Talk:Battle of Varna

Absurd numbers

The numbers listed are just ridiculous. The Christian coalition most certainly did not number 86,000 men, much less 200,000. That's utter nonsense. Medieval armies weren't that big. The Christians had at most 23,000, but probably more like 15,000. The Ottoman army was certainly no larger than 60,000, but probably closer to 30,000 or 40,000. These articles need to ban these absurd inflated numbers and stick to the sober scholarly estimates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hutin5432 (talk • contribs) 08:32, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I believe that every battle must be based on sources from both sides and not be satisfied with the point of view of Western historians only, as the amplification is always directed against the Ottomans. Yuoo988 (talk) 15:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Questionable source

There are certain conclusions on the page concerning Đurađ Branković's role in the christian defeat in this battle; while the books with credible research do not contain such information, there is a source from the book called Heavenly Serbia: From Myth to Genocide. It is written by a badly received, not overly credible, Croatian dissident. The very book that is taken as a source is heavily criticized for not being objective. And the very fact that Branković betrayed the crusaders can't be found in other sources other than this revisionist title. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.228.107.240 (talk) 11:33, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

[Untitled]

Where do some people get these inflated numbers, the Ottoman army at that time was not bigger then 30000/35000. Even at their hight the Ottomans were unable to form such large armies. It seems to me that people write down what they think it should be instead of putting real history. There are also no articles to back up the claims made in this article.

wrong numbers

Following information about the battle is not precise but much closer to the real numbers. For more information refer to another website. Or a history book will be better.

Strengths of Armies (total number of soldiers) Turkish Army - 40000 Crusader Army - 100000

Losses Turkish Army - 15000 Crusader Army - 65000 (including the Hungarian King Vladislas, who had given his word some time before the battle to the Turks that he wouldn't fight against them. He should have kept his word. He was a brave man though.)

• Stop using huge numbers for the strengths of the Ottoman armies. 120.000 was an impossible number for the time of the Battle of Varna. Ottoman armies started to contain 100,000(+) soldiers with the Siege of Constantinople. Varna was before the conquests of Mehmet the Conqueror. With respect, Deliogul 07:49, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I have red that The Ottomans managed to gather 70,000 men(50,000 arabs and 20,000 Turks). The crusader army was huge, up to 325,000, according to new researches. It seems like an impossible number, but there were so many allies that they succeeded gathering such huge army.

With respects the battle of Varna was just ten years prior to the siege and fall of Constantinople so I think that might be a bad basis for how many soldiers the Ottomans could not have had. 68.48.160.243 23:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Just checked a couple of Hungarian history books. According to them, the Turkish Army was between 40,00 and 60,000 strong, while the Hungarian army was maybe 20-25,000 strong. The largest crusading army on the Balkans was the one defeated at Nikopolis in 1396, and even that was no stronger than 80,000 at most. Whelp 13:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

According to britannica online, Murad II brought to the field thrice the force of crusaders. reference for this is: Battle of Varna. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved October 17, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/623523/Battle-of-Varna Also about 210000 dead out of an alleged 325000 strong crusader army... Were the Turks armed with machine guns? That kind of casualty rates belongs to 20th century, i think. About arab mercenary force of 40000: at its glory, the byzantine treasury could pay for that much mercenaries, after long preparations. This is clearly beyond the means of Murad. And how can he access Arabs? Maybe turcomans of anatolia, which is also unlikely, since ottomans were at odds with other anatolian beys. I think, some anatolian allies or vassals, though probably not more than a fraction of the ottoman troops, joined the battle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ragharok (talk • contribs) 08:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

the numbers over 40000 is unlikely for both armies in this era. ottoman empire hadn't any arabian provinces and its borders was far away from arabian lands that time. so it's unlikely to them having any arabian cavalry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.85.132 (talk) 13:11, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Around 50,000 to 60,000 troops for Ottomans and 30,000 to 40,000 for Crusaders Uzair Ansari333 (talk) 23:25, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Uzair Ansari333 - Please cite which Reliable published sources you are referring to in order to obtain those figures - Thank you - Arjayay (talk) 12:04, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Image from Polski Chronicle

Can someone confirm that this is a picture of the battle? The picture is from Polski Chronicle from 1564.

