Talk:Bali language (DRC)

Requested move 7 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 03:48, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

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• Bali language (DRC) → Bali language (Democratic Republic of the Congo)
• Mbo language (Congo) → Mbo language (Democratic Republic of the Congo)
• Koyo language (Congo) → Koyo language (Republic of the Congo)
• Lele language (Bantu) → Lele language (Democratic Republic of the Congo)
• Sanga language (Bantu) → Sanga language (Democratic Republic of the Congo)

– There is an inconsistency with how we disambiguate languages from the Democratic Republic of Congo and the Republic of Congo. The ISO-3 registry disambiguates these as proposed, see iso639-3:bcp, iso639-3:zmw, iso639-3:lel, iso639-3:sng. Koyo is the only one not disambiguated in the registry but it should be consistent with the others. Most language articles on Wikipedia are disambiguated with the country name which will bring this WP:CONSISTENT with the others. Gonnym (talk) 11:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

• The country is called "Democratic Republic of Congo" in ISO-3, whereas on Wikipedia it is found under its official name, Democratic Republic of the Congo. (Same for Republic of the Congo.) I'm mentioning this because it may be confusing to some readers if these titles don't match the main country articles. BegbertBiggs (talk) 12:42, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Good catch. I don't have a strong preference, but maybe better to be consistent with how Wikipedia titles that name. --Gonnym (talk) 12:50, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
    • If these are moved, the disambiguator should match the format of the main Wikipedia article title. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
      • Updated the nom with the correct titles. --Gonnym (talk) 10:40, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
• Comment It makes a for a rather long title - the disambiguator being much longer than the distinctive part of title itself! It would be preferable if it could be more concise, e.g. "DR Congo" for one and "Congo" for the other. That is used already in other titles (e.g. DR Congo national football team and Congo national football team). Walrasiad (talk) 10:00, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
  • I'd assume (haven't checked those articles), that the titles chosen "DR Congo" and "Congo" are the titles that reliable sources and FIFA are using. I'd be very surprised if "DR Congo" was a wiki made name. --Gonnym (talk) 10:12, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
  • Also, there are enough examples of using the full name National Assembly (Democratic Republic of the Congo), Senate (Democratic Republic of the Congo), Senate (Republic of the Congo). --Gonnym (talk) 14:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Mm. Just looking around FIFA, seems like they prefer "Congo DR" (enters alphabetical lists easier). But "DR Congo" is a commonly used abbreviation (kinda like "UK"), and we use it on Wikipedia quite a bit. It's just a suggestion. Visually, the critical part of "Mbo" seems to get a little lost in such a long title. And in a visual scan my eyes glaze over the subtle difference between "Democratic Republic of the Congo" and "Republic of the Congo" which they might not in a more compact title. Walrasiad (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

I guess that is another question which should be answered somewhere else. Currently there are 4 articles on en.wiki that disambiguate with "(DR Congo)", 28 with "(Democratic Republic of the Congo)" and 18 with "(Congo)" (which is ambiguous). The majority of uses is the full country name so this should be WP:CONSISTENT with that instead of with the 4 articles that break with it. If the desire is for "DR Congo" to be the dab, it should probably involve a wider discussion. --Gonnym (talk) 16:50, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Not exactly convinced, as we run against WP:CONCISE here. Such discussions have happened intermittently, and I don't think you are going to achieve consistency. A little judgment might be in order. Unlike articles about official organs like a Senate or generic topics like Transportation, where the distinctive element being emphasized is the state, the priority here is Mbo, and not the state. And Mbo, a very short term, is getting swamped by a mere disambiguator. "Mbo language (DR Congo)" and "Koyo language (Congo)" are more concise, sufficient and less distracting. Nothing is really being gained by adding a very long country name. Walrasiad (talk) 17:19, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Not exactly convinced by what? There are 4 articles using DR Congo and 28 using the full name. That's a clear indication of what the consistent style in use is. Want non-political entities? Sumba (Democratic Republic of the Congo), National Road No. 2 (Democratic Republic of the Congo). The language is the same thing, it's something that is in the state area. Also, as I've stated above, that is what the sources use to disambiguate and not something that is made up for wiki's sake. --Gonnym (talk) 21:14, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Not convinced that this is the best solution. I was hoping to hear more positive arguments. I am withholding my !vote for now, but leaning against. Walrasiad (talk) 22:39, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

• Is there anything wrong with the disambiguator Congo? Each of the languages is spoken in one of the countries, and there's no language with the same name that's spoken in the other, so there's no need to use a more specific disambiguator. I really don't see the case for consistency: among both languages of the DRC and language more broadly you can see two more or less equally common types of disambiguators: genealogical (indicating the language family, like "Bantu"), and geographical (indicating a region, which may or may not be a country). Of the dozen or so articles about languages of Congo that use disambiguators, only one has the country name – Bali language (DRC), but that's probably not a good choice as there appears to be another, more obscure, language with the same name that's presumably spoken in the same country (see the redirect Bali (Democratic Republic of Congo, Bandundu)). – Uanfala (talk) 22:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose moving Mbo language (Congo). It already has a perfectly good disambiguator, see the DAB at Mbo language. But much other work needed! Suspect that the others may be more complex than it appears as well. Andrewa (talk) 22:16, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - propose that these all move to use (Congo). These aren't something inherently tied to the state. Unless there is a name conflict with something in or from the other Congo, I don't see the point of specifying DRC or ROC. --Khajidha (talk) 15:29, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.