Talk:Bay Ridge, Brooklyn

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 15:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Page looks good

Whoever cleaned this up did a nice job. Taking out links that are not Bay Ridge specific was a good idea. This page should just be for the community, not political or religious.

Unbiased

I made some edits to reflect the anti-Arab tinge of the most recent edit. Bay Ridge is a diverse neighborhood, not a predominatly Catholic neighborhood with small Arab minorities. It seems that this page needs to be closely monitored becuase anti-Arabs sentiment, as well as pro-Arab boasting, seems to be bickering back-and-forth. My guess is that racists on both sides are trying to get their points across.

Clean up

This article is in need of some serious NPOV clean up. It is littered with statements that are biased and is not written in an encyclopaedic tone. Páll ^{(Die pienk olifant)} 09:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this article is in need of major editing...that is not representative of Bay Ridge. How is the section on the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge to be considered an encyclopedia entry on a neighborhood?! Arabs make up a small part of the population of Bay Ridge, yet someone gave them their own section...if you're going to do that then you need to write a section on the Irish, Norwegian, Italian, and Greeks of the neighborhood too.

Islamic Society of Bay Ridge

I would be more than happy to remove the portion about the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge. I've researched and written another article, directly related to this topic, called Shahawar Matin Siraj describing the attempted subway plot of 34th Street Herald Square. However, I feel that this entire issue, however controversial, is simply a conservative-liberal debate:

• The Anti-Arab Sentiment I was able to describe was real and did occur. It has since been deleted by a more conservative user who felt that this was an inaccurate description of the neighborhood sentiment or the attempt of a user to portray the neighborhood in a more negative sense.
• Likewise, the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge was also deleted several times because it "lacked adequate facts." I disagree because I have factual evidence to the contrary, quoting New York Times articles. The same is true of the Anti-Arab sentiment, but no one was willing to side with the New York Times article that I showed as proof. Why someone would want to have one but not the other is rather clear in my mind, but I would like an explanation about why the two positions are not accurate and not deserving of their place on this article.

Concerning the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge, it would probably do best if given a separate article, and, as it received great media coverage following 9/11, I think it is of sufficient importance to do so. Looking at other articles, I do not see as much contemporary politics as I do in this one, confirming my suspicions that the Islamic Society of Bay Ridge section would be best in another article.

However, as a provision to future editors, I strongly urge you to read and research the topic before you act emotionally and delete my work. I provide a strong case in all that I write and encourage others to do the same. Sincerely, --Screwball23 ^talk 22:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I added a couple of sentences acknowledging the Arab population. The fact is Bay Ridge is home to one of America's oldest Arab communities. Since the 1800s Lebanese Christians have been immigrating to the neighborhood. In recent years, Muslims from across the Middle East have also moved to Bay Ridge because of its history as a large enclave of Arabs. It didn't happen overnight. Among the Arab population, I'd say it's half Muslim and half Christian. It happened over 150 years. There is no reason for the Italians and Irish in the neighborhood to resent the Arabs when they've been living in Bay Ridge as long they have, if not longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EnterPuppets (talk • contribs) 04:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe there's no reason to, but apparently, some do (see the vandalism I just reverted). --Irn (talk) 23:19, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Links

Once again, someone has messsed with the links. If you want to add a link, do so and put it at the end. Blogs are not permitted in links. Advertising (ie. BR Prep) is not permitted. What if everyone decided to use the links to advertise their business? Please show some respect when editing this page. 10 February 2008 --

I see that there is some fighting about the links. Please remember that Wikipedia is not a links repository. It is an encyclopedia. All links should be informative, and by that I mean telling you more about the neighborhood. Photo sites are fine, and forums are fine. Advertising and politics are not. The page is not being ruined by taking out links, because the article is not about the links, it is about the information being presented directly on the page. Which, I may add, could be better. -- Lampbane 18:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Middle Class

I changed "working class" in the first sentence of the "Life" section to "middle class." Bay Ridge is most definitely a middle class neighborhood, a kind that's becoming less and less common in Brooklyn (hence the second part of that sentence is correct). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 162.83.151.57 (talk) 07:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

"Bay Ridge is a largely middle class neighborhood and is one of the few such places remaining in Brooklyn."

I think this sentence could use some explanation. In what way are middle class neighborhoods becoming uncommon in Brooklyn? Are formerly middle class neighborhoods going to seed or becoming upper class neighborhoods? Can you cite an example or two? The sentence by itself does not seem to make much sense. Thank you.