I see crosses on the eight of the flags on the right (the one in the center is fluttering on a cavalry horn); and I see crescent moons on two of the flags on the left. So, it would seem this is a battle between christians and moslems. Beyond that I don't know. And, that's probably as much as others have noticed. 68.48.160.243 00:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

sources and links

I believe Wikipedia to be a fantastic idea however I wish contributors would aknowledge their sources and more importantly not copy other sites verbatem. For example this wording is straight from my website http://www.warfareeast.co.uk/main/Hungarian_Battles.htm#Varna

(formally http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/matthaywood/main/Hungarian_Battles.htm#Varna)

'the Hungarian army was smaller and very imbalanced. It contained almost no infantry, except 100 to 300 Czech mercenary handgunners. There were also 100 warwagons probably with crews, though none are mentioned. The rest of the army was heavy cavalry, mostly Royal and foreign mercenaries, with some Episcopal and Noble banners as well. '

and this from this article

'The Hungarian army was smaller and very imbalanced. It contained almost no infantry, except 100 to 300 Czech mercenary handgunners. There were also 100 warwagons probably with crews, though none are mentioned. The rest of the army was heavy cavalry, mostly Royal and foreign mercenaries, with some Episcopal and Noble banners as well.'

please reword it or link to the original source.

"By this time the Turkish army may have contained 60,000 men (probably Murad himself did not know how many he had) almost outnumbering the Christians by three to one." The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571 Vol.2:The Fifteenth Century (p.90) by Kenneth Meyer Setton

"...In due course the sultan arrived at Varna with his army of between 60,000 and 100,000 men, as against only 19,000 to 20,000 for the Christians." East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000-1500 (p.247) by Jean W.Sedlar Lysandros 18:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Problems with the article

First, I think "Aftermath" and "Follow up" are really the same thing and should be one section. Moreover "Aftermath" largely tries to be the section on the battle itself, which is missing. We need a section titled something like -oh, I don't know- The Battle. Plus I expect the decription of battle could be fleshed out a bit more. Someone attacked without waiting for someone else and died, and that was it. Well, that might actually go farther to represent what happened than I thought. But still, there must have been other things that happened also.

Also, it reads "Władysław III of Poland", but then it goes on to read "The death of Władysław III in the battle left Hungary in the hands..." Am I missing something here? So just which country was Wladyslaw king of exactly? (Sounds Polish to me, but I'm not just taking a guess on this one.)

And, what was Janos Hunyadi? Was he the king of Hungary? Or something else? A respected knight perhaps? It just seems unfair to the guy that folks haven't bothered to put what he was. Like, oh Hunyadi? Don't worry about him. Not important. Won't be on the test.

Oh and the bit about the Bulgarians "affectionate" nickname for Wladyslaw... I can't help but think that may be cynical sarcasm. The Bulgarians especially during the Byzantine era are known for an ironic, sometimes cruel, sense of "affection".

My last thought is that, except for elite mercenaries such as the Czechs, historians of the era were known for an infantry-don't-count kind of attitude. Not only that, but historically you could count on knights bringing about twenty plus or minus bonus men-at-arms with them to the field of battle. At least a handful of who were indispensable as support for the knight. Not that I think the numbers on the size of the united Christian army were wrong. I just think that a much larger portion of them were infantry than has been suggested. But, since historians haven't felt like mentioning them much, and because I suspect the infantry didn't do much in the battle before things had already gone very very bad, I think they've been over-looked. 68.48.160.243 01:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Wladyslaw II of Poland was Wladyslaw I of Hungary - elected as Hungarian king in 1440 by the Hungarian nobles opposing Habsburg influence. Janos Hunyadi, at the time of Varna, was voivode of Transylvania. As to the composition of the Hungarian army, it was really mostly cavalry - as the mercenary infantry refused to embark on a traitorous campaign (if I remember correctly). Whelp 14:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If anything is cynical, it is your comment on Bulgarians. From where exactly did you get the impression that they were "known" for "an ironic, sometime cruel, sense of "affection"? Please, do not make such childish and racist remarks, especially wneh they are not backed up by any proof. If you wish, I can show you a map of Varna or any random Bulgarian publication regarding the battle and Wladyslav, all of which prove you wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.83.252.114 (talk) 08:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Further reading

I have added a link to the article, it seems only the Introduction is available online, but even that contains a lot of information. I don't have the time (or, honestly, the interest) to go through and extract/write up all of it for this article, but it could help it significantly, perhaps even with the mentioned sourcing issues for the numbers. I can only imagine how much more information the full book has, if anyone can get hold of that. -Bbik 07:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

