Talk:Battle of Shusha (2020)

Problem with infobox.

Hi all. I just noticed a problem with the infobox at the top left. In the "Strength" section, "Per Azerbaijan" and "Per Armenia" appear both at the left side (where all the data about Azerbaijan is), and on the right side it says "Unknown regular military", which I guess correspond to the Azeri forces (It would make sense, considering that only soldiers of special forces are specified for Azerbaijan).

Could you take a look and see if there is something there that needs to be fixed?

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Not A Superhero (talk • contribs) 04:31, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• People in Baku celebrate on the streets after Azerbaijan's President Aliyev said the country's forces had liberated Shusha during the fighting over the breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:54, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Revert war

Dear Haydar Pamuk, looks like you made 4 reverts 1234 in 24 hours on 26 December which is against WP:3RR rule. Do you want to self-revert your last reversion, to avoid potential sanctions? I am not an admin, but this is an opportunity for self-resolving the 3RR violation, in case you did not realise you made more than 3 reverts within 24 hours and that this is not allowed. Regards Armatura (talk) 21:46, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Dear CuriousGolden, looks like you made 4 reverions in 24 hours between 25 and 26 of December 1234 I know you are well aware of the WP:3RR rule, as I remember well last time when you were warned by an admin you chose to abstain from editing NKR-related articles for 2 weeks you claimed that you were not aware of that rule but that you would follow it from now on. In view of repeated violation of same rule, I have escalated this to Administrators notice board.

Dear Rosguill, Jr8825, Ymblanter, Doug Weller I was wondering whether one-revert rule could be applied to this article in view of ongoing edit warring and its relation to hot NKR topic. Regards, Armatura (talk) 01:50, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done in my role as uninvolved administrator--Ymblanter (talk) 08:24, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks, Ymblanter, much appreciated. Regards Armatura (talk) 12:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Ymblanter: Make sure that the editnotice is added – the sanction is ineffective without it KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:48, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, I always forget it. Now done.--Ymblanter (talk) 21:59, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Per WT:GAN, the below was posted at the GA review, which I have removed from the same editor. You can do with this whatever is suitable: (— Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:50, 28 December 2020 (UTC))

This is a very poorly written and biased account. It suffers from serious historic lacunas and sourcing. Regarding sourcing, a number of the initial sources are from state-sponsored news organisations such as the Azeri News Service. These are government funded media organisations for the most part. I refer you to the 2020 freedom of the world press rankings. Azerbaijan ranks 168 from 180 ciuntries: https://rsf.org/en/ranking The point is here to cite more non-biased sources from 180 countries. Secondly, the entry provides detailed demographic history on the 'predominant' Azeri majority in the town of Shusha/Shushi but fails to mention that Armenians accounted for the clear majority of Shusha/Shushi prior to a well documented Azeri massacre in the March of 1920. This is documented by official census data: "According to the Great Soviet Encyclopedia (Third Edition, 1970), these events contributed to the death of 2,096 of the city's population. Subsequently, only a few Armenian families remained.[17]" Source: Great Soviet Encyclopedia, vol. 17, London, Collier Macmillan, 1973, p. 301. quoted by Tim Potier. Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia: A Legal Appraisal. ISBN 90-411-1477-7.

In addition, I refer you to Oxford academic S. Neil MacFarlane regarding the change in demographics in Shusha/Shushi following the March 1920 massacres against the Armenians by Azeri forces. Source: Neil MacFarlane, Oliver Thränert,, Balancing hegemony: the OSCE in the CIS, Centre for International Relations, 1997, p. 71 "Another event of the period was the massacre in March 1920 of Armenians in Shusha, the historic centre of Karabakh, which shifted its ethnic status from an Armenian-dominated town to an Azeri-dominated one."

The point is that while this entry refers to the battle of Shusha of 2020, it makes a number of incomplete historic demographic claims about an Azeri majority prior to the 2020 war; yet it fails to source and reference the ethnic cleansing Azeri forces executed in March of 1920 resulting in the Azeri "majority" following deliberate ethnic cleansing. If reference is made to demographics, one needs to address the massacre of the Armenians in 1920 too. Here is a third source on the change in demographics: Brook, Stephen (1993). Claws of the crab: Georgia and Armenia in crisis. p. 326. In the 1920s a massacre of Armenians led to an Azeri majority in the town. Clearly, this entry is lacking in historical accuracy and suffers from extremely poor seourcing.

