Talk:Ballot collecting

Policy outside of the United States

Is ballot collection used in other countries? Why is there only a section "Policy in US", it begs another section showing where else it is used.

This article is complete trash as stands

This article is a stain on Wikipedia. This is a manufactured Fox news/Breitbart propaganda concept being just legitimized without question. This article really ought to be deleted unless someone has the energy to rewrite it from scratch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.11.50 (talk) 01:52, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

This article was very informative to me as this subject is debated but rarely explained. Jolun (talk) 12:49, 27 Nov 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jolun101 (talk • contribs)

USA Voter Fraud Conspiracy Theories / NPOV Adherence

The term "Ballot Harvesting" is applied to the collection & poll delivery of absentee ballots.

However, as of 2019-06-01 anyhow, the term is used by proponents of a conspiracy theory that massive voter fraud occurred during recent state and federal elections especially in California.

The article will need revision including a section on the conspiracy theory & rewriting of current text to eliminate misrepresentation of citations.

The laws related to Absentee_ballot#United_Statess and Postal_voting#United_States are likely better-listed in the existing articles; in this case, the article for "Ballot Harvesting" should probably present disambiguation, between these existing articles & 2018_United_States_elections#Ballot_controversies_and_recounts.

Harlequence (talk) 22:49, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Is there a difference between vote harvesting and ballot harvesting? FloridaArmy (talk) 00:04, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Cursory search indicates term the former being recently replaced with term the latter in recent proponency of same voter fraud conspiracy theory.

Harlequence (talk) 00:45, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

What conspiracy theory are you referring to? Should it be added to the article? FloridaArmy (talk) 01:15, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

What - Multiple. Should - Unsure. Please do excuse tardy reply; subject proving difficult to research.

Added "expert" template. A proper "Definition" section might curtail need.

Does User:FloridaArmy reckon the definition is circa "fraud by ballot collectors" or rather circa "ballot collection"? Thank you,

Harlequence (talk) 03:32, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

If it's illegal then it's "fraudulent". As some of the cited stories note, when people are involved in collecting and submitting ballots it creates opportunities for fraud. There are also arguments that due to mobility limitations etc. some voters benefit from assistance. I would think mailing a ballot in shouldn't be an unreasonable hurdle, but there are rules in some states about under what circumstances absentee mail in ballots are accepted.

I agree with the comment below that the article is due for expansion. What are the rules and nomenclature in other countries? As every U.S. State makes its own election rules there is quite a bit of variability to be sure. FloridaArmy (talk) 03:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Do the words "selective ballot collection" seem to describe "ballot harvesting" to you? All available sourced content (USA) seems to use "ballot harvesting" as ~ actively attempting to collect/deliver only ballots the collector thinks can be predicted. Content without sourcing (a-neutral & unverifiable news websites, etc) sometimes uses same "ballot harvesting" to imply something more nefarious (see citation from 'realclear' entitled 'true confessions of...' which contains neither confession or evidence, but does contain accusation and contested legal charge of voter fraud through some manner of ballot manipulation).

Great idea, to pursue rules and nomenclature outside-USA/parallel. Hoping this course of research will lead to understanding and better sourcing.

Harlequence (talk) 04:16, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion

Another option from above is speedy deletion.

As is, this is a very difficult article to salvage; most notably, the current content assumes for a negative, and perhaps criminal, connotation to the term it ostensibly attempts to define.

However, the term is defined only as the collection of absentee/mail ballots, a legal practice that is not credibly associated with a single instance of voter fraud.

Harlequence (talk) 23:00, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

For if and until, I've added WP:NPOV template to article.

Harlequence (talk) 01:06, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Not a speedy deletion candidate but you can take it to an Articles for Deletion discussion. FloridaArmy (talk) 01:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

• This article may benefit from expansion. From [1], According to officials in Arizona, there are similar laws in 26 other states and nearly identical ones in “14 other states that make mass ballot collection in some form a felony.” I wouldn't mind renaming this article to "Ballot collecting" but that is not the WP:COMMONNAME here. wumbolo ^^^ 12:47, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Expansion could include definition. The difference between the-collection-of-absentee-ballots and whatever-this-is seems unclear. Added expert-needed template.

