of Islam . I also want to improve this article as I have read part of a major book on Azerbaijani literature as well many encyclopedic articles. Azerbaijani literature is not Persian literature. Because Persian and Azerbaijani are two different languages. Many Persian language poets have influenced Azerbaijani literature, probably the greatest one being Hafez Shirazi and then Sa'adi. It does not make them part of Azerbaijani literature. --Ali doostzadeh 03:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


that makes no sense whats so ever. Rumi has influences a lot of english literature and music, but can they claim rumi as part of english literature and music? no, because he wasnt english. Joseph Conrad, polish born, is considered one of enlgish literatures greatest authors, why? because HE WROTE IN ENGLISH. you cannot claim everything as azerbaijani.Iranian Patriot 16:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
My friend, I have explained about what I mean by influence. Saying that Nizami is not a part of Azerbaijani literature is nothing but ridiculus. --TimBits   16:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
ok, well then we might as well add rumi to english literature, and a bunch of persians into turkish literature, and many english writers into eastern literature, etc... influence means nothing. if i write some literature that is influenced by lets say a famous turkish author, does that make my work turkish literature? even if it wasnt in turkish? by your logic, yes, but by standard logic, no.Iranian Patriot 16:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Rumi and another bunch of poets who wrote in Persian may definetaly be added to the Turkish literature, but not the English literature. Because, even though he may have influenced some authors, Rumi's place in English literature is negligible, as opposed to its place in Turkish literature and Nizami's place in Azerbaijani literature-which can even be considered fundamental. Now, when one tries to separate someone as influential as Nizami from Azerbaijani literature, then there emerges a very distorted picture about the real Azerbaijani literature. I understand the objections and motivations of some people against it, but please keep politics away, this is supposed to be about literature. --TimBits   17:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

What? now your going to say that rumi belongs in turkish literature? i dont understand your logic at all. it seems to me that you are trying to dig as deep as you can to try to find a way out of this, but the thing is that the more deeper you dig the more complicated your making this for yourself and this article. you are making no sense at all.Iranian Patriot 18:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