Considering the biased sourcing and historical gaps in this entry, it should be open to improvements as this is a historic event of great import.Haydar Pamuk (talk · contribs) 14:33, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Who the hell cares? Balkanite (talk) 20:26, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Stop Deleting the truth. Artsakh has existed for thousands of years, and Shushi is the real name of the city. Azerbaijan's oil bought the land without Armenias consent. Putin is a criminal.

I would like to know why this article glorifies Azerbaijan but it leaves out the truth. That Azerbaijan was fighting side by side with Syrian Jihadist Mercenaries, and Turkish Special Operations Forces. Why does it leave all the truth iut, and only glorify their success without showing the terrorist supporting side and face of Azerbaijan. Ilham is a criminal. SoulBlader (talk) 13:51, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Anyone who disagrees can go sit on this thumb. SoulBlader (talk) 13:52, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Dear SoulBlader, may I suggest chilling out and take a day off from editing, please, for your own sake? Regardless of the point you are trying to make, "Anyone who disagrees can go sit on his thumb" goes against WP:CIVILITY. Saying this as one of the Armenian editors of Wikipedia. It may well be the case that Aliev and Putin are indeed criminals (dictatorship is a crime, although a few courts in the world able to prove it), but that has to be in credible publications in order to be added to Wikipedia, this is how Wikipedia works. With best regards Armatura (talk) 17:46, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Removal of clarify tag

@Chipmunkdavis: Hey, I've removed the {{clarify}} tag you added in this edit, as there was no explanation for it and "where Azerbaijan recorded victory" was already clarified as "in the war" in the first half of the sentence. Let me know if there was another reason for the tag and I can self-revert my edit. Happy New Year by the way. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 20:15, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy New Year to you too. I added it because I'm not sure what "recorded victory" means in that context. CMD (talk) 01:28, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

There remains no explanation, and no use in the cited sources, as to what it means for Azerbaijan to have "recorded a victory", at any level of English. There is no scoring system for war. CMD (talk) 06:24, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Chipmunkdavis removed that recording thing, don't remember where I got it. How is it now? --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:45, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, the new wording works. CMD (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Result

"A decisive victory is a military victory in battle that definitively resolves the objective being fought over, ending one stage of the conflict and beginning another stage. Until a decisive victory is achieved, conflict over the competing objectives will continue." (wikipedia definition of a decisive victory). not only did this battle end a stage of the war, it ended it completely. and Azerbaijan's goal which was the conquest of nagorno karabakh was obtained because of the ceasefire which was a direct result of the victory. Azerbaijan retained the areas of Nagorno-Karabakh that it captured during the war, all Armenian-occupied territories surrounding Nagorno-Karabakh ceded back to Azerbaijan by 1 December 2020. this is a classic example of a battle which ended in a Decisive Azeri victory. Durraz0 (talk) 19:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Durraz0, for as I know, that part removed per {{Infobox military conflict}} documentation, which says:

result – optional – this parameter may use one of two standard terms: "X victory" or "Inconclusive". The term used is for the "immediate" outcome of the "subject" conflict and should reflect what the sources say. In cases where the standard terms do not accurately describe the outcome, a link or note should be made to the section of the article where the result is discussed in detail (such as "See the Aftermath section"). Such a note can also be used in conjunction with the standard terms but should not be used to conceal an ambiguity in the "immediate" result. Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much.

