Talk:Badr Jafar/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Badr Jafar. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Irrelevant reference removed

Latest comment: 8 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

I removed the irrelevant reference that has no direct connection to Badr in the article. [1] T1259 (talk) 11:33, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

You have been shown extensively how this is relevant to Badr. Before removing you must prove these references do not apply to him. You are behaving like the PR rep for Badr and his companies with your editing history. --Mawlidman (talk) 06:48, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Please stop with your insinuations and calling me a PR rep. That link does not have any information to Badr Jafar and that's why I removed it. T1259 (talk) 07:07, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Request for comment on family background of Jafar

Latest comment: 8 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

There is a clear consensus that the text added to the body of the article ("He is of Iraqi Shia background.") should be included in the article because it is relevant content about his familial background and upbringing. Editors were less certain about whether the quote in the second reference:
Both men [Ayad Allawi and Badr's father] are secular Shiite Muslims who have lived outside Iraq, which means they may have similar outlooks.
should be included. There is no consensus about whether that quote should be included or excluded.
Cunard (talk) 00:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should Jafar's family background be included as shown here. --Mawlidman (talk) 09:56, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes - The content is factual, neutral, and supported by multiple reliable sources. Background information is often covered in BLPs so I see no reason to exclude it. Meatsgains (talk) 23:45, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Thankyou very much. This is what i have been arguing for against several suspect editors. --Mawlidman (talk) 07:44, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, a certain amount of reference to familial background and upbringing is typical of BLPs, but editors have disagreed widely on how deep that coverage should be, under varying circumstances. If it is not directly relevant to his notability or otherwise covered consistently in reliable sources, it may not be appropriate for inclusion when discussing the man as an encyclopedic topic. That being said, the detail that he is of Iraqi descent and that his family are influential in Baghdad seems like relevant content to me, as it speaks to Jafar's path to where he is now. However, I am wondering if the quote found in the ref for the second source (speculatively linking his outlook to those of Allawi) is part of what is making your opposition uncomfortable here? I understand it is utilized just as a means of establishing the fact of Jafar's ethnic background, but that statement does seem loaded with all kinds of additional speculation. Snow ^{let's rap} 04:47, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

I concur with Snow Rise's assessment. What do the "suspect editors" have to say? FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 14:06, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shia origins revert

Latest comment: 8 years ago4 comments3 people in discussion

I am a representative of Badr Jadar. I have removed references to the fact that Badr Jafar is Shia. This is false and the references used to support it are misleading.

Reference 1 points to Jafar Dhia Jafar who is a distant relative of Badr
Reference 2 talks about Badr's father but makes an incorrect statement that suggests Badr's father Majid is Shia. This vague statement about Shia origins is unfortunately treated as a verifiable fact.

We have an OTRS ticket logged by Badr Jafar to have this information removed from Wikipedia, and it was removed on 28 May 2016. Please query Ticket number 2016050310022619 if anyone needs to verify the request that Badr Jafar has put through. Thank you OoBJ (talk) 23:07, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

As usual this is disruptive editing from multiple IPs linked to Mr Jafar. The above Request for comment on family background of Jafar section clearly permits and validates the edits you oppose. You mention an OTRS ticket, yet upon repeated requests you refuse to provide the link to the specific ticket. Lying to get your way on Wikipedia is not on. Your links to Mr Jafar are suspicious enough; however, your actions are completely unacceptable. Mawlidman (talk) 02:54, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Dear Mawlidman, I am writing on behalf of Badr Jafar and I make my links open and clear here. As per the Wikipedia policies on the Biography of Living persons, Mr Jafar has emailed Wikipedia to state that the information on his Wikipage is false. I have provided you with the ticket number referring to the email that was sent out by Mr Jafar. I understand that access to the ticketing system would be limited to a select few, and I cannot provide you with a link as it's not an open system. Should you wish to discuss the authenticity of the email, please contact the Volunteer Response Team. OoBJ (talk) 09:37, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Consensus does change. From WP:BLPN#Badr Jafar, it is clear this is a BLP issue, as the sources do not support the information cited fully, therefore they should be removed. Mdann52 (talk) 18:32, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Jafar Jafar

Latest comment: 7 years ago19 comments5 people in discussion

Hello, I have also removed references to Jafar Jafar as Badr's uncle. He is not Badr's uncle but a distant relative. Unfortunately, the source is incorrect and is falsely used as a source of verifiable truth. If required, Badr Jafar can email the OTRS to clarify the matter. Thank you! OoBJ (talk) 12:04, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

The challenged text in the article is:

His uncle, Jafar Jafar, is a nuclear physicist who lead Iraq's nuclear programme under Saddam Hussein.[2][3]

I browsed the two references and they make no clear connection between the subject of this article and the nuclear physicist. There are many mentions of who is a son/brother/father of who, and it looks as if "uncle" can be inferred from the text. However, the relations are the kind of detail that could easily be confused/wrong in references like these, so I find it quite plausible that "uncle" is not correct.

