Talk:Bandini Automobili

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Bandini book: Bandini (life and cars of Ilario Bandini tkt OTRS 2006120410015872 http://www.ilariobandini.it%7Ctkt OTRS 2006113010007191

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Journey to Babel

(copied from here)

"As for Sig Bandini's putative fame, I never heard of him before. I do know a bit about racing, & a bit about cars; between them, I can cope with most of what was there. I also think the writer is giving him too much credit, but that could be Italian chauvinism at work in the original source."

"Looking at your recent changes, I like "trusted team"; I think that's closer to what was really going on, w "Papa Bandini" & his Merry Men. I think there's still confusion over the bodywork (was it still Motto, or did they drop him, or what?). I might quibble over the engine "adopting" a new head; maybe I was unclear it's the company adopting it, & if so, I'll fix it. There's a bit of "control freak" in Bandini that seems to run in guys who form their own car companies"

Thanks for the repairs here. That translation was making me cringe. FYI, I suspect "turner" was a spelling error for "tuner". BTW, there's a whole bunch more linked out from Bandini Automobili that could use help... TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 00:39, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It's a nice job to get into. And whereas with 'real life' one usually has a time dead line for these jobs, with wikipedia you can worry away at it in your own time until it makes sense. Keep an eye on me, though: I'm not an expert especially on suspension components and some of the things that go on under the hood / bonnet! The other thing, with this type of text, is that the Italian one may have been taken from somewhere else and modified (a bit) or not and so on and so on and ... so in the end you may get versions of the same text (or bits of it) turning up on line several times in several different web sites. Ditto English translations thereof. Specially where (as here) there is most likely a shortage, even in Italian, of 'original' research / compilation.

The way it ends up in wikipedia, the 'turner' word is 'tornitore'. My Italian isn't that good, but I'm pretty sure that's the noun (ie 'turner') from the verb 'tournare' which (though I may have mis-spelled it here) means 'to turn'. When you get lost in Italy and ask the way, one of the words you pick out is 'tornare' which in that context tends to mean that you must turn around (and go back the way you came...) So it is a word I've come across!

I do not know if people spoke about 'tuning' (of vehicle engines) in the 1930s, though no doubt that's a part of what our friend would have got up to at his Forli workshop. But machining engine parts on a lathe would, I imagine, have been the sort of basic job that would get delegated to a competent apprentice mechanic fairly early on in his career. In Europe and US they don't often let non-employee members of the human race into the car plants these days, apart from a couple of carefully selected assembly points, and presumably machining is all done inside robot controlled black boxes. But if you've ever visited a place where they assembly / repair cars in one of the other continents where wages are lower - even Turkey which is 'sort of' Europe (though that's a huge political discussion outside of where we need to go here) you get a better idea of 'turning' - ie machining components on a lathe - as pretty fundamental to some of the things folks do when making and fixing vehicles. Well, that's my understanding, anyway, and I think I felt sort of endorsed by the wiki entry on 'turning' to which I entered a link. Though the turning entry does need input from an expert which ain't me. Trouble is, folks who are handy in a workshop aren't generally the same folks as the ones who are happy banging away entering prose to keyboards.

I did notice already there are several other Bandini entries needing attention. It's super there are so many, really, especially for Bandini enthusiasts. But you (if it was you) did a neat thing by highlighting the matter on the auto project page. I think there are several of us who started by thinking someone else will do it better and then came back having decided that ... maybe they wouldn't. And actually, though there are several frequent contributors to wiki entries in English who have mother tongue German, mother tongue Italian is less easy to find among the regular English wiki automobile contributors (The Italian guy who has 'done' in Italian a lot of interesting entries on Italian and German cars from the 1950s , 60s etc has good English but he still has plenty to do on Italian wiki.)

Ho hum. I only meant to do you a one line 'Thanks, amico'. Well, thanks amico. Charles01 (talk) 06:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, be glad you got a bit out of hand. You might just be right "turner" as a reference to lathe operator or (what's the word?) a guy who does milling on heads & such. Absent seeing the original, I have no clue. I suggested tuner from his work as a mechanic, which suggests "engine" to me; the translation may be using a broader meaning, anybody involved in mechanical work, which would cover lathe or milling machine operators (among others).

