Talk:Bais Yaakov

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Claim

"although some claim that the educational philosophy differs slightly from that of the original Bais Yaakov schools." This is a very vague statement. Who claims this, and how do "they" claim it differs? Jayjg ^(talk) 04:35, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sarah Schenirer

Is there any editor out there who has any information to start an article on Sarah Schenirer? I have been looking for any information on her life and career, and have not had much luck. Anyone who is able to, please initiate an article on Wiki. Thank you. 66.108.107.224 17:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

OR

Redaktor, what exactly is your problem with my edit? Half of the article is OR. If you delete my addition again, then I feel compelled to delete all other OR also. Provide references for anything you want to stay in this article. --Rabbeinu 13:02, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Rename

I have renamed the article to "Beis Yaakov" with an "e" instead of an "a", because

1. "Beis Yaakov" is the correct spelling according to Hebrew grammar, while "Bais Yaakov" is simply incorrect in this case. This is called "smichut" in Hebrew grammar.
2. A Google search shows that "Beis Yaakov" is almost four times as widespread as "Bais Yaakov". Debresser (talk) 01:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Note that the two interwiki's using Latin alphabet also write an "e". Debresser (talk) 02:00, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the spelling change is misguided. Current google search puts "Bais Yaakov" with about 8,000 more hits if you enclose the words in quotation marks, and schools in the English-speaking world generally spell it "Bais." The Bais Yaakov convention spells it Bais, for example. Bais vs. Beis is phonetics and has nothing to do with smichut; are you pronouncing "Bais" as "Bayis" in your head, perhaps? 71.141.241.147 (talk) 02:00, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. So that makes "two votes" against Debresser's "one" -- he loses by his own "rules" and this article will be moved back to its original long-standing name. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 07:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Bais Yaakov or Beis Yaakov

Looking over this arbitrary change by Debresser, from Bais Yaakov (with an "a" in "Bais") to Beis Yaakov (with an "e" in "Beis") it is appalling that he can over-ride the WP:CONSENSUS that is evident in this article's edit history that shows that since this article's creation in 13 December 2004 [1], (until it was changed by Debresser ACTING ALONE without any attempt at drawing in discussion, even at WP:TALKJUDAISM) in 2009, that lasting for 5 (yes, FIVE) years, with over 40 (yes FORTY) editors (excluding anonymous edits) having contributed over the years, not one saw fit to make a change to the name alone and thereby created an enormous WP:CONSENSUS for the original spelling. The article's name is not just guided by the invocation of an obscure "rule" from Hebrew (that is not the point here) but it defies common usage where in the largest English-language Orthodox community that is in the USA, not a single school uses the "Beis Yaakov" spelling and almost all use "Bais Yaakov" (with an "a"). In the UK some schools do use the "Beis Yaakov" name but it was always secondary in this article. Therefore, the change should never have been made. The point may be relatively minor, but when a serious topic is concerned that concerns Orthodox Judaism, one editor acting as a "loan ranger" cannot and must not and should not act as the chief judge, jury and lord high executioner. Otherwise what's to stop him from deciding tomorrow that the "correct" version should be Beis Yaacov (as some spell it with a "c") or Bet Ya'akov or Beit Yaakov (in modern Hebrew), or Beth Jacob (the truly correct English name) etc, just to absurdly and dramatically "prove" that he can change names with all sorts of "discoveries" and "rationales" all of his own based on obscure "grammatical" rules. This pattern of behavior defies the simple logic and need of if it ain't broke, don't fix it. See a similar situation now being discussed at Talk:Musar movement#Musar or Mussar. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 07:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

If you don't know Hebrew grammar you should be ashamed, rather than advertise the fact. Look up smichut (status constructus) in a grammar book. And certainly you should not mix into discussions if you don't know the subject matter. Debresser (talk) 08:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Debresser: Point by point:

