Talk:Barnard's Express

Corporate name

I'm pretty sure the official name of the B.X. was the "BC Express Co." - this was in any case a DBA name; maybe it was a branch outfit, I'll try and find out. But the 'B' theoretically here stands for "BC", even though it's generally taken to refer to Barnard.Skookum1 20:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right. In Willis West's Stagecaoch and Sternwheeler days it states that Barnard merged his company, Jeffray and Co's Fraser River Express, into the British Columbia {and Victoria} Express Company. It was referred to, quite correctly, in all cases as the BC Express Company, the BX and Barnard's Express. It could be that more people are familiar with the title BC Express Company, though. CindyBo 07:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I added some pictures from BC archives under fair use. I hope they stay, but will keep searching for public domain ones.CindyBo 07:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

How old are they? Please see the Canada-pd50 tag, which I never get right but which you can find on the second map in the history section of Port of Vancouver. Don't believe BC Archives copyright claims, or what they say about them...notes on this elsewhere, somewhere on the BC project talkpage/archives..Skookum1 07:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Re the company name, I think I have an answer for you - I wrote the Francis Jones Barnard article as a crib from Kerr (trying not to plagiarize so restructuring syntax all over the place ;-) but with only one source and a complex narrative...) but I know terms and names were pulled straight out of Kerr's book (1890); this is one bit that's pretty much a (non-plagiaristic) lift:

With the completion of the first section of the Old Cariboo Road to Soda Creek in 1862 , Barnard used his own acquired capital and found a backer to launch Barnard's Express and Stage Line with fourteen six-horse coaches and a famous team of "crack whips" to drive them, including legendary drivers Steve Tingley and Billy Ballou.

My emphasis on the company name, and this is in an official-esque biography of notable BCers. But I know, and perhaps mentioned later in Francis Jones Barnard, or in his son's article, the development of the river freighting fleet on the upper Fraser, that somewhere I saw that the river business was chartered as the British Columbia Express Copmany, the B.X. name proper was older, and BC Express was just a nice approximation for the sub-company/affiliate/subsidiary name - and note that there could be a difference between British Columbia Express Company and BC Expressco or differing forms to do with legal/incorporation reasons; remember this is British Columbia and every incorporation is both a tax dodge and carries with it a huge load of licensing/regulatory responsiblities and liabilities; so different operations in teh old days often had different companies; if one service mentions a certain company name, and another branch of the Barnard freighting empire had a different one - in the course of the same source, like Kerr - I'd have to go with consistency on stuff like that, i.e. assume there's a reason for the different usages in re different services/contexts/periods. Kerr's not detailed, but he's very meticulous, and my imnpression was his choices of such wording was precise. BTW I'd thought Blin-Wright was also involved in this, i.e. the upper Fraser steamers; he contracted to build the Old Cariboo Road, the Lillooet-Alexandria/Soda Creek one and I thought it was to do with his own steamer on the Fraser (as to why it ended at Alexandria) but he definitely got into steamers in the Kootenay/Slocan/Arrow in a big way later. Also remember that the original company, other than his own personal pony express, was his merger with the Victoria-Yale company when Hugh Nelson went into politics, or got bumped up out of it rather.Skookum1 07:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Note also the name Billy Ballou, who was already famous when he came to BC, by BC accounts, from California I would imagine, but I can't find anything on him down there; I think there's a connection [[Cat Ballou] here, too, but let's not go there right now....One last thing - note that the Old Cariboo Road to Soda Creek in 1862 was not via Lytton-Ashcroft-Clinton, but Lillooet-Pavilion Mtn-Clinton and then to Alexandria; the road from Yale only started being built in 1862. So that's something for me to be explicit about back on that page, but please be aware in your article here that the BX coach/freight wagon services operated on the Lillooet-Pavilion Road/Old Cariboo Road (or as you'll hear locals say it, the old Cariboo Road, to distinguish it from the more famous, later one) and also on the Douglas Road; somewhere I heard his first offices were in Port Douglas; I think that's in Frances Decker's Pemberton: History of a Settlement but I don't have a copy.Skookum1 07:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Back to the pictures for a second. They are all pre 1920. Should I use the pd Canda 50 tag or leave as fair use when uplading these images, and others?CindyBo 00:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Use the PD50 tag; just make sure the archives images don't have any of their logo-border on them, that's all; they have no right to the actual image, only to the negative and prints made off it; many pictures were never their copyright to start with but things like postcards and commercial photos; they never had any more copyright than what's conferred by possession of negatives, which doesn't exclude public domain depending on the origin, and also the topic/subject. There's a discussion about this on, as said, one of the BC project talk pages; ora couple of discussions, I'm not sure where they are; the editor who did most of the legwork is Bobanny so there's somewhere to ask. Our position is that the Archives assertion of copyright if false; even their letters in response have not outright stated images can't be used, they just make it sound like they should be paid, without ever saying that there is any legal onus to do so. The issue with the PD50 is more to do with it not superseding the US' PD100 sort, so any photograph which might have been copyrighted in the United States has to be older than 1907, vs. 1957 in Canada's case.Skookum1 03:38, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Hi Cindy; "back in town" for a bit ;-). There's some detailed passages in Mark S. Wade's The Cariboo Road and Robin Skelton's This Is Cariboo which lay out the machinations by which Barnard's Express got the overall monopoly; Ballou was a franchisee of sorts for Wells Fargo for one thing; for another Nelson & Dietz (not that Dietz, i.e. Dutch Bill) which had the Victoria-Yale monopoly in competition with Ballou had links to Barnard and there's some insider-connections hoohah to do with that; I think it's Skelton's book which laid it out best, but they've all blurred on me and I don't have them handy (partly blurred because Skelton quotes Wade a lot, although at least one of the two makes a direct comment on the Nelson-Barnard relationship). A term which turned up in the course of those books is useful, also - "expressmen" - which might replace Category:Packers here i.e. Category:Expressmen has a rationale, and there should be an article on Expressmen as you'll understand once you read the relevant passage/chapter in one of those two books; their services were more efficient than Canada Post and free, too. The shifting ownership of the BX to/through Tingley is also laid out in detail, as is the culture and unique community of the Cariboo Road and the B.X.'s role in that.Skookum1 04:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