1444 there wasnt guns

i see in this article the talk of infantry and gunmen and such things...if its 1444 there isnt any guns then...so if you actually did research for this then you would know that...maybe they had archers but not gunmen for sure...when you read stuff like this it just makes everything thing youve done for this "project" seem absolutely pointless...please know what your talking about before you write something in here. your spreading stupidity —Preceding unsigned comment added by Newageweirdo (talk • contribs) 02:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Old post but deserving of an answer. Infantry means foot soldiers - guns, spears, rocks, whatever. There may have been Ottoman cannon at Varna, they certainly existed then, as did handguns but I can see no evidence they were used. Doug Weller talk 14:02, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

It wasn't until the matchlock gun arrived in the 1400s that guns became effective as hand-weapons, but hand-cannons had been around since 1350 .. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.31.62 (talk) 18:59, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Arabs on camels?

Sounds like fiction. Any source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.106.212.33 (talk) 16:21, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Arab cavalry? which source is talking about arabs, in 1444, ottoman had not rule on arabs,had not rule on all anatolian turks yet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yetjanissary (talk • contribs) 15:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

• There were no Arab cavalry or Arabs on camels in the Ottoman armies in Europe, let alone at this early date (1444) when the Ottoman lands did not even touch any area that has a population of Arab origin to recruit from. These errors are the most glaring ones that exist among many others. Being fair minded I have put in a citation required mark at these errors. However, if no reputable unbiased citations are given, I shall have to change that section. Noyder (talk) 19:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

LoL... Perhaps it was the elusive Balkan camel? :) --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 20:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

It has been a year and noone has provided citations for the elusive Arabian mercenaries and camels. I am going to remove them. If anyone has reliable sources feel free to add them back. Robert Willie (talk) 20:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

There were actually camels in the battle, I don't believe there were any sizeable Arabs in the battle Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Are you kidding me??

So 5 European Kingdoms can form an army of only 20000 soldiers, while the Ottomans who have settled in Anatolia recently form armies of 60000-100000 soldiers.

Even if the Ottomans used Arabs in their army they still would not be able to form such huge armies. We are talking about the middleages not about the 18-19 century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arsaces (talk • contribs) 07:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

western hypocrisy oozes from all parts of this article. a horde of crusading kingdoms join their forces and still the ottoman army outnumbers them 1 to 3 ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.121.235.112 (talk) 11:11, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Although it reads like a rant I'll take this seriously. See European Warfare, 1350–1750 edited by Frank Tallett, D. J. B. Trim[1] ""Some notion of the disproportionate (even asymmetric) size of the two armies at Varna can be gleaned from Inalcik’s account of the battle.11 He suggests that the crusaders set out with a force of 16,000 knights collected from Hunyadi’s allies and his own cohorts. Drawing only on internal sources, the Ottomans mobilised 30,000 to 40,000 troops from Anatolia who were joined by a further 7,000 Rumelian troops following their crossing of the Gallipoli Straits into Rumelia. When the volunteer and self-mobilising akinci forces are included, it seems probable that an Ottoman force totalling nearly 60,000 took the field against the invading crusader army of 16,000. This disparity in army size, already apparent in the 1440s, remained characteristic of Balkan confrontations until the early decades of the eighteenth century. For example, in the summer of 1717 an Ottoman grand vizier, Halil Pasha, led a force of approximately 150,000 troops to attempt the rescue of the 7,000-strong garrison defending Belgrade. He encountered a besieging force led by Eugene of Savoy, that had began the campaign with a nominal strength of 80,000, but that had been so depleted by disease, desertion, and casualties by the later phases of the siege in early August that its numbers had shrunk to no more than 50,000." Doug Weller talk 14:14, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

yes, the problem of such huge forces in pre-industrialized times was logistics - clothing and feeding such large numbers of men (and pack animals); shortly after the Roman Civil Wars, Augustus was in control of a military force of almost half a million men - this was a number that would have been impossible to sustain (and politically dangerous to maintain) - he settled 3/4's of these soldiers and established a military of about 150,000 - this was not too great a burden on the civilian populace to maintain - the Mongols were only able to get 200,000 or so into the field by using massive amounts of extra horses packing food, and foraging off the land - but that land had to be able to sustain their mounts if they were to stay in the area for any appreciable length of time - large forces' discipline will break down quickly when they begin to get really hungry and no supplies are available - Alexander was able to operate because he had superb supply trains in his wake, and when this was disrupted by his stretching his forces too far, things began to fall apart - the numbers of men involved in this battle should always be thought of moderately - if numbers seem too great, then they most assuredly are . . . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.31.62 (talk) 18:53, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Artillery and handguns