Yeah, I put it on the Project page. I found one of them on new page patrol & it looked promising til I looked at how badly translated it was. (I got about a quarter in & just couldn't cope anymore! Bad grammar makes me nuts. ;D) I applaud it being put up, but couldn't somebody have borrowed an Italian-English dictionary? (It works, y'know. I translated a short page from German Wikipedia with one. {No, not into Italian. =]})

I guess I did the same thing everybody else did: posted it & hoped somebody else would jump in. Thing was, it gave me a little respite from the worst of it, & some sense it wasn't a hopeless solo project. Between you and Kierant, I've managed to take some encouragement & not just walk away from the Bandini pages entire. If thanks are due, they're to you, too. Is it Molto grazzie? (Sp would be muchas gracias, & no, I don't speak much of that, either. I'm illiterate in about five languages. ;D) TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 16:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC) (Now that I think of it, my local library might have an It-Eng dictionary I can borrow... Like I don't have enough things to keep me busy here. =])

Cycle fenders? I'm not sure where that originated. I first saw it applied by magazine writers, but it was in re the Lotus 7, so I presumed it was a Brit term (I don't recall hearing it before that, but I've seen it used also by Brit writers since then, so...). As for where I learned, it's Canada, but I've had quite a bit of exposure to U.S. & Brit & some Oz English, thru TV programs & books, & I've also taken a particular interest in dialect, so my usage is pretty eclectic (or peculiar); I'm comfortable using some "local" idiom of all 3, & I can understand a lot of it where other people might be a bit at sea. Born & raised in Canada, picking up some French is inevitable (if only off the bilingual labels). I've also spent a lot of years reading military history, so I'm comfortable with quite a bit of German, & some (transliterated) Russian & Japanese. And living north of the U.S., it's hard not to pick up some (small amount of) Spanish. Am I boring you, yet? ;D TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 02:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

"distribution, and cinematism"? I suspected it was something to do with the distributor, & if you're right about camshaft, it'd be valvetrain. Have a look at the original & fix if needed?

Re lubrication v oil pump, it may be more than the pump was changed; could be new lines (a change to braided from rubber) or opening oil galleries, more capacity, better scavenging, switch to dry sump... Absent a good source, it's hard to know, if the original only mentions the pump.

"mixed distribution chain and gears"? I have a suspicion this is the drive for the cams, but could also be for the distributor, & it sounds like it was changed (from the previous arrangement) to gear-driven distributor & chain-driven cams. I'm not going to touch it, but if you can confirm, do fix it.

Also, can you have a look at "850 Canali Alberto"? I changed some of that, & I think I mangled the meaning.

Otherwise, you're looking good on it. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 03:38, 03:43, 03:57, 04:17, & 04:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to clear it up, Alberto Canali's name got reversed, & it had me thinking he was from Barsoom (Canali Alberto). =] TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 05:51, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I think there are two things going on here, Trekphiler. I'm not sure I've sufficiently thought through either of them, but in setting out my thoughts I hope I clarify them for both our benefits. The two things are (1) improving the correctness / translation of what went on under the hood / bonnet and (2) bike fenders.

On what went on under the hood / bonnet, my knee jerk reaction is to defer to you, on the grounds that you appear to know more about these cars than I do. One of us still needs to go through item by item and test your thoughts against our understanding of available sources, and if you don't get round to it first, I'll probably get round to it before too long. But if I'm the one to do it, my underlying assumption is likely to be that your guess is better than mine. That said:

We still need a mother tongue speaker - ideally of BOTH languages. Even if one of us gets hold of a superb technical dictionary, the examples of a car specific meaning of some of these terms that are given in that dictionary cannot be relied upon to be precisely analogous to the applications of Mr Bandini who was clearly an original thinker in any language. For many cars, service manuals can provide clarification of how the thing actually worked. Even if they are translated into rather quaint versions of English, there are frequently technical drawings from which one can infer what the writer actually meant. But with Bandinis, I do not know if service manuals exist, nor how one might begin to get hold of them

So I guess my conclusion on Point 1 is the banal one that whatever translations we end up with, further and better information may give access to subsequent improvements and corrections. Thus the wiki way.

The Bike fender thing is an even more familiar issue. You grew up speaking American (Oops, I mean Canadian English). I grew up speaking English (Ooops, I mean British English). And of course there are plenty of words the Australians use which have never penetrated to Oxford or Harvard. But at least we've both lived and worked with different version of English enough to have some sort of a feeling for the nature and extent of the differences.

A good starting point here might be the entry for Fender (vehicle). If ever you get round to doing an entry on bike fenders, look at that entry first. If ever I get round to doing an entry on motor bike style mudguards, I'll try and do the same. Either way, such an entry might well need input from both sides of the Big A(tlantic).