I think the sentence refers to the combination of two things. One is the upscaling of the neighborhoods around downtown Brooklyn (Brooklyn Heights, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope, Fort Greene, etc., and, a bit farther north, Williamsburg and Greenpoint), many of which were well were fairly well off before, but are now beginning to rival areas of Manhattan in real estate prices and cultural cachet. The other is the changing demographics of the rest of Brooklyn in the postwar era, starting with white flight and continuing with the strong wave of Russian, Chinese, and Hispanic immigration into many areas of southern Brooklyn since the late 80s. Neighborhoods that were historically enclaves of particular European ethnic groups, such as Bensonhurst (Italians), are increasingly populated by immigrants who tend to have lower incomes than those they replaced, who often move to bigger (and often less expensive per square foot) homes in Staten Island or New Jersey. The other side of the demographic coin is the high degree of segregation between blacks and other racial groups in Brooklyn, which also heightens income disparities. This is all a reflection of the more general decline of the middle class in the United States; it's not specific to Brooklyn. But cities like New York, where people live in such close quarters, make contrasts like these more evident.

Hmmm...you talk about white flight and then mention the rise in Russian imigration to the neigborhood. I don't think that would be the right terminology in this case. I understand that you're saying that the 'status quo' residents are shifting between various ethnic groups. Again, though, we are discussing a city and neigborhood where people identify more fervently with there cultural background than their racial classification. An occurence that doesn't happen as much in the rest of the country. Just my own two cents. -SJI

I think 'white flight' is still a good term to use, at least to put the migration in the same context as that which occurred in lots of other American cities post-WWII. In New York, it just happened that there were periods where this was compensated for by immigration, a lot of which -in the case of southern Brooklyn- happened to be white, but, as you implied, of a very different cultural background, so the character of the demographic shift may be slightly concealed by the race numbers.

Still there was clearly a demographics shift. If I remember correctly the neighborhood used to be mostly Scandinavian at one point. Obviously this is far from the case today despite the Norwegian Day Parade. There does seem to be a sort of erosion of certain cultural heritage in the area. Sunset Park's shift is clear to identify, it's just not Irish-Polish at all anymore. Bay Ridge's shift is more than ethnic. The area has a disproportionate number of Christian churches which seems a strange contrast to the large number of Jewish and Muslim residents now living in the area. JRWalko 14:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Strange contrast? Not at all. About 40% of the neighborhood is Irish or Italian. There are also a large number of Greek and Lebanese Christians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.247.131.60 (talk) 01:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Finding Fault with Life

I have a number of peeves with the Life section to this article. The points that disturb me are sometimes subjective, so I am reluctant to step in with corrections until I can obtain some feedback. Whether you strongly affirm my views or believe them clearly in error, it would be good to hear from you. Your responses will decide whether (and how) I make changes to the article.
_________________

There is some discussion about the presence of Arabs that has been removed from this article. In fact, while no one would describe BR as a predominantly arabic neighbourhood, there has been a distinctive arab presence in BR since shortly before 1900 (e.g. in the form of arab grocery stores). These early Arab residence were exclusively Christian refugees from the Levant - Lebannon and Syria (at that time still one country) - escaping war and religious persecution.

Beginning in the early 80s a large influx of culturally distinctive Arab Moslem began appearing. The addition of Arab muslims to ethnic mix is certainly the most conspicuous change in BR in recent years. As such, it is misleading (not to say ingenuous) to compare their role with other groups, e.g. the Scandanavians, whose community at one time was centred at almost the same location (near 69th Street), but which today is moribund.
_________________

One article entry:

There is also a thriving bar scene, with residents frequenting the Irish pubs ..

This made me laugh. It must have been written by an estate agent, I guess. Bay Ridge certainly does have plenty of bars, but to talk about a "thriving bar scene" really gives the wrong impression. BR bars are generally filthy, dimly lit drink holes, where sullen, uncommunicative divorced men sit nursing their $1 beers (generally served with a free cockeroach)..
_____________

This section states that 20+% of the population of BR is over 60. I was surprised to find out that this merits BR's designation as a retirement community of sorts. Is this percentage of oldsters then so different from neighbouring communities or the overall demographics of the US?

--Philopedia 18:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I lived in Bay Ridge 1980-1983, and grew quite fond of its genuine neighborhood character, as opposed to the gentrified Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights. I also greatly enjoyed its quiet tree-lined streets, the park along Shore Rd., and its location on the Narrows, repleat with nocturnal fog horns and the sight of ocean going vessels. The Verranzano-Narrows bridge is still another striking feature of its landscape, with its long graceful arcing lines and towering height.

The article seems to plagarize the Blue Guide to NY.