:) Will dig as deep as necessary. Please try to understand my point. Just try. --TimBits   18:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
i am trying but i cant. you make no sense at all. so what about this: persian literature greatly influenced turkish literature, so doesnt persian literature all of the sudden become turkish? what logic is that? i garuntee you that historians, and literature experts will disagree with you.Iranian Patriot 18:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
anyway, your logic also doesnt make sense in the fact that it would be vice versa. if persian literature influence turkish literature, than turkish literature would be a part of persian literature, not the other way around. the same with nizami. if nizami's persian poetry influence azeri turkish literature, than that azeri literature would technically be persian. so your ligic is flawed in this manner as well.Iranian Patriot 18:52, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
That is true his logic does not make sense. I think he has a strong pro-Turkish bent(see some of his edits in Greek,Armenian related articles, which is not my concern but nevertheless shows he has some biased POV and indeed he should keep politics away and write materials that correspond to academic encyclopedias). He is pushing a POV whereas Enyclopedia of Iranica and Encyclopedia of Islam are unbiased sources written by two scholars well versed in Azerbaijani literature. He has failed to read those two sources. For example Arabic literature and the Qur'an specially have influenced Persian literature. Are we going to claim the Qur'an as part of Persian literature? Indeed not only Qur'an but the Prophets Hadeeth have influenced Persian, Turkish, Hindi, Urdu, Bengali literature. So why not claim Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HP) as a figure of Persian literature!! Another work is Nahjul Balagha of Hazrat Ali(AS). They have influenced Persian literature, so are going to call the 4th caliph of Islam, a Persian writer?! Timbits ideas are a strong POV pusher and goes counter against standard encyclopedic articles and common sense. We do not have to accept his varying and unstable criterion since wikipedia should be neutral. Look at this statement he wrote: Historically, Nizami Ganjavi has been held up as one of Azerbaijan's greatest poets, although Iranians also consider him as a native son (he wrote in Persian). Firstly the whole concept Nizami Ganjavi being "Azerbaijani" was born from last century. So there is nothing historical about it. And has been held up by who? Because the state of Azerbaijan was declared around 1920! Also he makes it seem like Nizami is not Iranic (which he was at least half Iranic ethnically), by inserting the word historical in the argument. Also look how he avoids in writing that all of Nizami's work is in Persian. It is well known that all works from Nizami is solely in the Persian language. Indeed most of the themes of Nizami's work comes from pre-Islamic Persia. Also Shakespear is read more in India now than England or the USA. BTW I know some Arab countries whose modern liteartures are influenced by Shakespear. So perhaps Shaikh Sabir oops I mean Shakespear is an Arabic poet and writer and part of Arabic literature. Hypothetically speaking, if X creates some Arabic masterpieces, and say two hundred years from now, X's writing is read widely read around the world through translation, it does not make X an English or Chinese poet. Nor does it make his work part of Chinese literature since it was written in Arabic. I can tell that Zoroastrian concept influenced Persian literature greatly, but the Gathas are part of Avesta literature and not modern Persian literature. So lets keep the article academic and encyclopedic and keep a NPOV and keep politics away. --Ali doostzadeh 21:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  • That is true his logic does not make sense.- I do not have to satisfy the sense of each and every editor. My only concern is to improve the articles.
  • I think he has a strong pro-Turkish bent(see some of his edits in Greek,Armenian related articles, which is not my concern but nevertheless shows he has some biased POV and indeed he should keep politics away and write materials that correspond to academic encyclopedias).- One can say the same about anybody who he/she does not agree with. I do not have any POV. If my edits seem to be a certain way to you, it does not necessarily mean that it is ME who has POV.
  • Are we going to claim the Qur'an as part of Persian literature? Is it one of the fundamental pieces of the Persian literature? Is Persian literature built on it? If the answers were yes to these questions, then yes we should, but the answers are no.
  • We do not have to accept his varying and unstable criterion since wikipedia should be neutral. None of my criterion are varying.
  • Look at this statement he wrote: Historically, Nizami Ganjavi has been held up as one of Azerbaijan's greatest poets, although Iranians also consider him as a native son (he wrote in Persian). I have not written this piece, direct your objections to whoever wrote it. If he is not Azerbaijani because the modern Azerbaijani state was proclaimed in 20'th century, then he can never be considered Iranian too. When you go about accusing others for POV, think about your own self at least for couple of seconds. Do not automatically try do defend yourself. Just think for a second, my friend.
  • Also look how he avoids in writing that all of Nizami's work is in Persian. Is there any need for that? Have I ever claimed otherwise? If not, then why don't you use good will against others when you are not sure about a certain ussue? --TimBits   02:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


Well your logic should correspond to standard academic sources. I have mentioned two complete articles on Azerbaijani history. Your are just guessing. If you wanted to improve the article, then bring some academic sources. Your POV is obvious. Qura'n has had more influence on Persian and Azeri and Urdu literature than any other text or poet. So the answer by your criterion would be yes. I have read many parts of Nezami's work in the original language and many quotes are even directly from the Quran'. So by your definition Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HP) should be under Persian literature. The Quran and Hadeeth have influenced Azerbaijani literature much more than any poet writing in Persian. So why don't you make the Quran and Hadeeth as Azerbaijani literature?
I did not say Nizami was Iranian citizen. I said he was Iranic ethnically. He was at least half Kurdish. Yes the state of Iran has been recreated many times, last time by the Safavids. So when we say Nizami is Azerbaijan, Iranian, Kurdish..etc. We strictly mean ethnicity.
And yes I find it necessary to say that all of Nizami's work is in Persian and Nizami wrote solely in Persian and I will emphasize this. Since this wikipedia article is talking about Azerbaijani literature and once the readers notice that Nizami does not even have one verse in Azerbaijani Turkish, they will see the internal contradictions and biased POV. Also there other wrong points. Shirvanshahs solely supported Persian literature and were not ethnic Azerbaijanis. And the earliest Azerbaijani composition is from the 13th century(Encyclopedia Islami and Encyclopedia Iranica). If you have any other sources to counter this claim from reputable professors, bring it forth.
It is true Persian literatue has influenced Turkish(azerbaijani, Chagatay, Anatolian) and Hindi and Urdu and Sindi and Punjabi literature greatly. But this does make Persian literature transform into the literature of any of these languages. Arabic literatue influenced Persian poetry greatly too, but this does not make Arabic literature into Persian literature. I do not have good will here because you blatantly are ignoring the Encyclopedia of Islam and Encyclopedia of Iranica and are following your own POV which has no academic references. Azerbaijani Turkish literature has its own rich heritage and any work in this language is considered part of Azerbaijani literature. --Ali doostzadeh 03:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Italic textYou should read Nizami's Chosrov & Shirin to understand that he's not a persian

