Talk:Banknotes of the pound sterling

Other overseas territories

Article currently lists Saint Helena, Gibraltar, and Falklands. What about Cayman Islands and Bermuda (both overseas territories with their own currencies)?

Pictures Pls

maybe make the british pound designs a table like the USD wikipedia page to see the designs.

Page Move

I would like to request this page be moved to "Sterling banknotes", as the pound sterling is a unit of sterling and not the name of the currency itself. The pages for the banknotes of the mainland Chinese currency are not titled "banknotes of the renminbi yuan" for example.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 00:08, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I disagree. This article has been stable for many years under its current name with the terminology agreed on throughout. doktorb _words^deeds 04:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Just because something has not been changed for many years does not mean a discussion cannot take place, there are ongoing debates about the names of many articles.

Also I believe you should have begun a discussion with me before simply reverting my last edits just because you disagree with them, that's a good way of starting an edit war. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 12:54, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

No, you're not supposed to make the edits until they're agreed. You have to justify the changes, not me. I'm here to keep the stable version. doktorb _words^deeds 18:04, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I concur with TheCurrencyGuy's proposal. The article is about sterling banknotes in general, not just those for £1. Yes, the popular press likes to use the the expression "the pound" as a nickname for sterling, as it uses "the yuan" for Renimbi, but that simplistic model is too inaccurate for an article like this. I support the request to move.

(For such a significant change, however, it is usually best to propose it at the talk page first.) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:09, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I did propose the change here, @Doktorbuk reverted an edit I had made to the body of the text, I didn't move it myself without making a request here.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 18:04, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@TheCurrencyGuy: Apologies, I misunderstood you to have actually moved the article. So in the circumstances, what Doktorb did was valid: you made a bold edit, they reverted it per WP:BRD, so here we are. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I'd like to see some statistics about which out of "pound" and "sterling" comes top for commonality, because I doubt "sterling" even comes close to "pound". -- AxG / ✉  19:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

"Pound" is informal usage though, it is the name of the largest unit of the currency against which the values of other currencies are measured, not of the currency generally. Until 1970 the lineup of banknotes included the 10 shilling note, which was one of the most commonly used notes, while the value of that note was half of one pound, it was never referred to as a "half pound" note. Some colonial currency boards issued 5 shilling, 2 shilling and 6 pence, 2 shilling and even 1 shilling notes. Stocks of notes in these denominations were even produced by the Bank of England during the Second World War as a contingency plan for if silver for the striking of coins became scarce TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:55, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@AxG: Ngram gives us a clue: pound,pound sterling,sterling. The numbers are very small but "pound" is obviously top, "sterling" about half and "pound sterling" trails in a very long way behind. Of course this is just looking at all sorts of books: if anyone knows how to restrict to banking and finance, we might get a better perspective. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@TheCurrencyGuy: quite so. As titled, the article should only describe pound notes: Bank of England £1 note, The Royal Bank of Scotland £1 note, etc., which would be pedantic and pointless. The current content of the article is valid, it is the infobox (at least) and title that are inappropriate to that content.

I invite those sceptical of the idea to look at Bank of England note issues: the lead contains this: Of the eight banks authorised to issue sterling notes in the UK, only the Bank of England can issue banknotes in England and Wales, where its notes are legal tender. Not pound notes, not pound sterling notes, just sterling notes. And it is precisely correct in that expression. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:49, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

If one uses the "British English" option something remarkable happens: at many points the word "sterling" occurs more frequently than "pound", but "pound sterling" still lags a distant third. "Sterling notes" vs. "pound sterling notes" yields a pretty conclusive answer. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 00:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I also decided to check "GBP" vs. "STG": the results were quite interesting, while more results overall since 1992 are recorded for "GBP"; "STG" doesn't disappear and still records a notable number of hits. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 01:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

On investigating the results returned, "stg." (all lowercase) does seem to be marginally more common than the uppercase variant. The uppercase version seems to have enjoyed a peak of popularity between the 1950s and the 1980s, which is when many of the physical offline sources I have access to were published, possibly because some popular typefaces at the time were uppercase only (like the iconic Microgramma), so my bias in favour of the uppercase variant may have been influenced by the material I was familiar with. I believe therefore it might be most efficacious to cite "stg." as the banking standard abbreviation (several finance glossaries digitised on Google books list it), while noting "STG" as a variant. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:02, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

