Talk:Barry John/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 12:47, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
This American knows very little about rugby, so let's light this candle...

Well-written:

• In the infobox (and elsewhere, but I don't think there are any instances of it), year ranges are rendered without repeating the first two digits, e.g. 1962–64

 Done

• "He played club rugby for both Llanelli and Cardiff..." – Would be helpful to expand to include "RFC"

 Done

• "John is remembered for forming" – No meaning is lost if this is changed to "John formed"; the reader will assume this fact is important because it's the second sentence of the lead

 Done

• "...but it was his role in the 1971 British Lions tour to New Zealand that he played some of his finest rugby" – "...but it was in his role"?

 Done

• "...finishing as the Lions top Test scorer." – Lions'

Silly one to miss.  Done

• "He went to school as a child..." – I'm not familiar with the schooling system in Wales. Is any meaning lost if "as a child" were dropped?

Point made.  Done

• "The headmaster, William John Jones, and in his final year, teacher Ray Williams, were both former Wales international rugby players." – "and in his final year" is ambiguous. Does it mean Williams was a teacher at John's school only in John's final year, that the only year that Williams and John were both at the school was Williams' final year as a teacher or that Williams played his last year of rugby for Wales?

Removed the 'final year' part as it didn't really add more understanding and was slightly confusing.  Done

• "local rivals" and "local resentment" is confusing because I assumed both teams were in the same town. Maybe "nearby rivals" instead?

local removed from rivals, but local resentment is correct as his own town felt the resentment. Hopefully that clears things up.

• "While still a teenager, attending Grammar School..." – I think the flow is improved simply by dropping the comma

Comma dropped, and Grammar School linked and switched to lower case.  Done

• "he made his first top-flight rugby appearance for Llanelli, on 4 January in an encounter with Moseley during the 1963/64 season." – We can figure out which season it is if you write "on 4 January 1964 in an encounter with Moseley." Also, is "encounter" a little too informal?

Date changed to 4 January 1964, season dropped.  Done

Although formal it is a term that is used extensively in British sports journalism. Just a quick search for "encounter between Arsenal and" returned 21,000 results, and that's just one football team. ✗ Not done.

• I can go with that. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 00:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• "John scored a try and converted it;" – change semicolon to comma

 Done

• "He continued to turn out for Llanelli..." – does "turn out" mean "play for"?

Changed to 'represent'.  Done

• "The win over Swansea..." – Later it's stated there were four wins over Swansea, so maybe "A win over Swansea..."?

 Done

• "'genius of one player'" – quotation marks and not apostrophes, right?

Right.  Done

• "He almost missed the second away encounter of the season with Swansea," – drop the comma

 Done

• "The 1965/66 season also saw..." – Seasons don't have eyes. :) Six other instances of this.

In Britain they do, one 'i' in Winter and one in Spring. Despite this I must bow to your better judgement. All 'saw's now removed.  Done

• "...he was chosen as reserve to regular fly-half, David Watkins." – drop the comma

 Done

• "Bennett would eventually become..." – "eventually became". Three other instances of this tense.

Changed the first two instances, but challenge the third "little to suggest the pair would become one of the great half-back pairings in rugby history". "Would become" does not want to be a became.

• I think the fourth instance is "...but the final game at home to England would still decide the Championship" Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 00:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• "11-4" – I believe MOS requires an en dash and not a hyphen. ~28 other instances of this.

All score lines within the text switched from hyphen to space ndash.  Done

• "...John managed to gain revenge over Australia just over a month later, when the same team faced Llanelli at Stradey Park." – drop the comma

 Done

• "...and the very next match he was dropped, with the selectors reverting to the more experienced Watkins." – the 'with + noun verb-ing" construction is frowned upon here. Six other instances of this.

• This is just for my own bookkeeping – I know you haven't forgotten – but I still count five instances of this issue. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 00:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• "Wales had an error strewn game..." – "error-strewn"

 Done

• "John raised Welsh hoped..." – spill chock

 Done

• "Wales' Number 8" – I don't believe 'number' needs to be capitalized

Correct (and linked)  Done

• "...John faced the tourists again..." ??
• "...who were beaten in the pack..." ??

Switched to 'who were out-played in the forward positions' and linked forward positions to aid understanding.  Done

• "John was selected for the British Lions in their tour of South Africa in 1968. John played in just four games of the tour..." – "...in 1968, but played in just four games..."