The article says without sources that bombards were used by the Christian armies. This[2] agrees, saying the Ottomans probably had none, and this[3] says Hungarian cannon were successfully used against the Ottoman calvary. But this[4] suggests they had them with them at least, and this[5] says the Ottomans had gunpowder weapons. A search for arquebuses looks useful. Doug Weller talk 14:27, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Are you working on the article? Alexis Ivanov (talk) 04:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Contradiction in the article

At the top right the article refers to the Ottomans taking minimal casualties (doesn't look to reference a source). Whereas at the bottom of the article it makes reference to Ottoman casualties being severe to the point of the Sultan not being aware they had won the battle until 3 days later.

It can't be both? 2404:4408:877E:A000:E831:1005:A412:5C40 (talk) 01:52, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I made a change to the infobox. Ktrimi991 (talk) 07:36, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

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Status of the sources in the infobox

The state of the sources in the infobox is catastrophic. The article is constantly reverted into a variant in which preponderance is given to completely unreliable sources that do not meet the requirements of Wikipedia. Extreme weight is given to several Turkish sources whose data are drastically different from those in the cited modern English-language Academic sources. Besides, these Turkish sources are 60 years old and are not academic. Sources over 100 years old and even sources several centuries old are also used here. Academic English-language modern sources are presented as the least significant and pushed into a corner. There are also mathematical absurdities, such as, for example, most academic English-language reliable sources state that the Crusader army numbered between 30 and 40 thousand people, and finally the Turkish source states that 65 thousand of them were killed. This is absolutely unacceptable. Jingiby (talk) 11:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi Jingiby, there is a detailed book about it (I have it): John Jefferson - The Holy Wars of King Wladislas and Sultan Murad The Ottoman-Christian Conflict from 1438-1444 OrionNimrod (talk) 12:55, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi OrionNimrod, I assume that both in it and in other sources there is information about the participants and victims of the conflict. What does it say about this? Jingiby (talk) 14:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Jingiby, that is a really long detailed book [6] and I did not read it now, I used it for the battle of Iron Gates and other Hunyadi's battles. Maybe I can send you by email private.

A modern Hungarian: Tamás Pálosfalvi - From Nicopolis to Mohács, A History of Ottoman-Hungarian Warfare, 1389–1526 [7] this is also a very long regarding Varna, I did not read at the moment

Another book what I have: Stephen Turnbull - The Ottoman Empire 1326–1699 [8]

He writes 4x Turkish overpower:

"The two opposing forces met in battle near Varna on the Black Sea in November 1444. Hunyadi had chosen a strong position between the end of a marsh and the bay. Scouts brought news that the Turkish Army was scarcely 4,000 paces away and numbered at least 60,000 men. Cardinal Cesarini argued that they should make a defensive enclosure with the wagons, as had been done successfully in the past. Hunyadi was for launching an immediate attack, but his hand was forced by news that the Turks were already advancing, so the wagons were hastily arranged. The Wallachians took the left wing and the Hungarians took the right. King Wladislaw III, who was suffering from an abscess on his leg, was placed in the position of greatest safety in the centre where his Polish and Hungarian bodyguards surrounded him. The Sultan pitched his tent on top of a hill, and legend tells that near to it he fixed the treaty of peace that the Hungarians had repudiated prominently on a pole. He had four soldiers for every one in the Hungarian Army. His Anatolian troops were on the left wing and his European troops were on the right."

Casualties:

"Unlike the king, the experienced Hunyadi was not fooled into thinking that the lurks were already beaten, because as he travelled round the battlefield he could see that the crusader army was hard pressed at every point. At this point, according to the chronicler Chalkondylas, some knights near the king who were jealous of Hunyadi urged the young monarch to win some glory of his own and the next time Hunyadi returned to the royal command post his king had gone. Finding him enveloped within a cloud of lanissaries, Hunyadi attempted his rescue, but it was not long before the King of Hungary's head in its silver helmet was being waved on the point of a Turkish spear. From that moment on the crusaders were lost, but the battle had been so bloody and so evenly balanced up to that point that it was not until the following day that Murad II realised that he had won the greatest Turkish victory since Nicopolis"

This is from the biggest Hungarian military history book:

https://mek-oszk-hu.translate.goog/09400/09477/html/0010/752.html?_x_tr_sl=hu&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=hu&_x_tr_pto=wapp

https://mek-oszk-hu.translate.goog/09400/09477/html/0010/754.html?_x_tr_sl=hu&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=hu&_x_tr_pto=wapp OrionNimrod (talk) 14:59, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I suggest that the article be changed to the version in which only reliable sources are used in the info box, respectively 60 thousand Ottoman soldiers and 30-40 thousand crusaders. Jingiby (talk) 06:30, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Jingiby, there are many kind of estimations by different historians, I think we can show more if they are reliable sources.