Actually it is Khusraw and not Chosrov. And Khusraw was the Persian Sassanid King. Shirin was one of his wife who according to some sources was Armenian and according to other Nestorian Syriac. And I can read Khusraw and Shirin since it is written in Persian.

Encyclopedia Islam

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This is from the Encyclopedia Islam under Azerbaijani literature: If we set aside the Kitab-i Dede Korkud , whose first composition is ascribed to the 11th century, although the text was probably not fixed before the 14th century, the first great name in Adhari Turkish literature is that of Shaykh Izz ad-Din Asfarayini, a renowned 13th century poet whose wrote under the Makhlas (pen name) of Hasan-Oghlu or Pur-Hasan.

Two poets of the 14th century who played in an important role in development of Adhari literature were Kadhi Burhan Ad-din and Nasimi. Nasimi who sometimes used the Makhlas of Huseyni, was a contemporary of Timur. A master of Arabic and Persian, as well as Azari, he used his poetic gifts to propagate the Hurufi doctorine.

His simple and attractive diction made him the most popular poet of his time. The medieval period of Azari literature is regarded as closing with him, but the themes and lyricism of his poetry had their influence on the development of the new period.

The simple (Azari) Turkish style introduced by Nasimi was raised to the greatest heights by Habibi, Shah Ismail the Safawi and Fizuli. Habibi poet, lyricist and a scholar, who for a while enjoyed the patronage of Shah Ismail Safawi, constitutes a stage between Nesimi, Shah Ismail and Fizuli.

Then it gets to Safavid and modern era. The article was written A. CafferOglu. Also the Encyclopedia Iranica article by Gerhard Doefer on Azeri Turkish is very informative. The article should be academic. To put a picture of Nezami Ganjavi without mentioning all his work is in Persian in a page about Azerbaijani literature does not make sense either. Persian literature and Azerbaijani literature while both rich, and while Persian literature has influence Azarbaijani literature, are two different topics. --Ali doostzadeh 12:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Dispute tag

Latest comment: 18 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The very first sentence of the second section is inaccurate. Pre-Islamic Azarbaijan was not Oghuz Turkic by any means. That is completely false. It was Ancient Azari language.--Zereshk 16:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

PLease make NPOV Edits

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

This statement in the article is totatally POV (POint of View), incorrect, and not neutral as it is suppose to be.


Historically, Nizami Ganjavi has been held up as one of Azerbaijan's greatest poets, although Iranians also consider him as a native son (he wrote in Persian).
  • Firstly, writing in Persian does not automatically make any particular individual an Iranian. This is POV. Any language can be used, such as Kurdish and Azari, and the individual will still be Iranian.
  • Secondly, the statement "although Iranians also consider him a native son," is making a POV assertion that Nezami was not an Iranian, but wrongly considered an Iranian. The words although and consider are not neutral.
  • Thirdly, Persian was and has not always been the officially language of Iran. Do not make the mistake of assesing the characterisitcs of Iranian or non-Iranian based on just or only the Persian language.
  • Fourthly, Azaris are of Iranian nationality and this statement is irrational. Azaris are not Persian, but they are Iranian. It is also conventionally beleived that Nezami was born in the regionof Azarbaijan, his ethnicity is not really known either. He was however half Kuridsh, becuase his mother was a Kurd.
  • Fifthly, there was no state of Azarbaijan at the time. It seems that he was also born in 'Azarbaijan proper' and not the territory that is Arran or the modern day Republic of Azarbaijan. So by what criteria is he being defined as non-Iranian or 'just Azari?' And how does being Azari mean you are not an Iranian? Where not many great historical figures of Iran Azaris, such as Shah Ismail I?
  • Sixthly, Nezami himself can be seen as claiming Iranian nationality from his work,influence, and history.
  • Seventhly, Nezami was influenced greatly by Ferdowsi, Sanai, Asad Gorgani Asadi Tusi and other great Iranian poets, before him, who he saw himself as a traditional inheritor of. These great poets are all clearly Iranian and express this in segments of their poetry.

