Talk:Battle of Kafr El Dawwar

Location

I have added location from the main article.--Ashashyou (talk) 11:20, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Battle? What Battle?

From the article as it stands, and my limited knowledge of the campaign, there doesn't appear to have been a "Battle of Kafr-el-Dawwar".

The Egyptians established a strong position at Kafr-el-Dawwar which the British decided not to attack - sending their forces to Ismailia instead. The two sides faced off for five weeks until matters were decided elsewhere. As the article puts it the lines at Kafr Douar "would have been extremely difficult to take", which is probably why the British didn't try to.

This looks like a "battle" conjured up to give the Egyptians a victory during the Urabi Revolt/2nd Anglo-Egyptian War - which was otherwise pretty much one way traffic in favour of the British.

Chuntuk (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you need to read more about the subject before this superficial judgement.

"A British attempt to break through at Kafr Ed-Dawar (near Alexandria) ended in failure.[[1]] Modern History of the Arab Countries. Vladimir Borisovich Lutsky 1969

"attempt to break through"="a fight = battle"

"Arabi was put down as much by the military science of Sir Garnet as by the courage of the troops under him. The Pasha had sixty thousand men at his command, as against the forty thousand of English, but Sir Garnet led Arabi into believing that the army would land at Alexandria, and probably give him battle at Kafr Dowar, although it was left delightfully vague as to where the actual blow would be dealt. The result was that Arabi really did not know what to do, and deemed that the safest course was to be prepared at all the most likely places, and so he split up his army into three sections, one near Alexandria, one at Cairo, and the third at Tel-el-Kebir, lying between Ismailia, on the Suez Canal, and the capital. Arabi commanded at the latter post." KASSASSIN AND TEL-EL-KEBIR Desert Fights in Egypt Page 269 of The Boy's Book of Battles by Eric Wood [[2]]

"give him battle at Kafr Dowar"="a battle at Kafr Dawwar"

"SITWELL, CLAUDE GEORGE HENRY, Major, was born 18 October 1858. He joined the 85th Foot as Second Lieutenant from the Militia 14 September 1878, and served in the Afghan War, 1879-80, with the Kuram Division, Yarmusht Expedition (Medal). He became Lieutenant, Shropshire Light Infantry, 1 July 1881, and in 1882 served with the Egyptian Expedition, being present at the defence of Alexandria, occupation of Kafr Dowar and surrender of Damietta." AND "STEELE, FREDERICK WILLIAM, Captain, was born 24 January 1858, and entered the 46th Regiment on 11 November 1876. He served with the Egyptian Expedition in 1882; was present at the reconnaissance in force on Kafr Dowar, action at El Magfar and Tel-el-Mahuta, both actions at Kassassin, the Battle of Tel-el-Kebir (Medal with clasp, Bronze Star). in http://angloboerwar.com/index.php/medals-and-awards/non-boer-war/1886-distinguished-service-order-victorian-1886-1902?option=com_grid&gid=24_pq_0&p=19

occupation of Kafr Dowar= a battle

reconnaissance in force on Kafr Dowar = suggests a battle

Kafr Dowar 5th Aug 1882: A reconnaissance in force was sent south to find out the strength and position of Arabi's army. They discovered that the enemy were 9,000 strong and increasing daily. During this reconnaissance there was a skirmish at Kafr Dowar in which Lieutenant Howard Vyse of the KRRC was badly wounded. Private Fred Corbett, also KRRC, stayed with him until help arrived to carry the lieutenant away. While there, Corbett was under constant fire from the enemy, but he tried to stem the bleeding, and when help arrived he assisted in carrying the wounded officer off the field. Corbett received the VC for his bravery. in King royal riffles corps http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces/armyunits/britishinfantry/krrc.htm

'skirmish at Kafr Dowar= a fight that may be a way to dilute or minimize the word of a battle especialy when talking about a lost battle.

"Cries of retire - retire from two Glasgow irish men, that have proved to be cowards or something worse in two occasions when the regiment was before Kafr eldowar". THE BATTLE OF TEL-EL-KEBIR. Waikato Times, Rōrahi XXXIV, Putanga 2778, 3 Haratua 1890, Page 6. http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=WT18900503.2.40.10&l=mi&e=-------10-PubMetaWT-1----0volunteer+public+hall--

'in two occasions= means several fights and that may be a way to dilute or minimize the word of a battle especially when talking about a lost battle.

"But shortly after, a military revolt occurred, and at Kassassin, Tel-el-Kebir, Cairo, and Kafr Dowar, it was crushed by an English Army. IN DARKEST AFRICA BOOKS BY HENRY M. STANLEY http://archive.org/stream/indarkestafricao00henr/indarkestafricao00henr_djvu.txt

at Kassassin, Tel-el-Kebir, Cairo, and Kafr Dowar, it was crushed by an English Army = Battles however this source mentions Kafr dowar as a victory? as a meaning of crushing? notice the order of places might give a hint that explain that Kafr elDowar had another fight after Cairo occupation.