Harlequence (talk) 03:05, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Task list

After a few edits, I've come up with a task list at the end of 2019:

• Find an expert to learn what information needs to be included and excluded; we need to specify the problem and perhaps the type of expert to speed up the process.
• Expand citations; in particular, we need to add archive links and access dates.
• Remove/source unsourced material.
• Expand information from known sources and more.
• Divide into sections and create lead.
• Add see also and external links.

– UnnamedUser (talk; contribs) 03:01, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Edit war

@Jdillonf: you have repeatedly added an unsourced paragraph to the article. You have used the same edit summary every time and not offered to communicate. We should be able to discuss. – UnnamedUser (talk; contribs) 21:55, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the section because there was no response in a week. Similar continued behavior will lead to a more visible report to the community. – UnnamedUser (talk; contribs) 20:45, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

@Jdillonf: Please communicate. This is the last time I will try to communicate with you on the talk page before I will report at WP:ANI. – UnnamedUser (talk; contribs) 17:40, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Lack of historical context

This article is useless if only because it does not address the abuses and corruption in the past where ballot collection was implemented on the behalf of corrupt political organizations. This information can be readily and easily found in looking up info regarding Tammany Hall and the political machine in Chicago. While promoting the pro view as a threat in voter disfranchisement equal weight should be given to the concerns in light of historical events throughout the nation's history when this action was abused. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.233.44 (talk) 16:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Evidence?

Is it worth mentioning that--as least as of 2020--there has been only one criminal case in the United States specifically tied to ballot collecting? (In North Carolina, where all ballot collecting is illegal, McCrae Dowless, a political operative working for Republican candidate Mark Harris in the 2018 election, was indicted on charges that he took absentee ballots and destroyed or changed them.) Or would that violate WP:NPOV? --Shadow (talk) 19:15, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

The North Carolina example doesn't seem like an NPOV issue to me. However, the statistic about only one ballot collection/harvesting criminal case is wrong or out of date. There's a well-publicized criminal case in Texas where the person was charged in 2021. There may be other cases too -- state of Texas alone has about 500 pending election fraud charges against some 40+ criminal defendants although I don't know if they're broken down somewhere by sub-type of election fraud.

My suggestion is feel free to add the specific North Carolina example, but more research would be needed on total number of ballot collecting/harvesting criminal cases because that source is wrong or out of date. JArthur1984 (talk) 16:09, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I was just back on the page and saw your comment. I don’t know whether WP regards Heritage.org as a PR:RS but there is this:
https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=All&year=2020&case_type=All&fraud_type=All
There is also this: https://www.azag.gov/press-release/guillermina-fuentes-enters-guilty-plea-yuma-county-ballot-harvesting-case
And this: https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/ag-paxton-san-antonio-election-fraudster-arrested-widespread-vote-harvesting-and-fraud
There’s this: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/pennsylvania-republican-staffers-fired-ballot-harvesting-1352173/
Further the is this: https://kansasreflector.com/2021/03/16/kansas-ballot-harvesting-bill-raises-concerns-of-voter-suppression-among-voting-rights-advocates/
There’s this article dating from before the Election which is interesting: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2020/02/12/harvesting-votes-to-win-in-2020/
I don’t know what the current state of the article is or whether any of these links provide for material that should be included just throwing them out there. 71.190.233.44 (talk) 23:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

The Heritage Foundation website is good, it's a mainstream think tank with a specific political standpoint (conservative). I think any issues would be addressed with the phrasing, "According to conservative think tank Heritage Foundation..." This database is a bit tricky for this subject because there's not a specific "ballot harvesting" sub category to sort through -- ballot harvesting is incorporated in the category Heritage defines as absentee ballot fraud, but Heritage's description of the category includes other non-ballot harvesting absentee ballot fraud as well.

The Texas article is interesting too and I even tried to make a article for the Texas case mentioned, but the separate article got deleted because the overwhelming consensus was the political consultant involved was notable only for one reason. I've put a couple of sentences about it in the Texas subsection of this article though and looking back this does seem to be the better place for it. JArthur1984 (talk) 16:09, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Glad to be of help! :-) 71.190.233.44 (talk) 18:22, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

References