Wikipediae says that if it's American you should write about it in American (English) and if it's English you should write about it in (British) English. Fine for the Chevrolet Impala and the Austin Mini. But if it's German or Japanese or Swedish? I THINK in practice (that's practise) and maybe by prescription, where the car is European, we in England think that it belongs to our half of the Anglosphere and anglecise. But for cars that are well known in the US, that approach never really sticks. Think of the Audi 100 entry. Or Is that Audi 5000? I think American speaking contributors have accepted Audi 100 as the car's name (because that's the label they use in Germany) but there's usually a good deal of text there that simply is not in English (as in British English). I've translated a good many entries on German cars of the 1950s to English, and frankly where only a few people will read or contribute to an entry it's such a small problem that it barely merits a thought. But anything on a Volvo 144 or Honda Accord will attract copious attention from both sides of this particular anglophone language divide. I try and get round it by avoiding words which are specific to one or other side of the barrier. Where I can't do that I use both (as in bonnet / hood). To me, that's simply a courtesy to the reader.

Trekphiler, I still find 'motor-bike style mudguards' any ugly phrase. And if anyone better versed than I can come up with another word that means the same and works in both our languages, I'd go with that. Meantime, for Bandini, we are dealing with Italy, a country in which English is widely spoken as a second language. The English taught in Italy is British English. American English has penetrated Italy less than (for instance) it has penetrated Germany. Corporate America has problems understanding what's going on in corporate Italy. Think how long General Motors stayed with Fiat. And think how much longer they've stayed with Saab or indeed Opel and Vauxhall - yes, I know other issues come into play, but I think it's a simple matter of fact that Italy is not awash with US business execs to the same extent as Germany. So Italy is Europe and Britain is part of Europe (even if many of the English are in denial about having blown away the British empire which permitted them to pretend not to belong to any continent). So we use British English? Yet Sig Bandini seems to be better known in North America than in England. Chicago and New York and large swathes of small town America and Canada have many districts awash with Italian Americans who've never been to London, even if they may have a vague sense that it's in the general direction of Berlin (or Moscow. or Singapore. or maybe even Palermo). So the language for Bandini is American English?

So I'm back with voting for 'both' languages. Which I think gives us bike fenders / motorbike style mudguards.

Any views? Regards Charles01 (talk) 08:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I default to American, but I'm comfortable to let Britlish (OK?) stand where I find it (unlike some who'll revert not knowing any better). I also incline to using Britlish for European subjects generally. (HMG's sphere of influence & all that.) Something like the Accord or Civic also built here (Canada, too) probably should use Amlish. And yeah, some dual usage (bonnet/hood & such) is probably appropriate in places.

On the issue of cycle fenders, I disagree with "mudguard" because, as I understand it, "cycle fender" falls in the category of technical terms. Cf the previously mentioned Lotus 7, or the Cunningham Allards, or the Rotus 7, or some of the early Moggies. (Or maybe not.) "Mudgard" isn't quite the same thing. Or is too broad. Or something. A link to Fender (vehicle), if it's got a pic of one of said cycle-fendered types, isn't out of line; I wish I'd thought to do it. :[

As for Sig Bandini's putative fame, I never heard of him before. I do know a bit about racing, & a bit about cars; between them, I can cope with most of what was there. I also think the writer is giving him too much credit, but that could be Italian chauvinism at work in the original source.

The technical language issue, I think you may be right, but not because either of us is incompetent. I have a suspicion the original was transcribed by somebody with less than perfect grasp of the technical issues (but that may be because my Italian doesn't go far beyond Greta Scacchi =] and if you've ever seen "The Coca-Cola Kid", you'll realize it doesn't have to. =] ) If we're dealing with induced error, it's no wonder we can't suss it out. For now, have a glance at what I've done & see if it's terribly off the original Italian. My intention was, rely on you to get the translation to English close, then see if your translation gives me enough clarity to figure out what it should mean. If there is introduced error, tho, that may not be possible, which is what has me worried. For instance, as I think I said, the lubrication may've been completely redone by Bandini, but whoever transcribed from the paper source to Italian WP may not have known enough to say so, & absent the paper source, we can't know. I'm going to do a quick Google & see if I can find something on Bandini cars in English in hope of clearing that up, at least. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 18:14 & 18:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Took your hint; have a look at Fender (vehicle), while I go fix the Bandini's cycle fenders. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 18:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

