Talk:Battle in Berlin order of battle

Order of battle for the Battle of Berlin

As of 22:37, 31 January 2012 this article was accurately described as Soviet order of battle for Battle in Berlin.

It has now been expanded to become the order of battle for the Battle of Berlin. So I suggest that the changes to this article are reverted. Along with the move and a new article is created. called "Order of battle for the Battle of Berlin". -- PBS (talk) 01:07, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

To explain for example the 2nd Belorussian Front took part in the Battle of Berlin but they did not assault city of Berlin instead they moved east along the Baltic coast. -- PBS (talk) 01:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That really make sense how about some alternative titles like battle for Berlin--Corpusfury (talk) 04:46, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that would be confusing. We have the overview article Battle of Berlin and a sub article Battle in Berlin which is a descriptive title taken from the main article section of the same name. At some point we will probably have another descriptive article title called Battle outside Berlin, but we already have a number of other more detailed articles for the fighting outside Berlin (Battle of the Oder-Neisse, Battle of the Seelow Heights, Battle of Halbe), so the need for such an article is less pressing. -- PBS (talk) 04:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

STOP moving things until we have agreed on what to do!. I am reverting your last moves so we can discuss it. There is no fire and this does not have to be rushed. -- PBS (talk) 05:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Opps!!! is there someone else that has to come to a consensus?--Corpusfury (talk) 05:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I am getting very confused. So let me suggest what it is that I think we should do.

For a start the article needs a definite article before the word "Battle". I suggest that we have two articles:

• Order of battle for the battle in Berlin This will hold the history or the up to the time you started to edit it. It is a lower case battle because it is a descriptive name.
• Order of battle for the Battle of Berlin. This will hold a copy of of your edits to the article you have created with your edits and it will also include the most recent edit to the current article. If this is acceptable to you then I'll make the moves and fix the history of the aricles. -- PBS (talk) 05:28, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Wait so your saying there should be two seperate article one concerning the battle that took place in the city and one that took place outside right before the first one?--Corpusfury (talk) 05:38, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I think that both will be informative. -- PBS (talk) 06:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I just realize what you were talking about be that there are two Seperate article. Man that's really confusing there should be a name change instead of Battle of Berlin we should use the term that the Russians used Berlin Strategic Offensive Much less confusing, and for the OOB I guess this article fit more in line with the Berlin Strategic Offensive. I don't think there should be a seperate article for the Battle in Berlin. But if you insist we can put the OOB in the Battle in Berlin article in of itself.--Corpusfury (talk) 06:52, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I object to that idea because the Order of Battle is far too big to be placed in the articles. That is why they are usually placed in different articles. I see no reason for renaming the article Battle of Berlin because it is the common English language name for the Offensive (just as the Battle of France is the common name for the German offensive into France in 1940).-- PBS (talk) 07:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

If you look at pages like Baltic Offensive,Operation Bagration and Prague Offensive there able to fit there OOB Pretty well given the size and scope of the operation, and given the fact that this battle took place within one city i think that it could be done.--Corpusfury (talk) 07:50, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The reason why the Battle in Berlin exists is because I extracted the detailed information form the Battle of Berlin and added to it. Both articles are 70K in size which is already more than the recommended size for the articles. The three examples you have given are 2 of 15K and one of 45K including the OOB. If you look at the Battle of Stalingrad and other large articles you will find that OOB is one of the first thing to be moved out and handled summary style --PBS (talk) 08:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

If it's because of size issue then we don't put in OOB. But I don't believe there should be a seperate article given fact that this battle happen weeks from each other.--Corpusfury (talk) 08:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Notability would suggest otherwise. There are sources (at least one source) that give the order of battle for battle in Berlin (or assault on Berlin, or "siege" of Berlin). There are sources that give the order of battle for Battle of Berlin (or Berlin offensive operation). Of course, if there was a good way to put all this information to a single page, we could do it, but at the moment I can't think of much...

Furthermore, the source for "battle in Berlin" gave a rather detailed order of battle - down to regiments and divisions. Is there a good reason why all that information was removed from the article ([1])?

And there is one more reason to give the order of battle of assaulting troops: it was a part of one compromise (Talk:Battle in Berlin#Polish troops, [2]) concerning a different article... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 18:58, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes i saw how the pages was before and yes it was very detail down to the regiment level. But I believe in my opinion it was very difficult and cumbersome to navigate through and it wasn't structure very well. Also there not that many Soviet or Russian Units(Which is a shame) on the English Wikipedia. During my look through there were links to units like the 18th Engineer Brigade and the 36th Engineer Brigade that had nothing to do with this page.--Corpusfury (talk) 23:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

If there was only to be one OOB article for the whole campaign, then your edit made some sense. But if there are to be two articles and the red links are objectionable (although in the long run Wikiepdia may well have articles on many of them), then the think to do is to unlink them rather than delete them. However that is subject to there being two OOB articles and it seems that unless you have further objections that is the way we should go. -- PBS (talk) 23:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

How about we use the drop down menu like the one in Battle of Kursk that seem like a Great idea.--Corpusfury (talk) 02:57, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

It does not reduce the size of the article and as far as I an remember there are MOS restrictions on using drop down menus in article space (as opposed to in templates). Again see Battle of Kursk order of battle

We have choices with how to create two articles. I can use administrator commands to split the OOB article (my preferred solution), but to do that I will have to have your agreement (as it could be seen as an abuse of administrative tools if there is not a clear consensus for it). Or any editor can simply move the current article back to its old name and then cleft the article in two by copying the newer stuff to an OOB for the battle for Berlin and reverting you changes to the OOB battle in Berlin, but that is not the most elegant solution as the history of your edits will be buried in one article and the text in another. -- PBS (talk) 08:46, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Alright before we even can begin i would like to see this one source that Martynas Patasius was talking about. I think he meant "Guide to the release of the cities during the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945" which is translated from the Russian texts i found in the original page because i can't seem to find it this on the.--Corpusfury (talk) 10:28, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

You mean "Освобождение городов: Справочник по освобождению городов в период Великой Отечественной войны 1941–1945" from [3]? Er, the title translates as "Liberation of cities: Handbook for liberation of cities in the period of the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945" (you didn't try to rely on Google Translate, did you?)... Its text can be found using Google, for example, [4]. If you will try to read it, remember, that "Germany" in Russian is "Германия", "Berlin" - "Берлин" ("БЕРЛИН" in all caps). And then there are tens of Russian military abbreviations... For example, "ск" means "Rifle Corps", "тбр" - "Tank Brigade"... --Martynas Patasius (talk) 19:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Patasius -- PBS (talk) 21:15, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Yea Google Translate isn't a very good translator, right now i'm trying to read page.--Corpusfury (talk) 22:23, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The article has now been split there are two articles:

• Order of battle for the Battle of Berlin -- The recent edits (from 04:16, 5 February 2012‎ up to and including 10:42, 7 February 2012‎) are now in that article.
• Order of battle for the battle in Berlin -- I have modified the lead and added a blank section for German forces.

--PBS (talk) 21:56, 7 February 2012 (UTC)