@OoBJ: Please email WP:OTRS and explain the situation, remembering to include the URL of the article. There could a delay of a few days before there is any response. After a response occurs, if removing the text again is reverted, the issue could be discussed at WP:BLPN for other opinions. Johnuniq (talk) 04:35, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello :@Johnuniq. Badr Jafar had emailed the OTRS team on 4 May 2016 to clarify that Jafar Dhia Jafar was not his uncle, but a distant relative. It was logged under the same ticket number as above. Are you, or anyone else that has access to OTRS, able to access the ticket so that the matter can be closed? If you can also remove the text referencing Jafar Dhia Jafar, that would be appreciated. OoBJ (talk) 12:16, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

I will ask for information. Meanwhile, following is a summary of the situation.

The nbcnews.com source does not mention Badr Jafar, so is not relevant for a claim about him.
The thenational.ae source includes these statements which allow the inference that Jafar Jafar is the uncle of Badr Jafar:
- The general manager of the Dubai-based Uruk Group is Jafar Jafar, a nuclear physicist and Hamid Jafar's younger brother, who headed Iraq's nuclear programme under Saddam Hussein.
- His [Hamid Jafar] sons Majid, 34, and Badr, 31, are the public faces of Crescent Petroleum.

Johnuniq (talk) 22:56, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi @Johnuniq. Have you heard back from the ORTS yet? The National link was used as reference to cite that Badr Jafar's uncle was Dhia Jafar. As mentioned earlier, this is an incorrect statement, and Badr Jafar had emailed OTRS to have that information removed. Can you please remove it from the page to comply with the Biography of Living Persons policy? Thank you OoBJ (talk) 11:23, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

@OoBJ: I asked about it here but got no response. I have just asked another person here. Let's give it a couple of days to see the reply. It is best to proceed slowly because the "uncle" can be inferred from the reference, although my opinion is that the reference is not reliable for that claim, and that the relationship, even if it were true, has not been remarked upon by a reliable source so it is not appropriate for an article here to include the claim. If you are aware of any published sources which contradict what the source says regarding relationships, please post it here. Otherwise, reply again in a week if nothing has happened. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: sorry, let this one slip my mind for a bit! The OTRS ticket does confirm what was said above. Mdann52 (talk) 07:45, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Per the above I have removed the "uncle" claim. Would anyone wanting to restore the text please address the following issues:

The article was discussed at WP:BLPN.
OTRS ticket 2016050310022619 states that Jafar Jafar is not the uncle of the subject of this article (see Mdann52's comment above).
The two references given for the "uncle" claim are unsatisfactory: one source does not mention the subject of this article, and the other does not mention "uncle" but makes only vague statements from which "uncle" may be inferred. The source is not reliable for details of family relationships, and could easily be mistaken particularly given that a lot of the names, in English, are similar. The source only mentions the relationships in a very by-the-way manner with no suggestion of fact checking (the article would have fact-checked the statements regarding business as that is its purpose). See my comment above for details of the sources.
Wikipedia should not be the only source which comments on a particular claimed family relationship. If no other source sees a reason to claim such an association, the text is WP:UNDUE. Indeed, adding the text could be regarded as a WP:SYNTH violation because it asserts that a particular person (whose stated role would be regarded unfavorably by many readers) is the uncle of the subject—the SYNTH comes from making assertions from which a reader should draw an inference about the subject.
Per WP:BLP, a poorly sourced claim of a contentious relationship should be removed, particularly given the OTRS report.

Johnuniq (talk) 06:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Absolute whitewash. The National article clearly says the following:

These days, Mr Jafar, 63, keeps a low public profile, preferring to leave the day-to-day running of his family's regional business empire to the next generation. His sons Majid, 34, and Badr, 31, are the public faces of Crescent Petroleum. and
The general manager of the Dubai-based Uruk Group is Jafar Jafar, a nuclear physicist and Hamid Jafar's younger brother, who headed Iraq's nuclear programme under Saddam Hussein.