This article needs to be written in a correct and accurate format without POV. Thank you. 69.196.164.190



you make a great point. i will rephrase that part.Iranian Patriot 16:51, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I also concur. The user: 69.196.164.190 makes very good points.
Azerbaijani literature should focus on Azerbaijani literature with sources from standard academic references. Note how timbits under the picture of Nizami(why not a picture of Nasimi or Fizuli or someone that has actually written Azerbaijani Turkish) writes: Azerbaijani Persian poet. The title 'Azerbaijani' gives it an ethnic bent. --Ali doostzadeh 22:48, 10 July 2006 (UTCa

actually, i had put in the persian part until we got this issue settle. before that, it was just azerbaijani poet, i put the persian in so people would know that he was a persian literature poet.Iranian Patriot 01:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Other problems

Latest comment: 18 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The article is POV'd against Iran. This is obvious because no mention whatsoever is made of the following stars of literature from Azarbaijan:

and others I cant remember now.--Zereshk 16:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for the comment my friend. Actually Mahasti, Shams Tabrizi, Khaghani would not belong to Azerbaijani literature. Since their mother tongue was neither Oghuz Turkic or they all wrote in Persian. Azerbaijani literature should be those that have contributed to Azerbaijani Turkish literature. For example Abu Nuwas and Hallaj were both of Iranian origin but their contribution is to Arabic literature. Also AKhoundzadeh ancestry is originally from Rasht, but he is a contributor to Azerbaijani literature. Also Kasravi and Iraj Mirza and even Baraheni have wrote exclusively in Persian. It doesn't mean they were not Azerbaijanis, but literature has to do with the language it is created. --Ali doostzadeh 21:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Confusion

