Talk:Backdoor progression

Perfect Authentic Cadence

I believe that should be "Authentic Cadence" - any V-I progression. I'll change it unless someone else gets to it first; I need to learn more about redirects, since it links to Cadence (music). Special-T 20:16, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Figured it out - done. Special-T 20:27, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The Music Notation for Backdoor seems Wrong

The text says there is a iv chord preceding the bVII7, but a ii chord (D minor rather than F minor) is shown.

Also, I believe the (major) IV chord is not typical or necessary in this progression. It should be simply iv - bVII7 - I.

Rmkeller (talk) 08:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem confused as I was when I created and labeled the image. The article currently describes that the term backdoor refers to the use of one of two chords, iv⁷ or ♭VII⁷, resolving to the tonic. It then describes two typical ways in ♭VII⁷ is preceded.

The image currently shows a "backdoor ii-V" as described in the introduction, but preceded by a IV chord, somewhat unnecessarily but not inappropriately. I think I'll remove it for clarity and so that it matches the ii-V-I turnaround examples.. Hyacinth (talk) 00:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Image updated to just ii-♭VII7-I. Hyacinth (talk) 00:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I still think it is very misleading. The backdoor in jazz is iv - bVII7 - I. I've never seen it as ii instead of iv, and the figure is not representative. The ii does not add to the cadence, in my opinion. It sounds funny because there is no b6 as there would be with the iv. Rmkeller (talk) 04:51, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Rmkeller. The first two examples have errors. In the first example, this is not the standard backdoor progression. The standard is iv7-♭VII7-I, like you see very frequently in jazz standards. In the second example, the IV needs to be minor, your missing an A♭. It should be iv7, not F dominant.

BassHistory (talk) 11:40, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

If you disagree with a source then find a source which contradicts it. Hyacinth (talk) 11:51, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The backdoor progression is: iv7-♭VII7-I

Are we in agreement?BassHistory (talk) 11:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Plagal, not sub for V

Do people really consider this a sub for V? Are you guys sure you are reading the sources right? I have always heard that this was a sub for IV minor (minor plagal cadence). There is no leading tone.BassHistory (talk) 11:57, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

You may easily check all the sources yourself. Hyacinth (talk) 12:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

The phrase "instead of" does not necessarily mean "substitute for." It could mean "instead of what you would normally expect to encounter," and that is not the same as "can be substituted for." For example, it is correct to say, "sometimes, instead of a V7 chord proceeding a I chord, a bVII7 chord proceeds the I chord." That is different than saying "A bVII7 chord can act as a substitute for a V7 chord." It might seem like a subtle difference, but it is a very crucial one.BassHistory (talk) 13:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

If that book really says that bVII7 and #IIo7 are substitutes for V7, than we might want to consider consulting another source.BassHistory (talk) 13:24, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

You could consider any source. Hyacinth (talk) 11:02, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I have no source except for myself at this time, but the "backdoor progression" referred to within this article is in no way a plagal cadence. It functions as a minor third substitution for the standard ii-V-I. In the key of C it would be a ii-V/Eb. It is a substitution. One way to justify this as a substitution is to consider the octatonic diminished scale. All notes a minor third apart share the same scale, supporting minor third substitutions in any direction (for a G7 one could substitute Bb7 Db7 E7 and then precede it with its ii chord). I believe this explains the behaviour of these chords in context of their common use in bebop. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.19.91 (talk) 22:25, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources

"COLTRANE’S SUBSTITUTION TUNES" is a sub-par source. The analysis is flawed. I vote for its removal.BassHistory (talk) 14:11, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

You do not yet have any citations here with which to argue that the analysis is flawed. So at this point you do not have a very strong argument that it is so. Hyacinth (talk) 00:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a self-published source. I'm taking it out. Get better sources.BassHistory (talk) 05:48, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Chord symbols

What chord symbols should we use in this article? Hyacinth (talk) 21:55, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Explanation of the Derivation of the Progression Does Not Add Up

This is stated in the article:

"Backdoor" also refers to the unexpected modulation created through the substitution of the highly similar Imaj9 for iii7 (in C: CEGBD and EGBD) at the end of the ii-V turnaround to iii (ii/iii=iv, V/iii=♭VII, iii)