DISAGREE on moving this to 'Sterling banknotes' and the 'Pound Sterling' page to 'Sterling'. [1] Can't this debate be relegated to the 20th century when pennies & shilling sterling were still relevant and significant currency units? To today's 21st century audience a pound can't even buy a bus ride or chocolate bar, and UK tourists never ask for pence sterling. UK currency today is all pounds and modern web search results confirm exactly that, so please put the Pound Sterling issue to rest. This debate could be valid in the future with the TON STERLING worth 2,000 pounds. But not today. Thanks. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

The penny sterling is a relevant currency unit, stock traders sometimes quote stock prices in penny sterling for precision, some other currencies have no divisions at all, while others officially have them but no longer issue coins for them. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

And if the tourists are from Italy, they say sterline. Oppa, you need a better argument than wp:IDONTLIKEIT and rather silly straw men (and you mean short ton, a US measure).--John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:55, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Ones from Turkey say sterlin, the Turkish word for units whose native name is "pound". And that's quite right on the short ton, the British long ton is 2,240lb. The reason the currency is called "sterling" and not named after a specific coin or unit of account is because until the adoption of the gold standard amounts of money were defined according to weights of sterling silver, hence the pennyweight for example. I'm sure a foreign visitor would feel cheated if his foreign currency was rounded down to the nearest pound on conversion, because despite the inflation problems that have been plaguing the currency since the war it is still one of the largest currency units. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica, the great repository of British knowledge, precisely puts 'pound sterling' front-and-center as Britain's monetary unit. In turn it links to 'sterling' as a standard for silver purity. And EB has been refereed references way longer than Wiki, no?

EB and the rest of us are not hung up at all with 'pound sterling' as British currency so let's leave it as such. 'Sterling' is silver purity in modern popular minds, and secondarily a descriptive for British currency. 'Pound sterling' nails it unambiguously as modern British currency.

The casual wiki reader's already getting cognitive dissonance over recent edits with UK currency changed from the more concrete 'pound sterling' to the more ambiguous 'sterling' (which is either the currency, the silver fineness, and the original 8th century coin). And EB describing 'sterling' as the 8th century English coin is probably the best front-and-center definition if only to help explain its two modern-day meanings.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/pound-sterling

Pound sterling, the basic monetary unit of Great Britain, divided (since 1971) decimally into 100 new pence. The term is derived from the fact that, about 775, silver coins known as “sterlings” were issued in the Saxon kingdoms, 240 of them being minted from a pound of silver, the weight of which was probably about equal to the later troy pound. Hence, large payments came to be reckoned in “pounds of sterlings,” a phrase later shortened to “pounds sterling.

https://www.britannica.com/art/sterling-metallurgy

sterling, the standard of purity for silver.

Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 15:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Britannica has been an American publication since 1901. In any case, the 1911 definition given by Britannica uses "Sterling (currency)". The 1911 edition has a different entry for "pound" as a unit of currency, but does not call it "pound sterling". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:36, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

You also have no basis elevating 'sterling' to exactly the same status as 'RMB' and to the exclusion of 'pound sterling'. Modern China created the word 'renminbi' from inception to exclusively mean the 'people's currency' post-1949. While 'sterling' went through a millennia-long evolution, from the penny coin, to either a silver standard, or the British currency.

'Renminbi' leads to a single unambiguous definition. 'Sterling' leads to two modern-day definitions and one historical definition. For this reason alone this 'sterling' wiki adventurism should be put to an end. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 15:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

The name "sterling" for that grade of silver was derived from the type of silver used in the coinage. Apart from some periods of debasement, such as under Henry VIII, the coins were struck in sterling silver all the way up to 1920. It was the "pound" as a unit of account that changed over time not the grade of metal the currency was produced from. There was never a silver or gold coin called a "pound", coins worth (approximately, with some fluctuation) one pound existed, but had their own names: such as unite, laurel, carolus, broad, guinea and sovereign, but because the value of gold fluctuated in relation to silver, the basis for the currency until 1816, the nominal value was subject to change, Of these coins only the sovereign was always worth exactly one pound. This was why the guinea was never called the "guinea sterling", because when it was produced as a circulation coin it was a gold coin so it could fluctuate in relation to the value of the silver shilling coins in your purse, this was why it had its nominal rating against silver coin fixed at 21 shillings instead of "one pound". even though it was originally intended to represent the pound unit. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:31, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore, the word "pound" also has multiple meanings: it can mean a unit of currency, the action of "pounding" something, a unit of weight etc. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Also we don't have the benefit of cutting off the 'pound' from the 'sterling'. I'm looking at British money now and it says 'pound'. I don't see 'sterling'.