Latest comment: 16 years ago14 comments5 people in discussion

I think the biggest problem here is that we are confused about what this article is about? Is it about the Turkic literature, or the non-Turkic literature, etc... I think this is what is getting us confused. Before we start discussing who should be on here and who shouldn't, we must first clarify what this article is supposed to be about, as specifically as we can. Iranian Patriot 02:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Very good point. Let's then identify first, what this article should include and what not. Then we can improve things a lot easier, without constant reverts. I don't like to get to be called a POV pusher for no good reason. Let's talk first, and then act together. --TimBits   03:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with both of you, gentleman. 69.196.164.190
also, we can add a new section and call it "influences on Azerbaijani literature" and include Nizami and other non-Azari (azari language) writers. This way, timBits will be happy, and we will be happy.Iranian Patriot 04:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The article should reflect what standard sources like Encyclopedia of Islam and Encyclopedia Iranica has written. They are both online. We can have a section on influences on Azerbaijani literature and can mention Ferdowsi, Sanai, Nizami, Hafez, Qur'an and the influence of Persian literature on Azerbaijani literature. Also the 6th century date is wrong. And neither were the Shirvanshahs ethnic Azerbaijanis. I think we should be clear and every statement should have reputable and preferably western university scholarship backing. Azerbaijani is a Turkish language (influenced greatly by both Arabic and Persian, specially in its classical poetry where many poems have more Persian words than Turkish) and has a rich literature itself and it is different from Persian literature. Just like Arabic literature is different from Persian literature. --Ali doostzadeh 04:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The new section has been added. Please, Ali you seem very educated in this subject, i would appreciate if you add on to it.Iranian Patriot 04:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I have read my share about Azerbaijani literature and I am going to use standard Academic sources. I think if people are interested in improving the article, they should read the following articles: [1] [2] [3] Also see the Encyclopedia of Islam and I will write the rest of the portion tommorow and we can use it. I request that all users specially Mr. Timbits read the third article please so that we may all have new starts. Note I am not pushing any POV, but this article deserves better than this and one must refer to standard academic sources. --Ali doostzadeh 04:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Also tommorow I will write the rest of the material from Encyclopedia of Islam [[4]].--Ali doostzadeh 05:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the subject is being made more complicated than it really is -- Azerbaijani literature cannot be only that which is written in Azerbaijani (Turkic) or even in older common Turki language(s). This is neither scholarly, academic, nor fair, and contradicts the Iranian view of Azerbaijanis as Indo-European and Aryan people who have simply become "Turkicized" by those "savage" Turkic "invaders", or references about "Azeri/Azari" language being some sort of an Indo-European language. All literature that was written by Azerbaijani nationals (i.e., not limited to ethnic Turkic Azerbaijanis) and written in Azerbaijan (both North and South), qualifies as such. Azerbaijan has hundreds, thousands of titles written only in Russian -- does it mean that too cannot be made part of Azerbaijani literature? What about multitude of authors who wrote in Arabic, or at least have their works saved only in Arabic such as Abulhasan Bakhmaniyar al-Azerbaijani (d. 1066), Abubakr Ahmed Bardiji (d. 914), Abusaid Ahmed Bardai (d. 929), Musa Shahavat, Ismail ibn Yassar, Abu-l-Abbas al-Ama, Mansur Tebrizi, Eynalguzat Miyanaji (d. 1131). I've also already cited Masud ibn-Namdar and Ali even provided a reference to one of his books he found in a library. Thus, let's not get fixated with only Persian-language writings -- we have a bunch of Arabic and Russian language writings, but they are still very much Azerbaijani, much like all non-Armenian language writings are still claimed by Armenians and gladly accepted as such.

Azerbaijan has a famous writer Chingiz Abdullayev who writes only in Russian, as does Afanasy Mamedov, another prominent writer who even lives in Russia. And multiple-Oscar winning scriptwriter and director Rustam Ibragimbekov also writes in Russian - but they are still part of Azerbaijani literature, although also, albeit to a lesser extent, of Russian literature. There is the great Banu -- an Azerbaijani female author who wrote only in French, lived in France and was a French citizen. There are other examples of Azerbaijanis living abroad and writing in foreign languages (incidentally, neither Arabic nor Persian languages, nor Russian, can be considered "foreign" for Azerbaijanis, at best not native or not primary, but definitely not foreign in the strict sence of that term).

Vladimir Nabokov wrote a lot in English, yet is still very much part of Russian literature, as is Pushkin, whose grandfather was from Africa. As was Alexander Dumas' ancestor. F.Kafka and H.Heine were Jewish, sometimes didn't even live in German homeland, yet still are considered as German authors and part of German literature. There are many examples of Turkic rulers writing exclusively in Persian and adopting non-Turkic names and tahalluses -- but their writings, whilst enriching and being part of Persian literature, are nevertheless part of Turkic one too. History of literature is filled with example of either non-titular nationals writing in the titular language or titular nationals writing in another language - yet still rightfully considered as primarily part of that particular titular nationality's literature. This is because the people living there -- despite changes of languages or alphabets -- still grow up on those stories, myths, poems, etc., and that's exactly what defines nationality.