Agree with suggestion.  Done

• "John scored his first international try in the encounter, after charging down a kick and dummying his way over." – Drop the comma

 Done

• "When Ireland came to the Cardiff Arms Park on March..." – spill chock

 Done

• "John took part in his one and only Seven-a-side tournament for Cardiff," – capitalization? And drop the comma

Both addressed.  Done

• "As well as the title, John also won the "Bill Everson - Player of the Tournament" award." – Because "As well" is there, "also" is redundant. Change the hyphen to an en dash?

Also removed, and I have replaced the hyphen with an n dash.  Done

• "A change of tactics by Rowlands, by switching Gerald Davies to the right wing gave Wales a victory over Australia..." – Add comma after "wing"

 Done

• "and a six try victory over Fiji (of which John was replaced by Bennett)" – "in which"?

 Done

• "John recovered in time for the South Africa vs. Wales match on the 24 January..." – Not sure about this, but I think the "vs." should be replaced by an en dash

Switched vs to against.  Done

• "...and was selected along side Edwards." – In American English, alongside is one word. In Wales...?

 Done

• "A home encounter at the Cardiff Arms Park, where Wales faced Scotland." – Not a complete sentence.

Linked this sentence with the one prior to create a sensible sentence.  Done

• "Despite the Scots being 9-0 ahead at one point" – "Scots'". Next sentence has an unapostrophe'd possessive, too.

Changed Scots to Scotland and added the apostrophe to Edwards in the following sentence.  Done

• "...but Ireland, inspired by Barry McGann..." – inspired how?

Couldn't tell you, the book uses that exact phrase and goes no further. Removing.  Done

• "Ireland won 14-0." – Could this be tacked onto the previous sentence. Maybe something like "...made John and Edwards look ordinary in a 0–14 defeat."

 Done

• "In 1971 John was again selected for the British Lions; on their tour of New Zealand." – Something is weird about that semicolon. How about "In 1971, on their tour of New Zealand, John was again selected for the British Lions"?

 Done

• "full house" is italicized in its first instance but surrounded by quotation marks in its second

 Done

• "...though as early as 1965 he remembered being dubbed "King John", by a newspaper sub-editor while still at Llanelli" – Drop the comma

 Done

• "...due to the increased violence in Ulster and the events of Bloody Sunday." – You might say "and the Bloody Sunday massacre" to make a click on that link less necessary for those unfamiliar with the event.
• "Webb stated, that the modern ball is coated in a laminate, has dimpled surfaces, unobtrusive lacing and multi panels. In the seventies the balls soaked up water, swerved all over the place and were placed on muddy and sometimes uneven pitches without the use of tees." – I don't know what these sentences have to do with anything.

I have tried to clear up the quote by stating 'Webb believes John can not be compared to modern kickers because...'

• I'm satisfied. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 00:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• "...and runner up George Best" – I think runner-up should be hyphenated

 Done

• "...his elder brother Delville was three years his senior." – "elder" is redundant

Removed elder, though now I feel that the was should be replaced with being. Thoughts?  Done

• I think a semicolon or en dash in place of the comma is what you want. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 00:55, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• "John was married, to Jan, but since separated." – Maybe "John was married to Jan but has since separated"?

I have added some information about his wife (surname and father) and shuffled the wording around. Hope this is appropriate.  Done

• "...stating that he felt no nostalgia towards the items, that the honour of playing for Wales was all that mattered" – Maybe "...no nostalgia towards the items and the honour of playing..."?

changed as requested.  Done

Factually accurate and verifiable

• I implore you to register all the referenced web pages with WebCite so as not to lose them in the future. Then fill in the |archiveurl and |archivedate parameters in the citation templates.

All citations that contain descriptive text discussing John have been archived through WebCite. I have not yet archived the match reports of the games.

• Regrettably, I don't have access to the books you reference and can only assume your citations are accurate.