If 'pound sterling' is how Britannica describes its hometown's currency unit, and on British currency is printed 'pound' and almost-never 'sterling', then 'sterling' will only alienate the majority of readers seeing 'pounds' right now on British coins and banknotes.

NB. The 'renminbi' is issued by China's 'renmin yinhang' (the people's bank), which it's written in Chinese and even in Romanised 'pinyin' for foreigners to read. 'Sterling' doesn't enjoy such prominence, sadly.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/British_12_sided_pound_coin_reverse.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Bank_of_England_%C2%A35_obverse.jpg

Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 18:14, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

It is true that banknotes issued by the Bank of England do not say "sterling", but banknotes issued by Scottish and Northern Irish banks do. American banknotes do not proclaim themselves to be denominated in "United States dollars" TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 18:29, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

And hence we stay with 'pound sterling'. 'Sterling' or even 'Sterling (currency)' being unhelpful when 'sterling' isn't even printed on the most common 'calling cards' of British currency right now - coins and Bank of England notes. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 18:46, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Currencies do not necessarily use their full names on denominations, the example you cited with the Renminbi is just the Romanisation of the name of the issuing bank, not the name of the currency itself. Chinese banknotes read "x yuan", not "x Renminbi yuan". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 18:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

In Chinese you say 100 yuan. Append with 100 yuan 'renminbi' to make sure you don't pay in HKD or TWD. Luckily 'renmin' has the benefit of being printed on their currency as clear reference. 'Sterling' suffers from its total absence in currency, sadly. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 18:58, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

"Renmin" is just the Chinese word for "people", it isn't some helpful reminder of the name of the currency.

As the Renminbi article itself notes, the words "Renminbi" and even "yuan" are rarely used in vernacular Chinese. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 19:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

And hence the multi-definition “pound” and multi-definition “sterling” should yield to the unambiguous “pound sterling”. As the oldest living currency expect “sterling” to have accreted multiple modern definitions. And it’s doesn’t have the benefit of a fresh start that “renminbi” exactly enjoys in modern usage. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 17:01, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

But in this case, it is "banknotes of", so no ambiguity arises. If the proposal was to move the article pound sterling you might have a point but it is not. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:07, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

"Sterling (currency)" actually sounds like a good compromise on the name of that article if we decide to move this one. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 17:25, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I suspect (can't prove, just a suspicion) that the term "pound sterling" is an American one. British sources (keep in mind this article uses British English) call it "sterling", informally "the pound" in newspapers or television news reports, but never the "pound sterling". When a person says "50 pounds sterling" he is saying "50 pounds in sterling". One can also simply say "50 sterling", omitting "pound" completely when the unit is inferred by the amounts quoted. This is common in press releases on business deals or government financial statistics, where instead of "500 thousand pounds" it may say "500 thousand sterling" or "500 thousand stg". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

OGS, it is worth observing that, in the long history of sterling, the pound was only a unit of account – a coin weighing even a troy pound would be wildly impracticable. Most people dealt in silver pennies, the rich in silver shillings. Gold had no intrinsic value beyond its price in silver. So the key point it is sterling that is the world's oldest currency still in use, not the pound (or the shilling or the penny, for that matter). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:06, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Until the 13th century there weren't even any actual denominations above the penny, when the groat was introduced. It wasn't until the 15th century that a shilling coin (initially called the testoon) was issued. Until the early modern period amounts over a shilling were rarely needed in most transactions, so coins of higher units of account were either very rarely encountered or completely absent. This is why there are many turns of phrase revolving around the penny, such as "a penny for your thoughts", "penny wise and pound foolish" (ie. thrifty (maybe even stingy or selfish) with paltry sums but wasteful with large amounts), "take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" (because once you've saved up 240 pennies you'll have a pound, a considerable sum at one time) and the like. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 18:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Everyone, we are writing these articles for the 21st century audience. We're not writing wiki for Shakespeare. And to today's audience, 'pound' is the final word linking 'pound sterling' to that 'five-pound note' in your pocket.

Take away 'pound' and it's pure chaos. You're left with a word 'sterling' that's (1) loaded with centuries of meaning as silver purity, currency, type of coin, etc. and (2) today's reader can never figure out from the five pound note!