"Fredrick Corbbet of the King's Royal rifles received a Victoria Cross for the battle at Kafr Dowar in 5th August 1882." Victoria Cross book By By Wikipedians Page 41. http://books.google.com.eg/books?id=nczKDLLxAF4C&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=Kafr+el+dowar+fight&source=bl&ots=KnQyhtBYF_&sig=UWz6i9ck1soepTYx5ZLQD-LIhN0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ao0BUpexBImztAbktoEg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Obviously the Cross was earned as a result of fighting in a battle!!!

Page 67 "Fighting around Kafr al-Dawar broke out several times in August 1882. The solid resistance of the Egyptian Army and people made it very difficult for the invaders to occupy Cairo from this direction. They therefore decicded to occupy Suez canal and launch a major attack against the capital from there." Africa Under Colonial Domination 1880-1935 edited by A. Adu Boahen, UNESCO. International Scientific Committee for the Drafting of a General History of Africa. http://books.google.com.eg/books?id=h-Tk_Zr5PagC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=Sir+Garnet+Wolseley%2Bkafr&source=bl&ots=-ucO0KIaQ_&sig=F3TS9GoUI7jBUpPxzsyuLUJRjyg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1I0BUqvHIsiRswbumIDYDw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Garnet%20Wolseley%2Bkafr&f=false

"Fighting around Kafr al-Dawar broke out several times in August 1882. The solid resistance of the Egyptian Army and people" = Several battles?.

"The British Expeditionary Force under Lieut Gen Sir Garnet Wolseley was prevented from advancing on Cairo at Kafr el Dawwar and then went by sea via the Suez Canal to Ismailia." Egyptian Campaign 1882 http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Egyptian_Campaign_1882

prevented from advancing= battle or battles

I could suggest many other Arabic references in needed. In any war or battle you need to hear both side of the fighting.--Ashashyou (talk) 00:43, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I certainly need to research more about this area, which is why I couched my query on this article as a question, rather than a statement of fact. The judgement I reached - superficial or not - was reached primarily by reading this article itself. If there are sources that can be used to bolster it, then maybe they should be. However, many of the ones you cite seem unconvincing to me:

"A British attempt to break through at Kafr Ed-Dawar (near Alexandria) ended in failure." - Lutsky

This would very definitely be a battle, a British defeat, and worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. However, Mr Lutsky does not provide a date on which this event happened, or the forces involved, casualties incurred or any other information. That's not to say that it couldn't have happened, but I'd like to see some corroborating sources before I uncritically accept a 40-year-old Russian account that may have its own political agenda to push.

"Sir Garnet led Arabi into believing that the army would land at Alexandria, and probably give him battle at Kafr Dowar" - Wood

If you read the whole passage, it says that Sir Garnet led Arabi to believe there would be a battle at Kafr Dowar, not that there actually was one. He made a great show of disembarking at Alexandria and preparing for a battle, but the actual blow fell elsewhere.

The "occupation of Kafr Dowar" may mean the occupation of the works after the Egyptian surrender, it's hard to see how it could refer to an attempt to break through those works which was defeated.

A reconnaissance in force on Kafr Dowar definitely took place on 5th August 1882. If that is the engagement that this article describes, then it should say so. However, labelling it as a battle or as a defeat or victory for either side is problematic. The British set out to determine the strength and location of the Egyptian defences, did so, and decided they were too strong to attack. British losses in this action were 2 dead and 3 wounded (taken from a near-contemporary book I have at home), I don't know what Egyptian casualties there were (if any). I suggest that a military engagement with 5 casualties can't reasonably be described as a battle, "skirmish" seems more appropriate to me.

"cries of retire ... on two occasions". I could cry retire whenever I liked, it wouldn't mean I'm in a battle. Your citation talks about when "the regiment was before Kafr eldowar", which suggests to me that they were sitting in fromt of those works, rather than engaged in a battle to break through them.

"a military revolt occurred, and at Kassassin, Tel-el-Kebir, Cairo, and Kafr Dowar, it was crushed by an English Army" - Stanley

I'd interpret this as referring to the seizure of the position at Kafr Dowar after the Egyptian surrender, rather than a battle. If you want to interpret it as a battle, it means we have an undated, undetailed British victory to balance against Mr Lutsky's British defeat - I reckon they cancel each other out.

"Fredrick Corbbet of the King's Royal rifles received a Victoria Cross for the battle at Kafr Dowar in 5th August 1882." I don't see this sentence on the page you refer to. I see a table listing VC recipients, with Corbett winning his VC at Kafr Dowar. There's no mention of the word "battle". You don't have to be in a major military engagement - a battle - to win the VC. Corbett was decorated for his actions on 5/8/1882; as noted above if this article is talking about that action, it should say so.