1. What, are you a "maskil" now?
2. Insults and violations of WP:NPA; WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL are not "substitutes" for logical and rational arguments.
3. Yiddish speakers actually pronounce it Bais Yainkov!
4. So "smichut" has nothing to do with the choices of appropriate names for Wikipedia ARTICLES that are not exercises in grammar but must reflect the names that are functional and used, such as short nicknames Jimmy Carter (and NOT James Earl Carter) or with Bill Clinton (it's not William Jefferson Clinton) so it's a pure red herring by you woven into an insult.
5. Do you mean to say that over 40 editors over 5 years were also "guilty" in your books?
6. You may not know it, or simply don't care about the facts, but hundreds of Bais Yaakov's in the USA, the majority, do not agree with your wild prejudices.
7. Take a look at these massive examples: (1) http://www.baisyaakov.net/ the Bais Yaakov of Baltimore; (2) Bais Yaakov of 18th Ave, Brooklyn; (3) Seminar L'moros Bais Yaakov, Brooklyn; (4) Masores Bais Yaakov, Brooklyn; (5) Beth Jacob Of Boro Park (this one actually calls itself Beth Jacob, it's the one of the biggest); (6) Machon Bais Yaakov, Brooklyn (big school); (7) Bais Yaakov Academy, Brooklyn, one of the biggest); (8) Lev Bais Yaakov, Brooklyn; (9) Bais Yaakov D'Rav Meir, Brooklyn; (10) Camp Basi Yaakov, Catskills; (11) Joan Dachs Bais Yaakov, Chicago; (12) Bais Yaakov Academy, Queens NY; (13) Bnos Bais Yaakov, Far Rockaway, NY; (14) Reenas Bais Yaakov, New Jersey; (15) Bais Yaakov School for Girls, Los Angeles, CA; (16) Bais Yaakov ~ Beth Jacob High School of Denver, Colorado; (17) Esther Miller Bais Yaakov, St. Louis, MO; etc etc etc
8. EVEN Satmar Hasidic schools are called by the name BAIS: (1) Bais Rochel School, Monroe NY (over 3000 students); (2) Bais Rochel School, Lakewood, NJ; (3) Bais Rochel School, Brooklyn; etc etc etc
9. Others are called Bais Kaila Torah Preparatory High School, Lakewood, NJ; etc etc etc.
10. The point is VERY clear, the hundreds of rabbis at these Bais Yaakov schools in the USA, do not have any problems with Bais Yaakov!
11. While in Europe and Israel, some do use the other name of Beis Yaakov that you prefer.
12. The key difference here is not about "dikduk" but about American and British English spelling differences and there are clear Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English that apply to this transliteration of a word.
13. Debresser has a Eurocentric approach that clashes with the American one and he is often not conscious of it and acts as if he need not worry about it.
14. But my objection is one of procedure and precedent that where there should have remained a consistent English spelling in place especially widely-used by hundreds of institutions with tens of thousands of students, either American or British, it must not be tampered with, without serious consensus building!
15. Pity that this has to be done now under such acrimonious circumstances for such a worthy topic. IZAK (talk) 13:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

IZAK: Point by point:

1. No, I am not a maskil. I just am an educated Jew. If you aren't, don't argue.
2. Insults and violations of WP:NPA; WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL are not "substitutes" for logical and rational arguments.
3. Yiddish speakers actually pronounce it Beis Yainkov!

etc. Thanks, Debresser (talk) 17:29, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Debresser: You only answered 3 points, what about the other 12? But to answer your points: (1) You may be "educated" but judging from your edits, you know very little about the world's largest English-speaking Torah communities, and they are in North America, where you can be assured, absolutely all rabbis, rebbetzins, publications and institutions spell it as "Bais Yaakov." I have in front of me this week's weekend English Yated Ne'eman (United States) and Hamodia published in New York, where the world's hugest English speaking communities live and write, and there are about twenty ads from different Bais Yaakovs, spelled only as "Bais Yaakov ___ ___" advertising upcoming entrance exams. (2) Just see how hypocritical you are, you start off by accusing me of not being an educated Jew like you, and of "arguing" -- and I am not "arguing" that is something you do, I try to DISCUSS -- and then you urge me to abide by the very rules you violate all the time (certainly with me, and I can and have proven it over and over again), but this is very typical of you. (3) Yiddish speakers in America, when speaking and writing English, use the word "Bais Yaakov" only. IZAK (talk) 05:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed name Bais Yaakov vs Beis Yaakov

Name should be Bais Yaakov :