I'll use the key of F to explain. The third degree of F is A. The second degree of A is B and the fifth degree of A is E, so the backdoor progression would be Bm7-E7-Am7, right? The backdoor progression is defined as iv7-♭VII7-I(or iii7). The fourth degree of F is Bb and the flat 7th degree of F is Eb, so the progression would be Bbm7-Eb7-Am7, which doesn't match up to Bm7-E7-Am7. Is the error in my thought process or in the explanation in the article? --Markkozlov (talk) 04:09, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

confusing resolution

in this article it is stated that the progession resolves to iii-7 (because is has the same notes as Imaj9, C E G B D and E G B D), but the resolution of iv - bVII7 should be biii, e.g. f-7 - Bb7 - Eb and not E. Therefore the backdoor progression should be f#- - A7 - E, with this explanation. can someone help me how this is ment? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.217.253.10 (talk) 22:07, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Jerry Coker's Term

This is not a universal term. I am familiar with various jazz harmony texts, he is the only one to use the term in this way. The article should show this.BassHistory (talk) 06:04, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Stuff and nonsense

It seems pretty plain that what is happening here is that a major-minor seventh chord built on the flatted seventh degree (Bb7 in C major) is substituting for the borrowed minor iv chord (Fm in C major). This is obviously in no way equivalent or analogous to a ii-V7-I progression. The article should be entirely deleted. 66.188.122.14 (talk) 11:43, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear to me that two (complementary) things are happening here: firstly, iv, being a perfect 5th above bVII, is acting exactly analogously to ii with respect to V7 in your usual ii-V. Secondly, bVII7 is acting as a moderately hip "distant cousin" sub for V7, arising from moving V7 round a diminished seventh, i.e. up a minor 3rd. Do this twice and you get the tritone sub, bII7, and do it three times you get the "Turnaround" III7.

I consider this as pretty naturally arising, and, like I say, moderately hip way of modulating from IV to I, say in bar 6 of a twelve-bar. You get a bit of interest going from IV to iv, then you imagine you've started a "ii-V" so you drop down a perfect fifth to bVII7; then you get a little more interest resolving bVII7 to I.

It concerns me how confused this article and the discussion around it is/has become. As far as I can see, none of the images actually show a iv-bVII-I progression?????? 2.28.179.179 (talk) 17:56, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Actually I see the unsigned comment further up this talk page has the same idea as I have here (it wasn't me, honest!). Don't know if this is sufficient backing to change the article, tho, given the disagreement and confusion that surrounds it as it stands. 2.28.179.179 (talk) 18:03, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

We seem to have some confusion here.

Let's keep this in the key of C major for simplicity.

There is a very old progression in popular music that goes F-Fm-C. A more complete version is C-C7-F-Fmin-C.In both cases, you have the third of F leading to the third of Fm, to the fifth of C (A-Ab-G). The ear hears this chromatic motion as pulling down from F to C.

Now, here's the trick. Bb7 is just Fm6 with a Bb in the bass. So Bb7 is a sub for Fm6. And once you have a dominant 7th chord, you can always stick the related minor 7th chord in front of it. In this case, that would be Fm7-Bb7-C.

So the Bb7 chord is not a direct substitute for G7 at all. The best you can say is that it's another way to lead to the tonic chord, like the dominant 7th does.

If you look at enough old tunes, you'll see the songwriters cliche of C-C7-F-Fm-c quite often. They liked to have chromatic lines in the harmony, in this case C-Bb-A-Ab-G. Or if you use CMaj7, B-Bb-A-Ab-G. The idea for using Bb7 to get to CMaj comes from this old line cliche - it was just a way to get away from that same old gimmick. Like other line cliches, it became old-fashion sounding, so writers got away from using it

MarkinBoston (talk) 22:10, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Beatles references are inaccurate

There are no bVII7 chords in "In My Life" or "If I Fell," only iv chords. I suggest better examples of bVII7 in the Beatles catalogue would be the end of the verses of "For No One" and the outro of "Wild Honey Pie."

HarmonicParadox (talk) 21:35, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Negative harmony

Has anyone noted that this cadence (as bVII7 - iv6 - i) is the negative of the 2-5-1 (ii6 - V7 - I)? CPGACoast (talk) 16:53, 19 February 2022 (UTC)