Hence it's 'pound sterling' in the interest of communicating it universally. Stop cancelling 'pound sterling' in our simple desire for clarity, unambiguity and inclusiveness. And not my fault if 'sterling' already seems cancelled in Bank of England notes.

Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 21:02, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

People don't spontaneously fall into confusion when confronted with the word "sterling". I do not see it as particularly confusing or obscure. When a well known (but inaccurate) turn of phrase is common enough we set up redirects so it always delivers the questioner to the right article, thus making protestations about "appealing today's audience" a moot point. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 21:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

I feel the case for a move to "Sterling banknotes", "Sterling coinage" and "Sterling" or "Sterling (currency)" is a very strong one. If banknotes are described generally they are called "sterling notes", not "pound sterling notes". I do not see how there can be any more confusion in a casual reader with this article than in the Renminbi article, especially as existing links will redirect here. Ngram seems to bear this out, at no point does "pound sterling notes" receive more hits than "sterling notes".TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Then open an WP:RM, and see what others think of your idea. -- AxG / ✉  15:00, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Indeed I will, I just wanted to discuss it first before opening one. Thank you. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 15:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Reminder: this request to move is about Banknotes of [the pound] sterling. It is not a request to move a different article

Much of the discussion above since about 04:00 UTC today seems to have wandered off into a discussion about the article pound sterling. That is a discussion for another place at another time. Would editors please try to focus on this RTM. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:37, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Multiple page requests are being made both for 'pound sterling' and 'banknotes of pound sterling'. See link below. It just happens some momentum and feedback already occurred here. By my comment in the other tag get consensus there (banknotes) before moving forward here (pound sterling) we settle the fate of two pages here at once. And I'm in favor of no changes to (1) pound sterling, (2) banknotes of pound sterling, and while we're at it let's also throw in (3) coins of pound sterling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pound_sterling#Move_request

Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 23:54, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Might as well throw my penny's worth in too.

I am strongly in favour of moving (1) Pound sterling to Sterling or Sterling (currency), (2) Banknotes of the pound sterling to Sterling banknotes and (3) Coins of the pound sterling to Sterling coinage TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 00:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

That is irrelevant to this discussion. Keep it for its own article (but I suggest that it is almost certainly a bridge too far and definitely not to be pursued in parallel with this discussion). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:08, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Here are some citations that show that the BoE routinely uses the word "Sterling" alone as the name of the currency. The first one explitly refers to "sterling [bank]notes. If it is good enough for the Bank of England, then it should be good enough for Wikipedia.

• Annual amounts outstanding of consortium banks' sterling notes in circulation total (in sterling millions) not seasonally adjusted
• Currently banks with UK private sector sterling deposits or sterling loans over £1,000mn, total assets over £3,000mn or eligible liabilities over £400mn report data on a monthly basis.
• "However, following massive rises in interest rates and intervention in the foreign exchange markets that failed to move sterling from the floor of the ERM,"

See also Sterling crisis. Not pound crisis, not pound sterling crisis. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:08, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 June 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. Ordinarily this sort of withdrawal isn't permitted once "support" !votes have been cast, but this request has become such a hot mess of apparent sock votes and other acrimonious discussion and confusion, that it seems best to leave it for now, with no prejudice for a re-nomination in future. I'd recommend for a future RM, focusing the request on either Pound sterling along, or the banknotes/coins articles alone, as some people may support one of those moves and not the other, and it leaves it clearer.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

---

• Banknotes of the pound sterling → Sterling banknotes
• Coins of the pound sterling → Sterling coinage
• Pound sterling → Sterling (currency)

– I believe it would be more appropriate that this and related articles be at "Sterling banknotes". "Sterling coinage" and "Sterling" or potentially "Sterling (currency)" because in all but FOREX listings it is typically described as such. One refers to "sterling notes" or "sterling banknotes" when generally speaking of them, adding "pound/s sterling" if discussing a specific sum of money (although this too may sometimes be omitted when the amount described means it obviously refers to the pound unit, such as "millions in sterling" or "40 million sterling", omitting any problems one might encounter if one simply said "pounds"). As mentioned, the Bank of England often describes the currency as "sterling" with no unit specified. There are far more results for "sterling" when one searches the archives of the British Parliament than the specific term "pound sterling". According to Ngram the phrase "sterling notes" always produces more hits than "pound sterling notes". Ngram also produces many more more results for "sterling" than "pound sterling". Pound is at the top in that graph, but that could refer to any number of historic and circulating currencies so is not particularly helpful in narrowing down a currency name. Perhaps more useful is searching "prices in sterling" vs. "prices in pound sterling", apart from a spike in the early 1960s Ngram produces no recent results at all for "prices in pound sterling". Searching "prices in sterling" vs. "prices in pounds sterling" produces more recent hits for "prices in pounds sterling", but "prices in sterling" is still far ahead. If one switches the language to British English, the language of this article, the results tip even further in the direction of "sterling" alone.