• Support, for the reasons cited above, this was always the accepted name of the article. IZAK (talk) 07:28, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support per IZAK's argument that this is the preferred spelling among American schools. It's true that the tzeirei is usually translated as "ei" (e.g. Beis Hamikdash), but since we're not the Hebrew Wikipedia, we will never find consistency across the board (see all the Breslov websites that call their movement Breslev). As with all English articles, we'll add "also spelled Beis Yaakov" to the lead, and shalom al Yisrael. Yoninah (talk) 11:07, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME, which is the only argument that really matters on Wikipedia. Google test proves that "Bais Yaakov" is the more common spelling. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:13, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Name should be Beis Yaakov :

• Support 1. In this case this is not a matter of spelling. "Bais" is simply incorrect grammatically, as explained above. 2. The way it was written for some years is of no consequence. Simply nobody payed attention. Actually, when looking in other articles, both spellings were in use here on Wikipedia. 3. Both "bais" and "beis" are more or less equally in use in English. Debresser (talk) 08:26, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

• Support A tseire (the vowel in question) is usually rendered 'ei'. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew).--Redaktor (talk) 11:25, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Hi Redaktor: While that may be true sometimes, it is not used or applied in the USA by the majority for the names of Bais Yaakov schools. Them's the facts. IZAK (talk)
• Support Beis is correct. That various American institutions spell it wrong is of no consequence to us. The incorrect spelling can be used for individual/American mosdos. Chesdovi (talk) 14:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Hi Chesdovi: They are not "individual/American mosdos", they are essentially all the American mosdos. And if they are the unquestionable majority, the article must reflect that, and could be called that too if need be, to a title like Bais Yaakov schools indicating the preferred name the vast majority has chosen to call themselves in modern times in modern day English, that they obviously do not regard as "incorrect" (hundreds of such schools would not wish to be called "incorrectly" named.) IZAK (talk) 06:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Hundreds of schools are spelt incorrectly because the likes of Satmar and other similar mosdos haven't the foggiest on english grammatical rules. Wikipedia should be setting the standard, not giving in to it. Chesdovi (talk) 11:45, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Hi Chesdovi: Excuse me but the vast majority of Bais Yaakov schools in Brooklyn and the USA are not affiliated with Satmar in any way, and the ones I cited here were all NON-Satmar English-language Bais Yaakovs, and I threw in that Satmar (the largest group of Hasidim in the USA) also spell their schools with a "Bais", and no need to attack them, they are not the point of the debate here. Bottom line, "Bais" is universally used in North America by hundreds of Bais Yaakovs with tens of thousands of students headed by hundreds of rabbis who chose the names deliberately, where the largest English-speaking Haredi communities live, while "Beis" is used by some schools in the much smaller Haredi communities in England and Europe and a few in Israel (where they don't care how things are spellled in English in any case, since they live by Hebrew purely). Thanks, IZAK (talk) 09:17, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

IZAK, why can't you just let people say their say. You don't have to reply to everybody who disagrees with you. Debresser (talk) 17:30, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Debresser: This is the way it works on Wikipedia, and that is how discussions unfold and ideas are exchanged. It's a lot better than your arbitrary sneaky changes behind people's backs and then telling people to shut up if they don't agree with your volatile moves. Hypocrisy at work again and you need to stop it. IZAK (talk) 05:21, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

• Note: Unfortunately, User Chesdovi (talk · contribs) has just been blocked for one month with additional editing restrictions for disruptive editing, per ANI: Mass changes at Israeli settlement articles. It is disappointing to see this. IZAK (talk) 10:07, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

bais yaakov

it's absolute rdiculous to call to this article 'bais yaakov'. as an israeli and language-speaking of Hebrow, it is simple mistake. in the origin verse on the bible it is spelled 'beit yaakov', and in Ashkenazi Hebrew it is Beis. you can see in the Hebrow version Of this article.

אם יש פה מישהו שדובר עברית:

שם הערך כפי שהוא עכשיו הוא פשוט חוסר הבנה או ידיעה של כללי הדקדוק העבריים.

נכון ששם העצם המקורי הוא 'בית' שמאוית כ-bait

אבל בסמיכות לשם עצם אחר זה הופך להיות beit.

זה מופיע ככה בתנ"ך ובכל מקום אחר אפשרי.

Rekp (talk) 08:21, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

You're right in Hebrew, but in America, Bais Yaakov schools don't agree with you. Yoninah (talk) 11:51, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

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