"Fighting around Kafr al-Dawar broke out several times in August 1882." - Adu Boahen

Again, there are no dates or details given for any of this fighting, but fighting in itself does not necessarily mean a "battle". Opposing armies in close proximity are likely to take pot-shots at each other and skirmish a little, but have to do a lot more than that to constitute a battle.

"The British Expeditionary Force under Lieut Gen Sir Garnet Wolseley was prevented from advancing"

Prevented from advancing by fighting a battle and being defeated? Or prevented by taking a look at the strength of the Egyptian defences and deciding to go elsewhere?

Here's what appears (to me) to have happened, which none of your stated sources (barring Mr Lutsky's) seem to contradict:

After the occupation of Alexandria, a reconnaisance in force took place on 5/8/1882 to gauge the strength of Egyptian defences. This action involved fighting of sufficient intensity for one combatant to win a VC. The British withdrew with light casualties. I wouldn't personally describe this as a battle, or as a defeat for either side; but if this is the engagement referred to by this Wikipedia article, it should say so.

When Wolseley arrived in Alexandria, he learned of the strength to the Kafr al-Dawar position. He disembarked his troops and made as if to attack the position, then reembarked most of them and let it be known that they would land in Aboukir Bay to take the position from the rear (I read this in the Osprey bok on Tel-el-Kebir). Both were ruses intended to get Urabi to move forces from elsewhere. What Wolseley actually did was move most of his forces to Ismailia.

The troops remaining in Alexandria faced up against the troops in Kafr al-Dawar. There was occasional skirmishing between the two sides. The British did not capture Kafr al-Dawar (until after the war), the Egyptians did not capture Alexandria. Neither side was defeated - there simply wasn't a battle between them.

The British army was defeated, in full-blown battles, on a number of occasions in the 19th century. They didn't cover them up - try looking up Maiwand or Isandlwana. If there was a British defeat in a battle in Egypt in 1882, it would have left a trace somewhere. Somebody would have written about where and when it happened, all the people that were killed, and whose fault it was. I don't see any of that in this case.

Chuntuk (talk) 13:24, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Added Later:

Having thought about it a bit, I have a proposal to make. Let's make this article primarily about the action that took place on 5th August 1882. There's a good account of it at http://archive.org/stream/recentbritishba00grangoog#page/n425/mode/2up , albeit from the British point of view. If there are Arabic sources that can bolster this with more information, so much the better.

I wouldn't personally describe this action as a battle, but then I wouldn't describe Rorke's Drift as a battle either and Wikipedia does. Battle or not, it's probably notable enough for inclusion with a VC having been won and the early use of an armoured train in the fighting. Whether or not it was a defeat for either side can be left to the reader, with the link to the Lutsky book as an indication that some authors describe it as a British defeat.

A section on the aftermath can describe Wolseley's arrival and departure, the weeks of minor skirmishing that followed, and the lines' eventual surrender and the description of their strength.

How does that sound?

Chuntuk (talk) 16:19, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

OK, i agree to leaving the article at its currant status. I hope to have some time in the coming weeks to add more detailed references in both English & Arabic.--Ashashyou (talk) 17:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

After working at it on-and-off for a month, I've almost completely rewritten this article. I still wouldn't personally describe it either as a battle or as an Egyptian victory, but there's now enough detail in the article for the reader to make up his own mind. I've kept all of the sources from the previous version, with the exception of the Baedeker passage at http://mountainbunker.org/~maxwell/tei/index-div1-id2413277.html, which only says "Kafr ed-Dawaar was the point at which Arabi erected his strongest fortifications in 1882, after the English had occupied Alexandria and Ramleh." - which I don't think adds much.

I've added and made use of references to a number of books published soon after the war, which describe its actions in great detail - albeit from the British perspective. I've also used a couple of contemporary newspaper reports. More information from the Egyptian side would be welcome.

Chuntuk (talk) 23:41, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

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Cameron Highlanders

"two battalions each of the Highland Light Infantry, Gordon Highlanders and Cameron Highlanders"

There must be some error here since, at this date, the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders (former 79th QOCH) were, uniquely, a single battalion infantry regiment.

Were there two battalions each of the other two regiments mentioned ? My understanding is that from 1880 to 1895 the 1st Bn Highland Light Infantry were stationed in Britain and from 1880 to 1885 the 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders were in South Africa.

The 2nd Bn HLI and the 1st Gordon Highlanders formed part of Allison's Highland Brigade.

JF42 (talk) 13:21, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

You are correct. I found a more detailed orbat here: https://archive.org/details/reportofbritishn00good/page/100/mode/2up?view=theater and it gives the brigade strength at one battalion of each highland regiment. Article corrected accordingly. Chuntuk (talk) 14:51, 4 August 2021 (UTC)