AMMENDMENT: "Sterling (currency)" instead of "Sterling", have struck out the initial suggestion and settled on the second option.

• The Office for National Statistics, a major government body dealing with trade and economic statistics consistently uses either "sterling" or "the pound", but never both. It speaks of the "Sterling exchange rate", not the "Pound sterling exchange rate".
• The Bank of England, the Central Bank of the United Kingdom, routinely uses "sterling" without the "pound" unit moniker attached.
• NatWest describes the currency here as "the UK sterling currency"
• The UK government's own website calls the currency "sterling"
• Reuters uses either "sterling" or "the pound", but only rarely "the pound sterling".

According to WP:TITLEVAR topics closely linked to a specific English-speaking country should use that nation's variety of English rather than imposing a different term. In British English "sterling" is the WP:COMMON NAME as well as the official name of the currency. WP:IDONTLIKEIT or usage by non-British English sources is not a valid reason to object to the official name. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 15:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose (pound sterling → sterling at least). The common name is either "pound," "pound sterling" or "Great Britain pound." It most certainly is not "sterling." See BBC CNBC Financial Times Britannica. (In addition, there is no indication that the currency is the primary topic for sterling; see other uses at Sterling.) -- Vaulter 16:05, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

*:FOREX sources tend to use "pound sterling" because they are specifically measuring the strength of the pound unit against other currency units. CNBC and Britannica are American publications so their usage should be taken with a degree of caution. Earlier editions of Britannica used "Sterling (currency)". "Great Britain pound" is a backronym from the ISO code, not an actual name anybody would use, just like how CNY is not an abbreviation of the name of Mainland China's currency. Common terms used in banking and news about financial and business affairs are "non-sterling purchase fee", "sterling surplus", "sterling deficit", "sterling crisis", "sterling devaluation" etc. The Office for National Statistics refer to "Sterling exchange rates" not "pound sterling exchange rates", lending further creedance to "sterling". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:32, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. OP does not argue that this is the primary topic here, and I am not convinced it is primary over Sterling silver. In the circumstances I think natural disambiguation is more appropriate. Per WP:CRITERIA I'd also argue that moving to sterling would make this article even less consistent with similar articles (which are mostly named in the form Ruritanian groat), and that sterling is significantly less recognisable than pound sterling to a worldwide audience. I'd note that much of the evidence presented by the OP does not demonstrate very much. For example, in this ngram search, it is literally impossible for there to be more references to "pound sterling" than to "sterling", because all references to "pound sterling" are also references to "sterling". I'd also note that it makes no sense to consider data all the way back to 1800 in this context. Kahastok talk 17:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

*:The model I am following is that of the Renminbi article. While "Chinese yuan" or "Renminbi yuan" would be more recognisable to a worldwide audience, it is not an accurate representation of the name of the currency. "Sterling (currency)" would be an acceptable compromise in my opinion. One of the reasons I support the primacy of "sterling" as a currency over that of sterling silver is that the silver grade is named after the currency, as it was the grade of silver British coins were struck in until the 20th century. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 19:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support Banknotes of the pound sterling → Sterling banknotes and Coins of the pound sterling → Sterling coinage; oppose Pound sterling → Sterling
  • The name of the currency is sterling: that is the name that the Bank of Englnad uses [see citations at end of preceding section] and the name used in professional media such as The Economist. The Bank of England explicitly uses the phrase "sterling [bank]notes". So if it is good enough for the BoE, what reason short of WP:IDONTLIKEIT to continue to use any other term for the notes and coins. I see no reasonable WP:COMMON NAME argument here. In this case, the current name should be the redirect article.
  • On the other hand, the current article is not just about the currency in the abstract; it also about the pound (the unit) in particular. Indeed it is probably more about the pound than it is about sterling. It is the primary topic in this case. Let it stand.

