Talk:Battle of Prokhorovka

July 2021 edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "swap images -- map is more useful to the reader as a lead image". Separately, the previous image was a generic tank photo, not specifically related to Prokhorovka; original caption was: "German tanks during Operation Citadel". The Bundesarchiv description dates the image as 21 June 1943. --K.e.coffman (talk) 20:13, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Soviet human losses on July, 12

Hi everyone, I have a question and maybe a suggestion for the article. The article mentions 5,500 men killed, wounded and missing on the Russian (Soviet) side on July, 12. The only reference is Bergström (2007) whose book deals with the air side of the battle... The only other reference I've found (so far) is Zamulin (2011), who writes (table 28 on page 744 of the digital version of his 2011 book) : 2,940 KIA, 3,510 WIA and 1,157 missing as per...16 July. So that is 6450 dead or wounded plus 1157 missing = 7,607 but for Zamulin, the battle lasted from 10 to 16 July. By the way for Glantz & House (1999, p 151, paper) it lasted from 10 to 15 July and for Zetterling & Frankson (2000, p 107, digital) from 12 to 16 July.

• So my question is : does anyone has a better figure for 12 July ?
• My suggestion : shouldn't the article mention that for many historians, the battle didn't last just one day but was in fact a longer phase in the larger Kursk battle ?

Finally. Food for thought (at least for me)  : I have read that Russian MIA figures were always very high. Were they always higher than in other WW2 armies ? Has anyone published interesting info on this? One thing that comes to mind is desertion rate of course.

Thanks in advance. The reason I am asking is (besides interest in the english article of course) that I just made a (heavy) first pass at the french article, which was... dated and I am looking for ways to - hopefully - improve it further. Best,

PS : I think the english article is very good indeed... Domenjod (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• The 2016 Russian edition of Zamulin's book includes a table of losses for the 5th Guards Tank Army on 12 July, in which he added up the losses of the army's component units to give total figures (pp. 799–800): 3,563 total casualties, including 1,505 killed and missing. Equipment losses were 194 tanks and assault guns burned out and 146 disabled for a total of 340 losses. Most likely 5th Guards Tank Army's headquarters did not compile loss figures for 12 July only, as the only loss report for the army covers the start of the battle to 16 July. Russian MIA figures include prisoners of war and the number of missing can be inflated depending on how soon after the battle was made, so I wouldn't say that they were exceptionally high. Kges1901 (talk) 19:43, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks a lot. Regarding the battle's duration (more than one day), I still think it should be mentioned somewhere in the article - and in the lead as well - since so many historians say so. Domenjod (talk) 07:29, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Prokhorovka : The station and the town(s)

Hi everyone. During the war (and the battle). Prokhorovka was only the name of a train station on the Kursk-Belgorod line. The town itself was named Alexandrovskii (or Alexandrovka a declination of the word but I don't speak Russian) and, according to the Wikipedia articles in various languages (German, Russian but not English) that I consulted, was renamed Prokhorovka in 1968. Maybe this should be mentioned in the article - and in the English Wikipedia article Prokhorovka, Belgorod Oblast as well ?

To make things even more complex, the maps in several books relating to the battle (Zamulin, Töppel) display another (very small) place also named Prokhorovka between Krasnyi Oktiabr and Kozlovka (south - west of Hill 226.6 on the Psel river) but I can't identify it for sure on Google map. Anyone has any idea about what happened (name change etc...)? Thanks in advance for your input. Domenjod (talk) 09:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

(Edited) Further to my second point, the map in Zamulin's 2011 book mentions : Prokhorovka (Iudinka) while Google map does display a place named Yudinka. This is probably the answer I was looking for. Domenjod (talk) 18:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Roman Töppel

I have just come accross the book by de:Roman Töppel, see also youTube. In his book "Kursk 1943: Die größte Schlacht des Zweiten Weltkriegs" ISBN 978-3506788672, he states that the German's fully lost five tanks while the Soviets fully lost 196 tanks. He also claims that the number of tanks involved have been exaggerated by the Soviets as a means to justify the losses. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:50, 27 November 2023 (UTC)