There is no inference involved, as the other editors like to claim. It is clear from point one that the Badr that is mentioned in the news source is the same Badr in the wiki article and the son of the subject of the news source i.e. Hamid Jafar. It is then clear from the second point that Jafar Jafar is the brother of Hamid and is the same person of the wiki article Jafar Dhia Jafar. Jafar Dhia Jafar is not some distant relative, as some blatant liars are claiming. Let me summarize The National's relevance to this discussion: News source is about Hamid --> Says Hamid is the father of Badr (of the wiki article Badr Jafar) --> Says Hamid is the brother of Jafar Jafar (of the wiki article Jafar Dhia Jafar) --> If Jafar Jafar is Hamid's brother then he is absolutely and indisputably Badr's uncle.
There is no inference because there is zero conjecture or doubt involved in this statement that Badr's uncle is Jafar Jafar. I'm not sure what the agenda of OoBJ is in going to such lengths to suppress such clear info or why Johnuniq is his willing advocate but i know that this smacks of nothing other than censorship and i would like to report the actions of all those involved in supporting this egregious removal and abuse of authority. Mawlidman (talk) 10:31, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

It's true that the National source doesn't use the word "uncle", instead giving a formulation for which "uncle" is a perfectly reasonable paraphrase -- bother of Badr Jafar's father. If necessary, we could use wording that followed the source more precisely in this regard. I'm not sure how it would matter: if we say that Badr Jafar is the son of Jafar Jafar's brother, readers will naturally arrive at the implication that Jafar Jafar is Badr Jafar's uncle. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:47, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

But look at the whole source—it is a business article dealing with various enterprises and which only mentions the subject of this article in a very by-the-way fashion. The source is not reliable for a contested statement of fact regarding a family relationship—its area of expertise is business, not relationships. No publication other than Wikipedia mentions the claimed relationship. Johnuniq (talk) 11:17, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

You're hoping for a source which has "expertise in relationships"? What sort of source would that be?? I think that's a red herring... Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Precisely. Thankyou for seeing it for what it is. The National seems like a good enough source to me.
BTW: @ Johnuniq, why didn't you oppose the sentence in the wiki article He is the son of Hamid Jafar and the grandson of Dhiya Jafar, who was Iraq's development minister? You do realise it is sourced also from the same The National article? Mawlidman (talk) 12:50, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

I've removed the information that was added by Mawlidman about Jafar Jafar being Badr's uncle. As mentioned in the OTRS ticket, by Badr Jafar, Mr Jafar Jafar is a relative of Badr, but not Badr's direct uncle. The article, Magnate with more in sight than oil in his homeland, Iraq is incorrect, and is unfortunately used as gospel truth in this article when that is not the case. Mawlidman, can you please let us know your email id? I can get you an official email from the office of Badr Jafar to state that Jafar Jafar is not Badr's uncle and we can rest on this matter. From Wikipedia's policy on living persons: Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. In this case, just because a credible publisher published an article citing Jafar Jafar as Badr's uncle does not make it true. By logging an ORTS ticket, Badr Jafar has challenged this information and requested that this information be removed. My edit removing the text was done in accordance with the Wikipedia BLP policy. Mawlidman, Johniq and Nomoskedasticity: Do you require a second ORTS ticket to be logged by Badr Jafar to confirm this? OoBJ (talk) 10:34, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I want proof from someone other than you OoBJ. If you can show me a wiki admin or someone else in a high position that corroborates your OTRS ticket's approval then i will accept. Mawlidman (talk) 09:19, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately Mdann52 is being a bit coy when reporting the result of the ticket, but I set out the facts above in my comment at 27 November 2016. The line in question includes "(see Mdann52's comment above)" and that is referring to "The OTRS ticket does confirm what was said above." When read in context I am confident that is confirming that the ticket states "uncle" is not correct, although it would be nice if a clearer statement had been made. On the other hand, the one source allowing "uncle" to be inferred is similarly obscure. I would not want well-sourced and due information removed simply because the subject of an article denied a statement—Wikipedia depends on published sources. However, given the points in my 27 November 2016 comment the correct procedure would be to remove the uncle claim. By the way, WP:OTRS allows confirmation of Mdann52's status—it leads to meta:Special:MyLanguage/OTRS/Users. Johnuniq (talk) 09:44, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Johnuniq, i asked for an admin or someone else in a high position -- not an advocate of OoBJ throughout this process. The reply should be clear and decisive, rather than open to interpretation. If this is provided then i will have no reason to question and resist. Mawlidman (talk) 05:39, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

@Mawlidman: As an OTRS agent (not an admin, although admins will defer to us in this instance), I can confirm the ticket says that uncle is not correct. Mdann52 (talk) 11:39, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

@Mdann52: The question is did you accept what the ticket said? Was it approved as truthful? Mawlidman (talk) 22:12, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

I have checked the relevant OTRS Ticket#2016050310022619, and I can corroborate Mdann52's statement. Asav | Talk (OTRS) —Preceding undated comment added 14:40, 17 March 2017

Naomi Campbell

Latest comment: 7 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

As far as I can tell, almost all Biographies of Living People have a Personal life section, which discusses spouses, girl friends, boyfriends, hobbies, where someone lives, and any other information that is relevant to knowing more about the subject of the article. I do not believe the way the Personal life section was written was sensationalist or was biased for or against the subject, it was just a statement of fact that Badr Jafar used to date Naomi Campbell and Petra Němcová. The sources are reliable as well. Lets discuss if there is a better way of writing the information. 185.54.161.72 (talk) 07:47, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Please find better sources and address the concerns at Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#.22Personal_life.22_sections: That the material is inherently unencyclopedic per WP:SOAP and WP:NOTNEWS.

almost all Biographies of Living People have a Personal life section See WP:OSE. If you can find good articles with such a section that's been discussed, then we could consider following those examples.