  --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

*:There is a solution, by using the disambiguation "Sterling (currency)", as it was listed in the 1911 Britannica, I consider this an acceptable middle ground and I would be prepared to help produce a section or subsection on the "pound" specifically. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose all "Pound" is WP:COMMONNAME and should be included in these titles. Obviously "sterling" would have higher ngram results than "pound sterling" since it also has broader uses for silver and many, many others. "prices in sterling" is likewise an odd phrase to search exactly. "pound notes" is much more common than either term you searched for, and these are probably not results for the Egyptian pound... Reywas92^Talk 14:44, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

*:I would however like to draw attention to WP:TITLEVAR: If a topic has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, the title of its article should use that nation's variety of English (for example, compare Australian Defence Force with United States Secretary of Defense). "Pound sterling" appears to be a compromise compound name originating in American English. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 15:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Unsourced speculation where the name originates, but it's commonly used in UK government websites [2]. Reywas92^Talk 16:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

  Sterling exchange rate produces almost 3,000 results.

  Pound sterling exchange rate produces only 9.

  "In sterling" produces 71,600 results.

  "In pounds sterling" produces only 9,670 results. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:18, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose all per WP:COMMONNAME. 68.43.231.28 (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

  Would you also advocate for Renminbi to be at Chinese yuan for that same reason? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 15:34, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose all. MOS:RETAIN everything at Pound Sterling. You'll only turn Wiki UK into a pariah with Sterling (ambiguous word). Summarizing the most important points:

1. Pound sterling is a concrete idea as both the currency & the unit. While sterling is an ambiguous concept with three possible meanings - horrible introductory word to readers to describe British currency since it could mean (a) British currency, or (b) high-grade sterling silver or (c) The ancient English currency c 800 that's the namesake of both a, b.

2. Web-search "What is British currency?" and Wiki UK's answer sterling will stick out like a headless chicken. Almost all online searches and references will say it is primarily Pound sterling! and secondary British pound. Web-search simply demands that Wiki UK conforms and not present a headless chicken.

3. Nearly all foreigners know British currency as the pound! Silly to suggest even more new concoctions like sterling (currency) when simple elegant pound sterling mentions its most famous name (pound) plus the currency name (sterling).

4. Also, China's renminbi-yuan is not analogous to sterling-pound. The renminbi name existed right at inception to mean China's post-1949 currency, practically copyrighted. While sterling is a 1,000-year old non-copyright word with one historic meaning (the old coin) and two modern meanings (the sterling silver, or the British currency). Lotsa British stuffs never came from written constitutions (unlike the renminbi law) so stop acting like 'sterling' is in a codified book for you to throw at your hopelessly confused audience.

5. The word sterling never appears on Britain's most prominent circulating media - BoE notes & UK coins. And hey it aint our problem! BoE says I promise to pay the bearer XX pounds. The banknote is the most basic contract between BOE & the user. And sterling aint written in our agreement. Our covenant says (repeat after me) POUNDS. No wonder Brits & all foreigners call it POUNDS & not sterlings - still a good idea to chop off the very word people can still read in BoE notes?

6. This particular website says Pound Sterling already functions as UK currency name in the contemporary sense. Highlights below: http://www.differencebetween.net/business/finance-business-2/difference-between-pound-and-sterling/

• Everyone is familiar with the currency of the United Kingdom, more commonly known as the pound. Sometimes, however, the word sterling is used to describe the UK currency.
• The British pound is a type of currency... The pound sterling, generally shortened to just pound, is the certified currency of the United Kingdom (and other territories)
• The financial term for British pound is pound sterling (abbreviated to stg.).
• In formal contexts, the full, official name is used – pound sterling (plural: pounds sterling)
• Pound sterling is also used when there is a need to distinguish the currency of the United Kingdom from that of other countries using (pound) currency, eg Egypt, Lebanon, etc.
• Sterling (shortened to ster. or stg.) is used when pound sterling is abbreviated. It is the financial term used to stand for the currency...
• There really is no right or wrong usage of the words “pound” and “sterling.”. UK currency is better known as “pound”. While “sterling” is used in the financial market.

7. From a coding perspective "Banknotes+Coins of the (currency name)" is the way to go. A yet more superior format is "Banknotes of the (country)(currency)" = "Banknotes of the British Pound" but nope Pound Sterling is good enough.

8. Finally, this proposal amounts to little more than historical fetish of little consequence to modern life. The historical should not be an obstruction to the contemporary.