<--Looking at your recent changes, I like "trusted team"; I think that's closer to what was really going on, w "Papa Bandini" & his Merry Men. I think there's still confusion over the bodywork (was it still Motto, or did they drop him, or what?). I might quibble over the engine "adopting" a new head; maybe I was unclear it's the company adopting it, & if so, I'll fix it. There's a bit of "control freak" in Bandini that seems to run in guys who form their own car companies (Ferrari was the same, Colin Chapman certainly had some of it, FWI read); if I can get a handle on the grammar, I'll take out the "wordiness" you were worried about. I took out the xt link to Dell'Orto; apparently, they're frowned on, & also, I want to encourage creation of an EngWP article on them, if I can. And to conclude, we may have to agree to disagree (tho I hope we can come to an agreement!) on mudgards v cycle fenders. I think the pic of the Lotus 7 at Fender (vehicle) pretty clearly shows they're not attached, & the description explains the usage (I know, I wrote it); I just wish I could source the origin of the term. I see from your discussion here the term's not terribly common across the pond, so maybe it's unique to the mag writers here; I'm not a big enough fan of the Seven & its siblings to know. TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 16:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Re Motto. It occurs to me the original bodywork was designed by Motto, & later the design was done in-house, but the actual construction was still by Motto, in the fashion of Ferrari & Pininfarina; IIRC, the early Ferraris were "farmed out", & later the styling was in-house, but the actual work was still done at the Farina plant. I would still like to see a source on it... I'm waiting on interlibrary loan for something... TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 17:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Eminently possible. I resist the temptation to speculate further, but I'm delighted that you hope to have a better source in due course.

I think I may leave this for a few days: let it settle and come back to it next week having better digested some of what I have been learning about Bandini. Where the Italian writer is vague - as you suggested, possibly because he doesn't always understand what his own sources are telling him - a sense of the Bandini context can help support useful insights, though that's not a route I'd want to go down very far for wiki work.

Regards Charles01 (talk) 18:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Bandini Regestry here. I'd like to comment on the following:

"As for Sig Bandini's putative fame, I never heard of him before. I do know a bit about racing, & a bit about cars; between them, I can cope with most of what was there. I also think the writer is giving him too much credit, but that could be Italian chauvinism at work in the original source."

If you would have been around American racing in the 1950's and early 1960's you would have heard of Bandini. They won the National SCCA Hmod championship in '55 and '57 and came in second many times. They took part in an amazing number of races and always finished near the top. They raced in international races like Sebring (1952, 1955, and 1960), Mille Miglia, etc. They were also on many magazine covers so just because YOU have never heard of Bandini does not mean they are not famous!

"Looking at your recent changes, I like "trusted team"; I think that's closer to what was really going on, w "Papa Bandini" & his Merry Men. I think there's still confusion over the bodywork (was it still Motto, or did they drop him, or what?). I might quibble over the engine "adopting" a new head; maybe I was unclear it's the company adopting it, & if so, I'll fix it. There's a bit of "control freak" in Bandini that seems to run in guys who form their own car companies"

Bandini was NOT a "control freak". He was an easy going caring person who was revered by his friends. I have never heard one bad thing said about Illario and in fact everyone who knew him LOVED him!

Motto made the first few bodies and then Bandini made them.

Bandini developed his OWN twin cam head for his engines.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandini Register (talk • contribs) 12:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Could be we're looking at Bandini different ways. I'm thinking of somebody obsessively concerned with getting it right, watching everything like a hawk. That's the impression left. Which doesn't mean he was hard to work for. I'd also say, having since seen comment from Autoweek, if they think the company was news, I'll defer; I make no claim to knowledge of '50s SCCA. As for Motto & the DOHC head, I did get that. If you can source the switch to Bandini making bodies in-house, do add it; do I understand Motto still designed them (in the fashion of Pininfarina)? TREKphiler ^{hit me ♠} 00:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Gimme a brake

Hmm. Just noticed a contradiction tween this page, which says the F3 got discs in '54, & this one, which says 1957. Anybody know which is right? TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 19:43, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Removed "Clean up - English" tag and did some copy edits

I've done some work on the translation/phrasing (while trying not to alter any of the content matter). I'm satisified that it now meets a reasonable standard of English and I've removed the tag.

I also did some copy edits relating to internal (WP) links, and started a references section. I cut down some of the less pertinent content where it seems to be duplicating other Bandini articles.

I'd suggest that the article still needs a lot of work. In particular it seems to be excessively focussed on the founder, Ilario, who already is the subject of a WP article, at the cost of focussing on the car as a type, or the company as a manufacturer. And it needs a LOT more referencing.

Wayne 04:40, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

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Artcurial auction catalog source

Continuing the discussion about sources to expand this article, I found that Artcurial auctions sold several Bandini cars from the Dino Bandini collection at their 2022 Retromobile auctions. The catalog descriptions with each lot could possibly be used as sources for this article. See the catalog here. Prova MO (talk) 15:08, 24 May 2023 (UTC)