The Banlaky Hungarian military history book what I linked here writes this: 20,000 (6,000 Hungarians, 5,000 troops by Hunyadi, 4,000 Polish cavalry, 4,000 Wallachian cavalry, 1,000 Crusaders recruited by Cesarin against 40,000 Ottomans.

This is a Hungarian history journal [9] it writes 50,000 Ottomans and 20,000 Crusaders "although the number of Hunyadi's armies still barely reached 20,000."

Pál Engel - Realm of St. Stephen - A History of Medieval Hungary, 895-1526 [10]: "On 10 November 1444 at Varna the Ottoman army, numbering perhaps 40,000 men, annihilated the allied forces"

I think we need read the relevant chapters from these books, these are very detailed:

John Jefferson - The Holy Wars of King Wladislas and Sultan Murad The Ottoman-Christian Conflict from 1438-1444

Tamás Pálosfalvi - From Nicopolis to Mohács, A History of Ottoman-Hungarian Warfare, 1389–1526 OrionNimrod (talk) 08:42, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

OrionNimrod, as far as I understand, the various sources presented by you describe the army of the anti-Ottoman forces as 20 thousand men, and the Ottomans themselves as 40 to 50 thousand soldiers. Do you have any specific ideas to resolve the issue?Jingiby (talk) 09:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean "issue" exactly? That is a medieval battle, that is why historians had different estimations. I think just we can present many estimations and mark the sources, and everybody can see the estimation from where. We can see this in other medieval battle articles. Of course we need present reliable academic historians and not 500 years old sources. Especially medieval Ottoman sources quite strange, for example they say 200-300,000 Hungarian at battle of Mohacs which is quite nonsense and unrealistic and of course in medieval Ottoman sources the sultan is "God" and Hunyadi is "Evil" and they are silent about the lost Ottoman battles. OrionNimrod (talk) 09:56, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Btw, do you have more other modern sources what we could use regarding this battle? OrionNimrod (talk) 09:57, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

What I see into the article at the moment is that the number of the Ottomans which was 50 up to 60,000 is backed by the following sources: 1. Frank Tallett, D. J. B. Trim. European Warfare, 1350–1750. Cambridge University Press, 2010. p. 143; 2.Jean W. Sedlar. East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000–1500. University of Washington Press, 2013. p. 247 and 3. Stephen Turnbull. The Ottoman Empire 1326–1699. Bloomsbury Publishing. 2014. p. 32. On the other hand the number of the anti-Ottoman sources which was around 30,000 is backed as follows: 1. Frank Tallett, D. J. B. Trim. European Warfare, 1350–1750. Cambridge University Press, 2010. p. 143, and 2. Jean W. Sedlar. East Central Europe in the Middle Ages, 1000–1500. University of Washington Press, 2013. p. 247. Jingiby (talk) 10:08, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that are not extreme numbers. Do you own that sources, I mean can you read or access them to check what they say exactly? I think the provided Hungarian sources similar just slightly say lower numbers on both sides. Still need to read these, as here the battle is very long chapter:

John Jefferson - The Holy Wars of King Wladislas and Sultan Murad The Ottoman-Christian Conflict from 1438-1444

Tamás Pálosfalvi - From Nicopolis to Mohács, A History of Ottoman-Hungarian Warfare, 1389–1526

I dont see any problem to provide more academic estimations as I can see this way in other medieval battle articles, those are just "estimations" as it was in medieval times. Just they need be reliable academic sources and I agree with you not 500 years sources. But modern historians also use those old sources just with different conclusion. OrionNimrod (talk) 11:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

OrionNimrod, I agree with you. Feel free to remove the outdated, self-published and other unreliable sources with modern, Academic ones. Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 15:48, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2024

Simon Rozgonyi has a page but there is no link on the page of the battle of Varna. So just add [[ ]] around his name. Resikas (talk) 20:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Charliehdb (talk) 15:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)