Nizami, Nasimi, Fizuli, Khatai, etc., are considered as Azerbaijani not only because of the language they wrote in (or don't have any saved works in some other language). Likewise, no one is denying at-Tabari, who wrote in Arabic, or many other Iranian authors, to Iran. Likewise, no one denies Pahlavi-writings from Persians, even though it is common heritage to all Iranians and non-Iranians of the greater region. Thus, let us not mix politics and other things into this. I've also cited Iraj Parsinejad who listed half of his book with Azerbaijanis who greatly contributed to the modern literary Iranian criticism, including the person he considers as the founder of that, Mirza Fatali Akhundov, who was neither born/died in Iran or lived there much, nor was Persian nor even knew Persian as well as his native Azerbaijani language (which Parsinejad clearly notes in his book).

Also, it's good to know what Iranica and some other sources say, but so it is beneficial to know what the academia in Azerbaijan (or in Russian-language scholarship in general) itself says about its literature -- and all of those above "contentious" authors are very much regarded as Azerbaijani according to the modern understanding of the concept of nationality. There is no conflict of any kind, since the language in which those Azerbaijani authors wrote, as well as the city they were born or lived, is also generally mentioned, thus not denying anything to anyone. You simply cannot deny American's their literature just because it is in "English" or written by descendents, sometime in first generation, of Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English immigrants. --AdilBaguirov 22:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


Exactly, take your own advice for what it is worth. You can not also denny Iran its literary heritage based on either Azari or non-Azari langauge(s). Azari literature is just as much a part of Iran's literary heritage as Persian. I think you should also make a distinction between literary heritage, literary influence, and literature. This page has to be edited factually and also stress that Azarbaijani literature is a integral part of both Iran and the Republic of Azarbijan's (Arran's) trations, cultures, and heritages. 69.196.164.190
I have disagree with my friend adil here. Literature is tied with the language. Tabari would be part of Arabic literature as would be Masud Namdar. The point is not even about ethnicity or geographical area. Tabari would not be an Iranian author if we are considering citizenship since neither Azerbaijan or Iran existed at a state yet. Tabari would not be considered Persian literature, as he did not write Persian. He is simply Persian because of his ethnicity. It has to do with literature and language. Tabari is not part of Persian literature. He would be part of Arabic literature produced by Iranians. It is estimated that from the Islamic times there 1.8 million ancient arabic manuscripts and .5 million Persian manuscripts. About 1/4 of the Arabic manuscripts has been written by authors of Iranian backgrounds, but these are all part of Arabic literature and these authors enriched Arabic literature.
On the other hand Fizuli would be part of Arabic, Persian and Turkish literature and his ethnicity was from the turkmen Bayat tribe. One can make other articles about Persian or Arabic or Russian literature from the current geographic areas of the republic of Azerbaijan and talk about the contribution of Azerbaijanis to these literatures. About Akhoundzadeh he has a auto-biography of himself and he knew Persian very well as he wrote the auto-biography. His background is from Rasht, Iran. But the point is that he is part of Azerbaijani literature since he wrote in that language. Same with Fizuli. There could be a separate article talking about literature produced from the current area of caucus Azerbaijan. Or literature produced by Iranian Azerbaijanis. The encyclopedia of Islam for example has an article on Azarbaijani literature and nothing is mentioned on Persian or Arabic writings from the area. The article is not about ethnicity but about literature output of Azerbaijani (which is Azerbaijani Turkish language). For example Eynalguzat Miyanaji which you named or more well known as 'Ain al-Quzzaat al-Hamadani has Persian works and shows actually features of local Persian dialect not found in standard Persian.
He would be someone that is part of Arabic and Persian literature. Or the other author, Abul-Hasan Bahmanyaar who was the greatest student of Avicenna, had Zoroastrian background. But he is not part of Zoroastrian, Persian, Azerbaijani..literature. He is part of Arabic and Islamic literature because that is where he made his contribution and that is the religion he converted to. Avicenna and Biruni both had Persian and Arabic works, although they had more Arabic works. So they contributed to both literatures. Personally if I was leaning towards a biased POV, I would like to consider Tabari or Ibn Nadeem or Hallaj(who is considered the greatest arabic language mystic poet but was Iranian ethnicity) or Ibn Muqaffa' or Abu Nuwas (who is considered the greatest arabic language romantic poet but was of Iranian ethnicity) as Iranian literature, but the fact is that they wrote in Arabic and forever they will be known as part of Arabic literature. One can not put them in an article on Persian literature. Same with Ibn Kathir or Ibn Khalikan who were both Kurds, but they are not part of Kurdish literature. Again, there could be a another article talking about literature produced from the caucus geographical area in various languages and the ethnicity of most of these authors would be extremly hard to tell. But when the article is titled "azerbaijani literature", then one is talking about "azerbaijani Turkish literature" which is an independent Turkic language which has produced its share of rich literature. --Ali doostzadeh 01:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