The sources are reliable as well The sources are extremely poor, gossip pieces. I reviewed them all, and I believe they're suitable for tabloids and click-bait, but not for use in an encyclopedia.

Please gain consensus for inclusion of any material on the topic of Campbell and his dating per WP:BLPREQUESTRESTORE before making any further attempts at adding such material. Thanks. --Ronz (talk) 14:14, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Removed personal information

Latest comment: 5 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hello, I have removed personal information about his wife. Please discuss the relevance before adding. 02:00, 20 June 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by T12525 (talk • contribs)

In most cases, well-referenced information about a spouse is standard information in a Wikipedia biography. Why is this biography different from the usual standard? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:14, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

CoI and blanket removal of text

Latest comment: 3 years ago6 comments2 people in discussion

As this page was flagged as a COI, I have noticed that there has been a blanket removal of much of the content without any discussion. I hope we can come to a consensus on the best way forward. It would be appreciated that if text found foul of any Wikipedia's policies pointed out and links be provided for my knowledge. Else, its just an opinion of trigger happy-editors, which is dissapointing. It doesn't help Wikipedia at all as this is a collaborative environment.

Lets being with the changes to the lead in:

CURRENT
Badr Jafar (Arabic: بدر حميد جعفر‎) is an Emirati business executive and social entrepreneur based in the United Arab Emirates who leads a number of Emirati oil and gas businesses and conglomerates, including Crescent Enterprises, Crescent Petroleum, Pearl Petroleum and Gulftainer.[1]

OLD
Badr Jafar (Arabic: بدر حميد جعفر‎) is an Emirati business executive and social entrepreneur based in the United Arab Emirates. He is the Chief Executive Officer of Crescent Enterprises, a diversified global business with operations in several sectors including ports and logistics, power and engineering. Jafar is also the President of Crescent Enterprises' sister company Crescent Petroleum, a privately-owned oil and gas company headquartered in the United Arab Emirates. He is Chairman of Pearl Petroleum, a five-member international consortium for the development of natural gas assets in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, and Chairman of the Executive Board of Gulftainer, a global ports and logistics company.[1] He launched the Pearl Initiative in September 2010 at the United Nations, a private sector-led initiative to promote corporate governance, accountability and transparency within the Gulf region of the Middle East.[2][3] In 2011, Jafar was named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum[4][5][6] and is co-chair of the Forum's Family Business Community, a member of their Stewardship Boards on New Economy and Society, and on Digital Economy and New Value Creation. In May 2015, Badr Jafar was appointed by the United Nations Secretary General onto the High Level Panel on Humanitarian Financing, formed "to address the increasing gap between resources and financing for the world's ever-increasing humanitarian needs."[7][8] In September 2019, he was appointed to UNESCO’s Future of Education International Commission.[9] The Commission aims to re-examine and reimagine how knowledge and learning can contribute to humanity. He was named one of the 100 most powerful Arabs Arabian Business in 2019 and 2021.[10] [11]

These are all factual statements, nothing is false. If there are any issues with the tone, I would appreciate if this is called out so we can come to a consensus on what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. If it doesn't belong in the lead in, we can move it to the body. Also the simplification of the text "who leads several companies" is not factual. Being a Chairman of the Board and a CEO of a company are distinct roles. CEO's lead; Chairmen/Presidents - chair the board and serve in a non-executive role. T1512 (talk) 04:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Jafar serves as member of the Advisory Boards of Cambridge University Judge Business School, American University of Beirut[13] and American University of Sharjah. He is an appointed Foundation Fellow of Eton College.'

This text was moved to "Early Life and Education" - This has no relevance to the heading it's under. It's perplexing why this was done. T1512 (talk) 04:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Social initiatives"Ashoka launches Gulf platform for social entrepreneurship"

This heading change is perplexing. Leave it as "Social initiatives" is my thought. T1512 (talk) 04:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

There is a heading change from "Entrepreneurship" to "Career". Career is not an appropriate heading for the content that follows - if Entreprenureship is puffery, would you be able to suggest a better title? T1512 (talk) 04:05, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@T1512: I think we have to come to a conclusion about the seven (or more?) accounts you admit have been running over the past nine years, as well as the COI ramifications, before entertaining your edit requests. That should not take too long, maybe two or three days.--- Possibly (talk) 04:22, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I am keen to move forward. Would you be able to review the text for me? T1512 (talk) 04:29, 29 March 2021 (UTC)