Though it is by now a fact that the Azerbaijani victory was decisive, I think this particular quote urges editors to omit using the word "decisive" in the infobox. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 23:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

SolaVirum, well i have seen examples of articles which have the good article batch which use the term decisive victory. a notable example would be the operation storm article. The quote seems to be talking a lot about speculation however it is no speculation that this battle fits under the description of a azeri victory which led to the end of the war AKA a decisive victory. sincerely Durraz0 (talk) 08:42, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Jr8825, EkoGraf what do you think about this? --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 10:01, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Durraz0, adding it as no one objected. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Note to potential GA reviewers—unstable

The article history indicates that it is not exactly stable[1] so take that into account. (t · c) buidhe 00:22, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Wording regarding Idealist Hearts/Grey Wolves institution being built

@CuriousGolden:, I made changes in this article previously regarding the description of the Idealist Hearts/Grey wolves school being built, adding context for the fascist nature of the organization, which you reverted later. I wanted to discuss with you to see if there is an agreeable way ini which I can add this context back, it seems appropraite to include context for the organization. What is your reasoning against it? Achemish (talk) 00:29, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Analysis

Hello. Modern War Institue have published an article about this battle and included an analysis of it. I hope some editor would add it. 185.81.81.2 (talk) 22:57, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Listing Free Syrian Army as belligerent

I've reverted this edit, because it's problematic. Source used in this edit, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR), copypasted material from an article from Al-Masdar News which has a reputation for propagating disinformation. (read this section) Therefore, it is not a reliable source. NMW03 (talk) 15:23, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Here is the syriahr source

https://www.syriahr.com/en/191549/

The source says "According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR)," which is itself, but at the bottom it has Almasdar link as a source.

The link is dead, but if we look at its archive

https://web.archive.org/web/20201107074034/https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/syrian-mercenary-losses-keep-climbing-in-karabakh-as-azerbaijan-tries-to-capture-strategic-city/

It too is citing SOHR as a source

Both of those sources were added November 7

However, here is the original SOHR source, which was posted November 6

https://www.syriahr.com/en/191389/

So SOHR was the original source, not Almasdar. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 11:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kevo327, source you provided does not mention the "Shusha Battle." It primarily focuses on the arrival of Syrian mercenaries' bodies in Syria, the casualties among the Turkish-backed factions in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, and the challenges Turkey faced in recruiting fighters for the conflict due to sectarian factors and casualties. There is no reference to the specific "Shusha Battle" in this source. We have Allegations of third-party involvement in the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War § Turkey and Syrian National Army article NMW03 (talk) 18:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The Syrian mercenaries weren’t an allegation, they were verified by many reliable and independent sources, just has their participation in this battle was verified by SOHR, a very credible source. I'll restore if there are no further disagreements. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 11:00, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would respond to my concern about SOHR not mentioning the battle NMW03 (talk) 11:36, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

the SOHR source very clearly says “… into the battle for Shusha”. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 17:51, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

We already talked about the previous link/article. That article is complicated. SOHR shows Al-Masdar as source, Al-Masdar shows as SOHR. I think firstly you too understood the complexity here and found the original source. But orijinal source does not mention the "Shusha Battle". NMW03 (talk) 18:36, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

The only thing I talked to you about is that SOHR is the original source, as already explained to you in a very clear manner with proof. SOHR source [2] very clearly says “… into the battle for Shusha”, and articles do get updated, that's a thing in case you're not aware. If you can't grasp this, I suggest you disengage from the discussion. I'm going to restore reliably sourced content, as it should be. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 18:24, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

These two articles are almost same; Both articles talks about participation of Syrian mercenaries in the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and their significant casualty count. The second article, which is a citogenesis, talks about the their participation in Shusha battle with one sentence. Solely the second article mentions the battle. If this is indeed accurate, the question arises as to why the first article omitted it. As I mentioned above, the reliability of the second article is questionable. According to WP:REDFLAG, "any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources". Please provide multiple sources for your claim and refrain from reverting without achieving consensus. NMW03 (talk) 20:45, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

You keep changing your arguments by every comment, now it's "redflag"? What is this and how do you expect others to see good faith in your comments? Because you just jump the ship every time your previous argument fails, and try to come up with something new to keep arguing. Nothing redflag about an extremely reputable source, also nothing exceptional about Syrian mercenaries fighting in Karabakh. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 06:24, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

linkfix

please replace https://archive.ip/WP6KR with http://web.archive.org/web/20210108225459/https://news.milli.az/society/905472.html ⵓ (talk) 12:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Azerbaijani uprising 1918

хз 95.153.161.130 (talk) 17:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Karabakh Front 1918

Porno 95.153.161.130 (talk) 17:52, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Baku

Porno 95.153.161.130 (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2023 (UTC)