William Ballou

Billy Ballou is more than worthy of an article; Wade's and the other books only describe his role/activities in BC, other than making some reference to his more ignominious career in Idaho/Montana afterwards and his origins in California; it was he who introduced the "Express" system to British territory; not sure if he's the father of the legendary Cat Ballou but he may be; I seem to recall from the flick (starring Jane Fonda and Lee Marvin as I recall) that her father's name was Billy, so there must be something behind that script, but I don't know of any American sources. Netta Sterne's book - The Fraser Gold Rush I think - is also useful because of its American-side storifying about the Fraser Gold Rush, including details which are somewhat shockingly absent from any of the Canadian-written history (she's Canadian but did her work at Washington State Pullman).Skookum1 04:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Nope just looked at the Cat Ballou page and her father's name was Frankie; the movie is based on a novel anyway, not on a history, but you know how novelists are about rejigging facts/names. Ballou was AIRC a Carolinan or Virginian of French ancestry; not sure what their background was in the movie, it's been years since I've seen it (it was funny, though).Skookum1 04:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The only sources I have right now are Willis West's, but at least, it matches those online ones that are on the Francis Jones Barnard article, (I copied them over here too, as they seem to have lots of information and dates on the company itself). I'll add what I have from West, he was the company's GM from 03 to 21, so his information on those years is a bit more thorough than the early years. He's got very little on Ballou though.CindyBo^talk 06:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The Cariboo library system has the Wade and Skelton books; I took them out from the Wells library; I think I saw Skelton in the library in the Hart; not sure about Wade but it should be at CNC or UNBC libraries (you'd think). Certainly availalbe on interlibrary loan, and a MUST READ.Skookum1 06:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Dufferin Coach

Just saw your addition; I'm pretty sure this beastie is in the Royal BC Museum now; and IIRC there's sentiments in Barkerville that it should be more appropriately on display there (or, I'd say, in Yale). There's also a story about some guys who were treated to a ride in it but cheaped on the bill; in both Wade and Skelton I think.Skookum1 06:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this has a potential to be a big article once it's finished from all the right sources. So many parts of it are of historical significance. However, it's nothing compared to the Cariboo Gold Rush of course, which I've been warily circling for some time now. That one is at the center of probably several dozen biographies and town articles, rivers? lakes? that need to be written yet, yikes. BTW, I never did get around to retitling Cariboo camels yet. The sources call them that, but like you say, they aren't just "Cariboo" camels or even primarily Cariboo camels, so I don't know what to do with them. I don't think anyone's touched Chilcotin War lately either, although I did Alfred Waddington, just a straight bio though.CindyBo^talk 06:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:RMS BX and BC Express at South Fort George.gif

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)