We have already received comments opposing to this change in Talk:Banknotes of the pound sterling#Page Move And I'm now I see this silly seesaw of "pounders" editing to "pound sterling" only for "sterlingers" to revert it. Let's put it to an end, acknowledge that sterling could be a tragic mistake in Wiki intros, and accept the most pragmatic, least controversial word - simple beautiful POUND STERLING. Thanks and vote Oppose. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

So the Bank of England, the British Government, the Bank of Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland, the Ulster Bank, George Soros etc etc are wrong and you are right. Well that settles that then. The articles Sterling crisis and Sterling area clearly need to be renamed to suit your greater knowlege.

Yes, the common name is "pound sterling" and that RtM is dead in the water.

But the only valid member of "banknotes of the pound sterling" are the £1 notes issued by the BoE and the banks in Scotland and (Northern) Ireland. The £5, £10 etc are not. The only valid members of "coinage of the pound sterling" are the two editions of the One pound (British coin); the 1p–50p coins are not. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Your 1st par is clearly a mischaracterization of above point (6) "There really is no right or wrong usage of the words “pound” and “sterling.”." It's self-evident to all readers. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The citation you offered is not a dedicated source for anything, it is a general use site which is not a legitimate source as it is pulled together from other sources.
Your obsession with "pound" and apparent total aversion toward "sterling" is unsettling, particularly when the British Government, the Bank of England etc. etc. all regard "sterling" as the currency's name. The "pound sterling" is a UNIT of the currency. I have no idea why Renminbi gets a free pass in your book. Surely as the oldest circulating currency sterling ought to have sufficient established credentials to stand on its own without having to fall back on the practices of the popular press.
WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Woe your words apparent total aversion toward "sterling" is unsettling also counts as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, no? Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:46, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Expressing a disagreement with an argument is not the same thing as disagreeing with well sourced citations just because it is an exception to practices you think ought to be considered iron-cast rules. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support all. The precedent set by Renminbi suggests WP:OFFICIAL should override WP:COMMONNAME in this case.88.144.12.208 (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2022 (UTC) — 88.144.12.208 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support all. The use of Sterling is in line with reputable and reliable English-language sources. The official usage ought to take precedence over colloquial usage. Use of pound sterling is functionally not different from using pence sterling or penny sterling. There are contexts where this is appropriate, but in my opinion it is not appropriate as a term for referring broadly to the currency itself. 2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E (talk) 03:09, 30 June 2022 (UTC) — 2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support all. Given clear context for the sole term Sterling in most monetary discussion, and evidence of official reference in this manner, Pound Sterling should be considered at best a common alternative name but not the primary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vulpelibrorum (talk • contribs) 03:33, 30 June 2022 (UTC) — Vulpelibrorum (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Commentators disqualified for making their first and only comment in this survey as per contributor records.

2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E

88.144.12.208 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/88.144.12.208

Vulpelibrorum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Vulpelibrorum Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 03:37, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

According to WP:RMCOMMENT all editors are welcome to comment. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 03:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

To be approved by consensus of all editors existent before survey date 28 June 2022. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 03:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to this? I certainly cannot see it anywhere. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 03:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

See WP:SPA. X-750 _{Rust In Peace... Polaris} 04:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Posted in Pound Sterling wiki: Dictionary definitions of Sterling and Pound Sterling Talk:Pound_sterling#Dictionary_definitions_of_Sterling_and_Pound_Sterling

These dictionary definitions are provided for the final rewrite of article "Pound sterling" and they all agree:

• Sterling is NOT THE MONEY of the UK. Sterling is the MONEY SYSTEM of the UK - a mere pointer to consult the rules, denominations, coins & notes. And what do the rules say?
• Cambridge: Pound sterling = money used in the UK. Also: pound = money used in the UK. And finally, pound = unit of money used in the UK
• Oxford: Pound sterling = unit of money in the UK. Pound = unit of money in the UK. Sterling means "system of UK money" and not "UK money".
• Sterling = UK money is an obsolete and deprecated definition. Maybe true for the original sterling silver 1d (penny). But not for all other coins. And already struck out of dictionary definitions! So why use this as Wikipedia definition?

So let's review:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pound-sterling

• Pound sterling: the official name of the pound used as money in the U.K.
  • 2nd half of sentence: Pound is the money used in the UK
  • 1st half of sentence: Pound sterling is official name of the pound, making it also the money used in the UK.