Unfortunately assumptions cannot be made. See: Wikipedia:What_the_Good_article_criteria_are_not#(2) Factually accurate and verifiable - "Mistakes to avoid ... Not checking at least a substantial proportion of sources to make sure that they actually support the statements they're purported to support. (Sources should not be "accepted in good faith": for example, nominators may themselves have left prior material unchecked by assuming good faith.)" It's always rather awkward to do a review on an article that relies heavily on print sources that are difficult to obtain, and it's one of the things that needs to be considered before taking on a review. Books on Barry John are going to be easier to obtain in Welsh libraries and bookshops than in American ones; however, sometimes GoogleBooks provides a useful scan, while other sources, such as newspapers, may support the statements, and are worth looking for. What I do sometimes if I can't track down a particular source, is to check the truth of the statement in question by doing a search. If a statement is true and notable, it is likely to mentioned by more than one source. For example: "the 1971 squad is seen as the greatest ever to be fielded by Wales" is supported by a print source, but that can be found on a number of online sources, such as [1]. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I have requested and FruitMonkey has provided photographs of an assortment of pages from the print sources. The statements all check out, as do the web sources that I of course have access to. This GA criterion has been met and then some. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 15:13, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

I checked just one source out of interest because the statement caught my eye - "John stated that the event that drew him to retire from rugby was when a young girl curtsied to him outside the opening of an extension to a local bank, in reference to his nickname." The source doesn't support this statement - it appears to be a source for use of the nickname "the King". I was scrolling through the article to see if there was any mention of "boot money". Barry John was probably the player most associated with that, and some mention of it would be useful for broad coverage. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 21:40, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

From the source: "The final straw came for him when a young girl curtsied to 'The King' as he opened a bank." Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 02:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I have added a section on the bung claims, but I have little to add regarding the claim that John was the player most associated with boot money. I know of internationals who had received lifetime bans for taking money, but nothing of John. There may be several reasons for this, as in Wales rugby players are national heroes, and even though the sport has turned professional, to claim they took money when they were amateur is still a black mark to their names. I have several autobiographies of rugby players and even after switching to league or retiring the players will not state they took bribes. It's hardly surprising that the information is hard to find. The searches online to bungs and John link back to two main articles. The one I have cited in the article and the other is the uncited quote on he Amateur sports article on Wikipedia. FruitMonkey (talk) 08:26, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I have tralled more sources and still nothing on John being heavily connected with boot money. We need to understand that he was never charged with taking illegal money let alone found guilty, and it was widespread in rugby union in those days. This is a BLP issue and we need to be careful of libel here. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Neutral

• My only concern here is that you use a lot of POV phrases, but they probably accurately represent the sources you've cited. Still, consider removing them wherever possible. For example, there's no reason to come out and say that all of his brothers played rugby to a good standard when the next two sentences state their credentials.

I have attempted to remove certain POV phrases to a more neutral stance. Removed a superb, woeful, beautiful, the 'good standard' mentioned above and a few others. Will continue to weed as I come across more. FruitMonkey (talk) 08:43, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Images

• Given the unlikelihood that someone owns and would contribute an unpublished photo of John from his playing days, it would probably be fair use to include a copyrighted one, but this nomination won't fail if you choose not to.

I would love nothing more than a picture of Barry John, in his prime during the Lions tour of New Zealand, but as you may have noticed my efforts have failed. I applied on the strictest historic reasons, but still the images are deleted. If there is a group that specialise in this then I would be happy to speak to them. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't find a deletion discussion page for the most recent image. The first one was deleted because no copyright status was specified. Try uploading another and I'll help with the fair use tags (and defense, if necessary). Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 00:02, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm looking through past image deletion discussions to see what kind of non-free BLP images don't get deleted. It appears that selecting an image that has itself been discussed by a reliable source is one way to do it. Another is to select an image that demonstrates something about his playing style/ability that can't adequately be described with prose. Along those same lines, if someone has described, say, his demeanor or what kind of face he wore while playing, an image that supports it might be considered fair use. I don't know how helpful that will be to you... Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 00:33, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

An image has been added to help represent John during the 1971 Lions tour which is a historical event that can not be recreated. FruitMonkey (talk) 08:05, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Overall, a very well done article. I feared this would be a chore to read, but it wasn't. Good work. I'll watch this page to see what you have to say about my concerns. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 14:35, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

2011/08/11 update: I'm satisfied that the issues I've brought up have been addressed, and you seem like the kind of editor who will continue to refine the article long after I've moved on, so I'm not going to go back and give the article another read-through. The last issue, and I apologize for overlooking it up to this point, is that the lead needs to be longer to summarize the body adequately. As soon as this is taken care of, I'll promote the article to GA. Two Hearted River (paddle / fish) 16:57, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll go back to the lead now, but I will continue to refine the article. Actually, just an hour ago, I order Gareth Edwards autobiography as I would like to get a quote from Edwards in the article, them being such close playing partners. FruitMonkey (talk) 17:06, 11 August 2011 (UTC)