you explained that very well ali. also, i would like to mention that iran has existed for thousands of years, it is not a "new nation" like iraq or north azerbaijan. however, i think what you meant to say was that iran at that time was occupied by arabs and then seljuks, and therefore it did not exist as its own soveriegn nation. i agree with everything else you said ali, you explained everything very well.Iranian Patriot 01:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It is true that people referring to themselves as Iranian have existed since a long time. In fact the Sassanids called their country Iran shahr and the Parthians used Ariana and Arya-shahr. Also Iran as a geographical and ethnic identity has existed. But the Iran of today as a nation state after the Islamic era goes back to the Safavids. --Ali doostzadeh 03:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with you, Ali. Literature is tied with the language. In Iran there is no particular language that is designated as the national language, thus Azari, Persian, Kurdish, etc. are all considered Iranian. Let us not mix nationality with language here when it comes to literature. If I write a novel in English, Azari or Persian literature are not going to be credited or enriched, but on a seperate article I can be noted as a noteworthy Iranian national who can contributed to English literature. I should not be mentioned in either an article on Persian or Azari literature.
In the Republic of Azarbaijan (Arran) there is one language that is a literary language and that is Azari. In Iran there are more than one language that are literary languages such as Persian, Azari, Kurdish, and Baluch. They all form their own distinctive literature, but all fall into the same line as Iranian heritage. 69.196.164.190
Thanks for everyone for their comments. Well I would say Kurdish, Avesta and Baluchi would fall under the broader category of Iranic literature just like Uzbek or Uighyur would fall under the broader category of Turkic literature. Literature is tied with the language. Similarly with Hindi, Urdu, Sanskrit, Pali which are Indian Indo-Aryan literature. Also for example Armenian, Talyshi, Persian, Russian literature produced since the establishment of the country of Azerbaijan from its citizens from any background would also be considered literature of Azerbaijan. So Abu Nuwas who was ethnic Persian, would be considered part of Arabic literature. He can not be considered Iraqi, (even though he wasn't born in Iraq and was born in Iran but assuming he was born in modern day Iraq which he spent most of his life in), since the state of Iraq did not exist. He can not be considered part of Persian literature, despite his tremendous influence and despite his Persian background. So he is a ethnic Persian (according to most sources) and an Arabic poet (language). But I do not believe he should be called Iraqi because such a country did not exist till the 20th century. Shahryar the poet who was an ethnic Azarbaijani wrote both in Persian and Azerbaijani. He is part of Azerbaijani literature as well as Persian literature as well as literature from Iran. He was a citizen of Iran of course as well. I think we need to make sure our terminologies are accurate. A separate article on poets and writers in Persian, Russian, Arabic from the Caucasian areas of Azerbaijan would definitely be welcomed and I clearly state that these are many times shared heritages even if some of these people did not speak Azerbaijani Turkish at all. (for clear example the Zoroastrian Bahmanyar). So Abul-Hassan Bahmanyar the son of Marzuban who was born a Zoroastrians(Ibn Funduq) (so he was not a native speaker of Azeri Turkish) is part of the Arabic literature heritage produced from Iran (he was a student of Avicenna and probably met in Hamadan) and Azerbaijan. But he did not write in Azerbaijani, and so we can not put him in an article about Azerbaijani literature but a separate article on Arabic literature produced from the geographical area of Caucas Azerbaijan would be great and can be considered part of Azerbaijani and Iranian heritage (since you really can not separate the cultural spheres of the geographical regions of Iran and Azerbaijan before the modern era.). The primary meaning of Azerbaijani literature is Azerbaijani Turkish literature. Else if it is geographical then why is Fizuli from Iraq is mentioned? Or Hasan Oghlu of Khorasan? Fizuli would be an Iraqi rather than Azerbaijani if we are talking geographically. Ethnically though he was from the Bayyat tribe which speaks Azerbaijani Turkish and he is considered the greatest poet in the Azerbaijani language. So I think a separate article is needed with regards to contributions to other languages from the area of the caucasian republic of Azerbaijan. One can even start from Caucasian Albanian literature and Pahlavi monuments from that area and progress onwards. But classical Arabic and Persian and Azerbaijani literature which all have rich traditions are three different groups identified totally by language not by ethnicity or even geography. Perhaps another clear example would be say Rudaki. Rudaki was born in todays Uzbekistan, and he was ethnically Iranic. He wrote in Persian and regardless of his non-arguable Iranic ethnicity, this makes him part of Persian literature. Can he be considered part of Uzbek literature? Definitely not, since he didn't write in Uzbeki-Chagatay although his influence has been tremendous through-out the Turkic-Indic-Iranic speaking lands. Same with Biruni who even wrote that he does not know the order, meanings and cyclic nature of the Turkish months and clearly states that the people of Khawarazm are a branch of Persians and was Iranic background (meaning his mother/father tongue was Iranic nothing about race). Can he be claimed as an Uzbek scholar? No because Uzbekistani citizenship did not exist back then. Can he be called part of Uzbek literature? No because he has written only in Arabic and Persian and so he is part of Arabic and Persian literature. But in an article about literature produced from Uzbekistan(and not Uzbeki literature), one can mention Biruni and Rudaki, although discussion of their background should be left to their own relavent wikipedia links. BTW can someone tell me why Bahmanyar is pronounced Bakhmanyar in the country of Azerbaijan? I thought usually they do not pronounce the kh sound there, although Bahman is the correct form (from Pahlavi Vohuman ultimately Avesta Vohumanah = excellent thoughts) and the h->kh sound change is interesting in this case. --Ali doostzadeh 03:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Friends. Looks like there is already a separate article about famous people from Caucasian Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan. [5]. Note Nezami and Khaghani and others are included and that is fine because they were born from the area although they did not contribute to Azerbaijani literature. Just like Pushkin with his ethiopian background contributed to Russian literature. So this article should concentrate on the literature produced in Azerbaijani Turkish (hence Azerbaijani literature) which was its original purpose. --Ali doostzadeh 14:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