• Pound: the standard unit of money used in the U.K. and some other countries
  • Hence Pound is also the standard unit of money used in the UK (pound is the money & the unit)

• Sterling: the British system of currency, based on the pound
  • Ayyy, Cambridge does not define sterling as the British money! Sterling is merely the SYSTEM OF CURRENCY - the structure of rules on what's lawful, what's your coins, your notes, your units. Sterling is a mere pointer that says "consult the rules". And what do the rules say? See above
  • Officially: The pound sterling is the money used in the UK
  • Colloquially: The pound is the money used in the UK
  • So Cambridge never said sterling is British money. It only said pound sterling is the money used in the UK

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/pound_1?q=pound+sterling

• Pound sterling: (specialist term for) the unit of money in the UK
• Pound: the unit of money in the UK
• Sterling: the money system of the UK, based on the pound

• • Ouch so Oxford also never said sterling is UK money! Only that sterling is UK money system i.e. sterling means "consult the law on British money".
  • And what does the law say? The pound sterling is the unit of money in the UK.

Other dictionaries agree:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/pound-sterling

• Pound sterling: the official name for the standard monetary unit of the United Kingdom
• Pound: the unit of money which is used in Britain.
• Sterling: the money system of Great Britain.

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/pound-sterling

• Pound Sterling and 'GBP' each means the official currency of the United Kingdom
• Pound Sterling means the lawful money of the United Kingdom.

Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 03:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

"Pay in sterling"

• Pre-1816: pay in sterling silver coins from pennies to crowns
• Post-1816: sorry the money system is now gold. "Pay in sterling" therefore means "pay according to the rules & the monetary system". "Sterling" now assumes the dictionary meaning "according to the monetary system of the UK" and deprecating the original meaning. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:02, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

If "sterling" is so "obsolete and depreciated" how come the Office for National Statistics and the Bank of England use it? Are you suggesting you have superior understanding to the government and the central bank? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

To be consulted with other editors (minus the three new ones). But dictionaries are WP:RS widely recognized by all, then clearly sterling means 'the money system'. And we will NOT write Wikipedia with a dictionary-conflicting definition! 'Sterling' everywhere means

• according to UK law' whenever you read it. Or
• an abbreviation of 'Pound sterling', which is UK money according to dictionaries Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

_{Whether those editors contributions are to be considered is not your decision to make. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)}

We will all be approving a dictionary definition of Pound Sterling very soon! Yeah! See you at the finish line! Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:33, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I can smell a decisive irrefutable WP:CON victory! Mwahhh! Please be happy for me and my pound sterlings (oops pounds sterlings lol) Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 05:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• SHUT DOWN this RFC - I'm quite concerned about a number of newbies showing up, suddenly. GoodDay (talk) 04:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks, I'm keeping records and screenshots on everything now. I'm new here so are you familiar how you or a third-party can shut down this RFC? Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

  I'd recommend contacting WP:AN & ask an administrator to shut it down. GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

  Done - thanks! Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I am withdrawing this move request for the time being. I may wish to open it up again at a later date, but clearly the situation is far too volatile with too much bad blood to continue.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 05:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@TheCurrencyGuy With you caught redhanded with sockpuppetry Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Sockpuppetry_-_developing_story you will NEVER get the opportunity for any major Wikipedia edits!

MOTION TO CLOSE - consensus reached is REJECTED with no name change to all proposed sites Pound sterling Banknotes of the pound sterling Coins of the pound sterling I'll give this 1/2 day for all to see before we act on it. Closing moves to commence 18:00 UTC. Thank you. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 05:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Stop acting as if you are an administrator. You seem intent on waging an all out war with me. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 05:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The shilling symbol for pound sterling

The Hatter enjoying a cup of tea and bread-and-butter, by Sir John Tenniel. The price of his hat is 10/6, a half guinea.

The symbol is “d”; NOT /-!! 2601:5C5:4380:FD80:E148:901D:C44F:8BDD (talk) 20:12, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

No, 'd' is for pennies, see £sd. Or just a dash if none (as in "10/-", ten shillings, no pence). The symbol for shillings is s, probably originally a long s, ſ that degraded over time to / (which in old dictionaries is called a solidus). --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Well maybe I’m confused, but I stand corrected (I might have wrote that when I was an IP, I don’t know for sure); but many places use an “s” for shillings. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 15:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, shilling on its own might be written as e.g., 5s or 5/- I suspect that Tenniel was following custom and practice when he priced the top hat at 10/⁶ rather than 10s 6d but maybe it was just a case of which would fit better on the drawing. I'm afraid at this stage you need to start researching reliable sources rather than rely on my version of "as everybody knows". --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)