Talk:Battle of Annaberg

Title

"Battle of Saint Anne's Mountain" seems to be original research to me; I have only heard of this referred to as the "Battle of (the) Annaberg" (Robert Citino's The German Way of War, as well as GB). Just because English words are used in a title does not mean that it is the title in English. That the mountain is named after Saint Anne can be mentioned, but the article should only be titled as such if reliable sources do so as well. Olessi (talk) 03:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this a reliable source? [1] I bet it is. We can present reliable sources for both German and Polish names of the battle, so let us stick to English. Tymek (talk) 04:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Articles are to be titled with the "the most easily recognized name"; recognizability is determined by reliable sources. I offered a few publications referring to this battle specifically as the "Battle of Annaberg". It is also known as the "Storming of (the) Annaberg" ([2][3]). Norman Davies writes, "Pitched battles, long since legendary, were fought at Góra Św. Anny (Annenberg) [sic]". I found one mention of the battle with the location translated into English, Historical Dictionary of Poland, 966-1945([4]); it does not refer to it as the "Battle of Saint Anne's Mountain". Our convention is not to be politically correct and choose an "English" name instead of a Polish or German name. Our convention is to refer to events by how they are most commonly known in English. In this case, it seems to be as the "Battle of Annaberg" or the "Storming of (the) Annaberg". Olessi (talk) 13:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

As Olessi predicted, the proper "Battle of Annaberg" is known to Google Books, just like "Battle of the Annaberg", and to Google Scholar as well "Battle of the Annaberg", while "Battle of Saint Anne's Mountain" is unknown to Google Books and Scholar, also in other spelling variants. And of course, the ahistorical naming "Battle of Gora Swietej Anny" is totally nonsensical, unknown even to Google itself. Of course, Piotrus did his usual moving, salting & taunting maneuver to prevent a move back, even though he has been warned several times not to do this. -- Matthead  Discuß   10:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

---

Usage of English name, per WP:UE, seems like a reasonable compromise. The battle was much more important for the Poles than the Germans; the use of Polish name would be preferable to the German due to popularity in respective historiograpnies, but again I believe that the English name is a sensible compromise. If one disagree, please use WP:RM to move the article away from the name chosen by the creator of the article. PS. And please, no disruptive moves: [5] - in English, there is no "the" before the town names. What's next, "an Annaberg"? Please... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not talking about the mountain itself, but about the battle which occurred there in 1921. In English publications, this specific event is most commonly known as the "Battle of (the) Annaberg" or "Storming of (the) Annaberg", as far as I can tell. How the battle is known in Polish or German does not matter – we are concerned with how it is known in English. So far, no one has provided any sources referring to a "Battle of Saint Anne's Mountain". Including "the" in the title is a reference to a geographical feature (similar to the Matterhorn), not a reference to the convent or village. Olessi (talk) 00:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting argument. Indeed, English historiography seems to use the German name. I am no longer opposing the Annaberg name, but I'd like to hear from more editors before this discussion ends (particularly from the article's creator, Tymek).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 03:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no time to waste on such trivial things. Change to Annaberg, I do not care. Tymek (talk) 04:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

This all seems so very, very straightforward. Simply put, English-language texts refer to the conflict the conflict is refered to as "Battle of Annaberg" (or "Battle of the Annaberg") and it seems never as "Battle of Saint Anne's Mountain". It matters not one iota whether or not the battle was "much more important to Poles than the Germans".

On a related note, Olessi is correct that the use of the word "the" may be appropriate if referring to a geographical feature (witness "Battle of the Somme", "Battle of the Plains of Abraham" and "Battle of the Nile"). That said, it appears that Battle of Annaberg is the more common.Ffighter44 (talk) 16:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

main expressions not proper/propre & exact !

Poles-Silesians versus Germans ??? - Among the "Germans" were very many Upper and Lower Silesians. And among the "Poles-Silesians" were very many Poles from outside/abroad, it means: from Poland ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.211.14.252 (talk) 01:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Saint Anne's Mountain is in Canada, America

St.Anne's Mountain in google book search results in [http://books.google.com/books?lr=&q=St+Anne%27s+Mountain&btnG=Search+Books exclusive St. Anne's Mountains in Canada , America.

No books at all about St. Anne's mountain refer to Annaberg in Silesia and the Sturm auf Annaberg (storming of (St). Annaberg)

Trying to force the false Saint Anne's Mountain or Battle of Saint Anne's Mountain Wikipedia title seems to be a ploy to make the history of Annaberg, Silesia disappear and/or of spreading incorrect information in Wikipedia. It is O.R.Original Research, as Olessi already states. 71. 2. August 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.192.221 (talk) 17:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Is it my imagination or whenever user Matthead is involved in a discussion, mysterious anons pop out of nowhere and support him. Please register yourself and then we can talk. Tymek (talk) 04:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Length of battle

The main battle took place on May 21, a Polish counter-attack occurred on May 23, a ceasefire was declared on May 26, and further combat occurred on June 4. Should the infobox only list the date of the main battle or should it list the dates of combat operations around the mountain (as is currently done)? Olessi (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Poles took Annaberg on 3/4 May, which has to be considered as the start of the hostilities there, with an occupation of the Annaberg, followed by an assault/liberation later. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

IMO, the infobox should only mention the main battle on May 21, else it should start with the initial capture on the Annaberg at the beginning of the month. Olessi (talk) 21:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

If we focus on the "Sturm" by the Germans, the article should be renamed accordingly: Assault on the Annaberg? Liberation of the Annaberg? I'd say it is better if we widen the scops to include all events during the four or five weeks. -- Matthead  Discuß   01:22, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

If the article focuses on the main conflict of May 21, then "Storm of (the) Annaberg" is the most common designation in English. If the article is to describe the military operation contesting the mountain, then the current title is fine; we would just need to add sources for the date range. Olessi (talk) 22:35, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Matthead, your obvious biases should not cloud historical reality. In the Silesian Uprisings, we had two armed groups of German citizens fighting each other. Neither the Freikorps nor the Polish Silesian volunteers were supported by their governments. The word liberation here is a gross exaggeration - a group of German citizens liberated it from another group of German citizens? Tymek (talk) 16:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"Neither the Freikorps nor the Polish Silesian volunteers were supported by their governments"

- absolutly false ! The support by the Polish administration was huuuuuuge ! (men, material, guns, training, infrastructure money, propaganda, influence etc. - for example: several....panzerzug-s(!); see also: the Polish diversion action "Wawelberg" (by the way: only 1 from 46 commando members was Silesian, the rest from Poland). It´s just an awful desinformation here.

ARTUR, Upper Silesian (since ca.800 years!)

Polish encyclopedias ([6], [7]) give two dates: 21-27 May and 4-6 June. We should do similarly, I think (per sources).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting discussion

To those who are interested in the battle, there is a discussion and a very interesting Polish map here [8]. Tymek (talk) 23:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Illustrations

In addition to photos and maps, we should try to get a photo of the dedicated monument now located on the mountain: [9], [10]. PS. Apparently there was a German monument there, built in 1938, and demolished by Poles in 1945... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Polish commander

Who was the main Polish commander? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed this. It *might* have been Maciej Melzynski], but I think he was commander of the uprising overall, not the battle.VolunteerMarek 22:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

B-class review failed

Needs more inline cites. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 21:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

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why 'indecisive'?

Why is the battle considered 'indecisive'? The Freikorps took the hill. Wouldnt that be 'Tactical German Victory'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.100.50.35 (talk) 19:36, 4 January 2017 (UTC)