Talk:Baal Shem

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Super-good; Supra-good

What are super-good and supra-good deeds? Is this the same as the later statement that a Baal Shem is thought to perform miracles?Peter Chastain (talk) 06:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Eliyahu of Worms

The article mentions Eliyahu of Worms (the founder of the movement variously known as "Macheneh Yisrael", the "Nistarim", which i linked to Eliyahu Baal Shem. However, on second thought, i'm confused because that article claimes that Eliyahu Baal Shem was the son of Yosef Jospa, while he:אליהו לואנץ claimes that the founder of the "Nistarim" was the son of Moshe. Can anyone help?

-- -- -- 01:48, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know - I hope someone does! I had this difficulty when compiling Baalei Shem on Timeline List of Jewish Kabbalists, based on this page's listing of Baalei Shem. It seems that there may be an error: too many Baalei Shem from Worms in Germany. Perhaps the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia page on Baal Shem can correct a mistake, if there is one (it's linked from this page). I don't have time right now. Or, if not, perhaps Hebrew wikipedia should be trusted more than this page - I can't read it/verify a google translation. It may be more correct. If a mistake is detected, then it should also be corrected on the Timeline List Kabbalists page. April8 (talk) 21:29, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The aforementioned Jewish Encyclopedia page [1] mentions 2 Ba'ale Shem named Elijah: Elijah of Chelm and Elijah b. Moses Loans. The JE page on KHOLM (CHELM) [2] states that Elijah Ba'al Shem (of Chelm)'s full name was Elijah b. Judah Aaron. The question remains: Was there a third Baal Shem named Eliyahu, son of Yosef Jospa? So far, I haven't found any source for that. -- -- -- 02:01, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Hebrew wikipedia has 2 articles about another Ba'ale Shem, Elijah of Chelm. One is Elijah ben reb Aaron Judas ( about 1520 - 1583 ) with Golem's episode. The other is Elijah ben Moses Loans Ashkenazi ( 1564-1636 ), born in Frankfurt. GurenStar (talk) 08:48, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

I've found 2 sources that I think deal with all this - especially in their footnotes -, though I havn't got time to follow them up:

1. In Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism (1941) Gershom Scholem, the founder of Jewish mysticism academia, discusses Baalei Shem in the last 2 chapters (Sabbateanism and Hasidism). This gives the standard secular view that some of these Baal Shem figures/circles and specific Kabbalistic works before the rise of Hasidism were covertly heretical Sabbateanism (moderate Sabbateanism kept Halakha). In the chapter on Hasidism, he dissmisses as modern "fabrications", documents that were published by Lubavitch in 1935-9, claiming to document the origins of the Baal Shem Tov-Hasidism in a previously unknown secret society called the "Nistarim" (mentioned on these pages) headed by 1 Eliyahu Baal Shem, 2 Yoel Baal Shem, 3 Adam Baal Shem (Scholem gives his own identifications of these figures etc.) I think this is called the Herson geniza from Ruzhin, though that name is not used here, which surfaced in the time of the 5th Lubavitcher Rebbe. He studied these revelatory documents and concluded they were corrupted copies from original true sources. Scholem and modern academia dissmisses them as fabrications designed to show that the legendary biography of the Baal Shem Tov, Shivhei HaBesht (1814), is true in all its details. (Further academic rejection of the Herson geniza is given on a page in The Mystical Origins of Hasidism recent book. The Lubavitch tradition of the secret Nistarim-Baal Shem pre-Hasidic society is given in Lubavitcher Rabbi's Memoirs now in 3 volumes. Lubavitch historiographic acceptance of the Herson geniza is described in a footnote in The Great Maggid.)
2. For a religious historiography response to Scholem, discussion and disambiguation of the different Baalei Shem, rejection of them being covert Sabbateans, and acceptance of the Lubavitch tradition of the Nistarim society (the term Herson geniza is not mentioned, though he discusses and disagrees with Scholem's details): Aryeh Kaplan's Meditation and Kabbalah (chapter on the Baal Shem Tov). He reasons that the society of Nistarim kept its identity absolutely secret because of the persecutions against Practical Kabbalah in the wake of Sabbateanism, so that it was only revealed later in the Lubavitch tradition. Against Scholem's identification of particular Baalei Shem and Kabbalistic writings with Sabbateanism, he says correspondence etc was forged to discredit Practical Kabbalah by associating it with Sabbateanism. He also discusses alternative identifications of the mysterious Adam Baal Shem, who alone among the Baalei Shem, is only known from the Lubavitch traditions (and I think in Shivhei HaBesht).

NB. 2 recent academic books on the historical Baal Shem Tov, founder of Hasidism, may also be helpful. I think they take different views on the historical reliability of Shivhei HaBesht. I guess they reject the Herson geniza: Founder of Hasidism and The Besht. NB. I notice possibly that the term Baal Shem Tov may not be excusively used for Israel ben Eliezer, founder of Hasidism, but possibly as an alternative for Baal Shem in general?? However, Kaplan says "The Baal Shem" (NB. without Tov!) refers exclusively to Israel ben Eliezer. NB. Shivhei HaBesht has also been translated: In Praise of the Baal Shem Tov. April8 (talk) 18:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

• Update: Since no source has yet been found, I removed the link to Eliyahu Baal Shem. (Perhaps the next step should be to mark that article for deletion). -- -- -- 04:38, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
• New update: I found a source for Eliyahu Baal Shem of Worms, and added it to that article, as well as to this article. I removed "leader of the "Tzadikim Nistarim" movement" which is unsourced. -- -- -- 07:11, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Eliyahu Baal Shem of Worms

A tag has been placed on Eliyahu Baal Shem of Worms requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done for the following reason:

the sole source do not provide support for the content. eg. no birth date is given, and the source states he arrived in Worms in 1590, although the article states he died in 1583? [2]. The sole source is a fiction book.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, pages that meet certain criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. Chesdovi (talk) 01:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC)