Talk:Backpacker murders

Wolf Creek

I think the last paragraph, about the film Wolf Creek, could use refinement.

The link below is a movie review written by someone who spoke to the director at Sundance Film Festival. It states "He [being Director Greg Mclean] explained that the film was basically a composite of two or three absolutely true stories that took place in the outback and details all the way down to the killings, were based off of these cases (sidenote: these were referred to as the "Backpacker Murders" committed along the Hume Highway by Ivan Milat between 1989 and 1992)". The sidenote being a sidenote, written in retrospect, i think it is enough to say that all three stories (backpack murders, snowtown murders, peter falconio disappearance) do play a part in Wolf Creek.

Review: http://www.bloody-disgusting.com/review/460

I removed the following, because the source doesn't support the assertion. The source is a film review that says the movie is an insult to Milat's victims, but doesn't actually assert that the film is based on the murders. The Wolf Creek article doesn't say that the film is based on these murders either, but rather the Falconio murder. While the film may well be based on the murders, we need a reliable source that confirms that it actually was. Ashmoo (talk) 10:00, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The events depicted in the 2005 Australian horror film Wolf Creek were loosely based upon his crimes.

I think it's fair to call Milat an "inspiration" for the film Wolf Creek. The killer's hideout in the film is an abandoned mining facility with the name: "Navitalim Mining Co." Navitalim being Ivan Milat spelled backwards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.143.27.30 (talk) 20:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

References

Unreferenced Chat

Below moved out of main article: Directors have allegedly said that it was based on the Snowtown murders, not either of these. Many members of the public have expressed outrage at the backpacker murders being linked to the movie, because the backpacker murders could not have been conducted in the way described in the Wolf Creek movie. This is explained by the directors who have stated that it is about the Snowtown murders, not the backpacker murders. Media, however, have incorrectly linked the backpacker murders to Wolf Creek, and suggested that the profile of the psychopath in the movie is based on Ivan Milat. To make things even more complex, the description for the official Wolf Creek website at Yahoo says that the movie is "based on the true events of the 'Backpacker Murders'" and also states this on the back of the DVD case of the movie.

• Note: The director states that the killer in wolf creek is based on Milat and even some of the torture scenes: "Greg McLean: That’s real! That whole sequence is taken from the Milat case. When I read that I couldn’t believe it. That’s what he did to some of his victims, and that’s probably some of the worst stuff I’ve heard my whole life."

Format 19:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Where's the authority for the wild claim that he 'made love' to Savvas every night? Sounds like someone's trying to further demonise the demon. That sort of claim definitely needs some evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.19.119 (talk) 13:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC) In fact, given it was recently added, seems pointless and has no reference, I'll remove it. Put it back in if there's any evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.19.119 (talk) 13:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Missing third and fourth case

The first and second cases, and the fifth, sixth and seventh case are listed in this article, but the third and fourth case of James Gibson and Deborah Everitt are missing. I assume they were accidentally deleted. Does anyone have a copy of the correct text? 202.155.163.138 15:58, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Restored. DH85868993 13:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Suicide attempt?

Since when is cutting off your little finger, a suicide attempt? The heading of that should be changed to something a little less melodramatic. Any suggestions? SJ2571 (talk) 11:28, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I second that, although I have no suggestions for the heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jennifer8675309 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Like you I'm not sure what to call it but since the finger was placed in an envelope addressed to the High Court I suspect it has something to do with an appeal, so it at least seems in the right place on the page. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Another discovery

So, maybe someone wants to update the article. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/belanglo-bones-scattered-around-forest/story-e6frf7l6-1225913076090 --88.207.223.115 (talk) 18:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

No link to Milat, so what's to update? WWGB (talk) 23:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Is now- http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/ivan-milat-laughed-at-death-in-belanglo-forest/story-e6frf7l6-1225959921822 110.174.169.36 (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Psychology and Profiling of Milat

Possibly here or in an article on its own it would be appropriate to list some of the Psychologist and Profiler comments made about this case. They not only give an insight into Milat's mind but that of psychopaths in general, and are in the informative spirit of this encylopedia. 110.174.169.36 (talk) 22:30, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Discovery discussion inconsistency (Suggested rewrite)

From the First and Second cases:

"It was also possible that the bodies were of a young Victorian couple, Deborah Everist and James Gibson, who had been missing since leaving Frankston in 1989".

From the Third and Forth Cases:

"The presence of Gibson's body in Belanglo was a puzzle to investigators as his backpack and camera had previously been discovered by the side of the road at Galston Gorge, in the northern Sydney suburbs almost 100 kilometres (62 mi) to the north".

I agree that it would be "possible" that the first bodies were that of the Victorian couple, but only in the same sense that it could have "possibly" been anyone missing at this time. Given that the discovery of Gibson was puzzling at this location, I cannot see a direct motivation to have considered him as a potential candidate. I think the whole First and Second cases paragraph needs a rewrite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tillhouse (talk • contribs) 02:25, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Other missing persons

Came across a 2006 source that mentions Milat in relation to, or as a suspect for several other notable missing persons cases. i.e. Disappearance of Michelle Pope and Stephen Lapthorne from August 1978

Les Kennedy (May 22, 2006) "Ivan Milat a prime suspect again" Sydney Morning Herald, Retrieved 17 September 2015.

- 220 of ^Borg 05:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Possibly forward Backpacker murders

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Would it be better to forward this article to the Ivan Milat article? Especially given that this article also discusses the crimes of his relatives etc. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abacrombi (talk • contribs) 12:48, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

• (Agree) - There was a discussion about this a while ago on Talk:Ivan_Milat raised by @WWGB: but nothing really eventuated out of it. You're also right there is a lot of similar information on two separate articles but it's probably more appropriate to WP:Merge as has already occured for The Granny Killer aka John Wayne Glover so I can't see why we can't have one for Milat. I'm open to support/ridicule though but a decent discussion should at least be had. Mrbuskin (talk) 01:07, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Backpacker murders was the original article, and has existed since 2005. The Ivan Milat article was only expanded following his death in 2019. It was basically a cut-and-paste from the Backpacker murders article. I opposed that at the time due to the overwhelming duplication, but others argued that Milat must have his own article. I still think we only need one article, since Milat is synonymous with those crimes, and not notable for anything else. The question is: which article should remain, the crimes or the criminal? We could take the advice on Wikipedia:Notability (events)#People notable for only one event which provides "People known only in connection with one event should generally not have an article written about them. If the event is notable, then an article usually should be written about the event instead." Now, it might be argued that each murder was an event, but I am inclined to think we should favour the article on the Murders, and merge anything useful from the Milat article into that. (There won't be much unique content there, given the nature of its creation.) WWGB (talk) 06:41, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

@WWGB: I remember disagreeing with you back in 2019 re: separate articles and that was because I considered each murder an individual event that was just grouped together hence Wikipedia:Notability (events)#People notable for only one event wouldn't apply. There has also been a precedent set with John Wayne Glover, Kathleen Folbigg, and John Wayne Gacy who all have individual articles (which I admit I've edited some of them so am probably a bit bias). I think the problem is that we as a country see the backpacker murders as a single event that took place where as it was actually multiple events committed by the same person that we've just grouped together as 'The Backpacker Murders' -- if that makes any sense? Hence I favor merging and redirecting Backpacker murders to Ivan Milat. We need one strong article not two c-class ones. @Abacrombi: what's your thoughts? Care to expand on your original idea to redirect/merge? Mrbuskin (talk) 09:09, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

As someone with a personal memory of one of the victims, I would prefer the original approach from 2005 to continue for the following reasons: A) if we are to have an article on Wikipedia, then I think the original approach recognising the events as something significant rather than recognising the person is more suitable B) the murders were not “just grouped”. As the events unfolded the commonalities / similarities came through, and was then seen in the trial C) As someone who is not Australian, not the best person to comment - Australians I sure will have more insight, but wasn’t the cultural impact due to what happened to the victims, the remoteness, the search, trial etc. Other than this one series of events that have common threads, I suspect the person would not receive a Wikipedia page

Apologies if I have stepped over wiki rules / culture. Don’t often comment in Talk and any rare edits are only to remove Wikipedia “graffit” before a bot finds it.

I agree that the crimes of his relatives are perhaps not suited here, that would the only reason for a separate article on that group of related people. Jsmr1971 (talk) 00:02, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Merge to Backpacker murders keeping a section for Ivan Milat. The key merge reasons are overlap and WP:1E which in my view does apply here, as there is one set of serial murders. Klbrain (talk) 11:28, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Merge to Ivan Milat We normally have articles on serial killers, not their crimes. (unlike mass murderers).

Here's some examples;

Gary Ridgway; not "Green river murders"

Joseph James DeAngelo; not by any of the crimes/alias he used; by his proper name

David Berkowitz; not "Son of Sam murders"

Dennis Rader; Not "BTK murders"

Richard Ramirez; Not "Night stalker killings"

So there's no need to go beyond our usual for this article. (for further proof, compare the 10 other articles in Wikidata/in other languages under "Ivan Milat" and only 1 for backpacker murders, simple English).

In google books; "Ivan Milat" gets 2,960 results; [1] while "Backpacker murders" gets 2,450 [2].

In google NGrams, Ivan Milat has more by thousands. [3]

So not only would it be out of place to how we normally treat serial killers on Wiki, it goes against coverage in more proper sources. This criminal is also a household name in Aus, regularly featured in a variety of programs, some which just go by his name (Catching Milat); which alone shows that his name is expected to be known (alone). I believe this is enough to where Ivan Milat should be the primary article, as shown by 10 other wikis. (everyone which covers this case). GuzzyG (talk) 10:14, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

• Merge into Ivan Milat. "Backpacker murders" is a nickname for the killings. They were also nicknamed the "Belanglo Forest murders" particularly in New South Wales. Milat isn't notable for one event, he is notable for 4 separate events (that could have been individual articles) totalling 7 counts of murder. Taking a look at List of serial killers by number of victims, pseudonyms as article titles aren't common for titles with an identified killer, and collective names for serial murders are rare, possibly non-existent for cases with a confirmed killer. Milat's name is equally or more well known than the nicknames given to his collective murders, and his name is likely to become even more prominent as time goes on. Merging it into a single article named after him will not be too lengthy, his crimes and his person are inextricably linked together anyway, so better to be direct, concise and have the article under his name rather than a nickname for his crimes, leaving "backpacker murders" as a redirect. Macktheknifeau (talk) 17:27, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Leave it as is, shorten the Ivan page to be about Ivan, and not all the event details. Dave Rave (talk) 01:22, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.