No consensus for move. Grandmaster (talk) 08:27, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Incomplete references and other topics

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments1 person in discussion

There is a reference "Tanpınar, 2–3" which is incomplete. It was introduced in February 2016, but is missing the title, ISBN, even the complete name of the author (I suppose it's Ahmet Hamdi Tanpınar, but I cannot be sure).

There is a similar case for "Belge, 374" and "Belge, 389", also introduced in February 2016.

Whoever is able to complete these references, please do. Thanks!

--Ecelan (talk) 16:29, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

A second problem in this article is that there seems to be no clear separation between ottoman, turkish, turkic and azerbaijani literature. This difference/similitude should be more explicitly stated.
--Ecelan (talk) 08:59, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Azerbaijani literature. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:25, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Requesting wider attention

Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I felt article Islamic_literature is in bit of neglect so I added my note on talk page there, requesting to take note of Talk:Islamic_literature#Article_review. If possible requesting copy edit support. Suggestions for suitable reference sources at Talk:Islamic_literature is also welcome.

Posting message here too for neutrality sake


Thanks and greetings

Bookku (talk) 08:22, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Dangling refs

I have located some dangling refs and hidden them, replacing each with a citation needed tag. This has been done because we have references pointing to sources that are not recorded in the article. Please feel free to contact me if you need assistance fixing this. - Aussie Article Writer (talk)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Azerbaijani_literature/Archive_1&oldid=1170081747"