I find it odd that the article characterizes Bay Ridge as ethnically diverse. That does not at all conform to my experience of the place. The Bay Ridge I knew was distinctly Italian. It in fact was generally known as the place where Mafia grandmothers lived, which made it relatively safe, especially at night. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Borrisbatanov (talk • contribs) 05:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Bay Ridge, Brookly, NY

I am trying to find information about Bay Ridge Hospital which apparently has closed. I think it was located on Ovington Ave. My grandfather, Dr. John P. McQuillin was the founder and my grandmother, Bess Mettler McQuillin, was Supervisor of Nurses. Norman McQuillin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.244.108.208 (talk) 19:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

St. Michael's Church

There's a picture of St. Michael's church (third picture down, on right column side). I only lived in the Ridge for a few years -- no seriously, I am not being obsequious, there are more informed Brooklynites out there than me so tell me if I am wrong --- but I thought that was in Sunset Park. Like in the 30s...i drove up 4th ave. most mornings, and that slightly vulgar shaped dome was NOT in the ridge. Am I crazy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.89.248.73 (talk) 05:01, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

MTA Buses

I don't like the exposed markups for the bus links in the transportation section. I tried to get rid of one of them, but it proved to be disastrous, so I cancelled that edit. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 03:31, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

External Links

Please do not make changes to External Links unless it is to add a new one at the bottom or to correct a link. These links have been in this order for many years, so you can't just come along and put yours first or remove the others and put your there.

Do not put any advertising or political or anything else that isn't community related. Just because you think it's community related, doesn't mean it is. There are a few of these there now that will be removed.

One last thing. Please put the date at the end of your post here so we can see when it was posted. Thank you. 07/25/2015.bre (talk) 15:30, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

The fact that the external links have stayed the same for a long time is a good reason to reconsider them. With the passage of time, the article has changed, Wikipedia policy has changed, and the external links have changed. You should look over WP:EL. I just removed two links. First, a link to a small community message board that was described as the "official site" of the neighborhood. Neighborhood's can't have official sites, and there doesn't seem to be anything notable about this message board. Second, an article on personal blog about the neighborhood. The article might be a good reference, but violates WP:ELNO #1. Fitnr 17:27, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I have removed the external links that there's been a bit of edit-warring over lately, with the editor repeatedly restoring them having done nothing else here on en-WP. The link that was labelled "official website" is not an official website, but a site that is privately owned and operated, and the other links either don't add anything to the article above what would normally be featured in an article here or shouldn't be here under any circumstances (see WP:ELNO). So do not restore the links again unless you can point to a Wikipedia policy that supports adding the links. Thomas.W ^talk 19:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

These links have been here for years. That should be enough to keep them. If you google Bay Ridge, the 1st on the list is bayridge.com. It has been that way for years and is on the top page of many search engines. Bay Ridge community isn't even an official name if you want get particular. There are no official boundaries for it and no govt officials that specify Bay Ridge as them representing their community. I don't know why you decided to select this site, I'm sure I can point out hundreds that have links that don't meet the standards. It's only because someone decided to take everyone else's links out and leave his own. Please let me know what to do now to get my link restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bay Ridge (talk • contribs)

No, having been there for years is not a reason for keeping the links in the article. They were removed per Wikipedia's rules regarding external links, which make no exceptions for links that have managed to evade scrutiny for years by being referred to as an "official website" even though it's a privately owned and operated site. A mislabelling that looks deliberate to me. And the other links don't belong in the article either. Thomas.W ^talk 20:31, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

What about just having a link called Bayridge.net, a local web site? Would that be okay then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bay Ridge (talk • contribs)

No, see WP:ELNO. We link to official sites, not private sites, other than under very specific circumstances, none of which fit your site. Thomas.W ^talk 01:55, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

What about the external links on this URL, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Avenue_%28Brooklyn%29. It has nothing to do with Third Avenue. If you are not going to let me have a link why is the guy that started all this allowed his link? And I will give you more links of this web site on other pages. The only reason this edit 'war' started was because he removed all all links on Bay Ridge, Brooklyn and put his own by itself. He is all over the place with his links on Wikipedia.

And here is another with external links. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_NY — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bay Ridge (talk • contribs)

For the record, I have nothing to do with the "Forgotten NY" website, and have never edited Third Avenue (Brooklyn) or Forgotten NY. –Fitnr 02:04, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't even know what that means. No, I never edited those sites because they have NOTHING to do with me. What does FITNR have to do with Bay Ridge, Brooklyn to come along and start editing the page and removing all other links except his own, Forgotten NY?

Once again, my argument is that Bay Ridge is NOT an official town, city or borough. It is just a neighborhood, just like adjoining neighborhoods, Bensonhurst, Sunset Park, Fort Hamilton, Dyker Heights. There are NO govt officials or official agencies for Bay Ridge, other than those created by someone who is not an official of Bay Ridge. If you look at the adjoining neighborhoods, you'll see they all have external links and it is not fair to deprive Bay Ridge, Brooklyn of having the same. If anyone should have a link it should be the owner of the domain Bayridge.com. If Bay Ridge is googled, it comes out first. It is also 1st or near the tops of other search engines, along with the Wikipedia entry for it. There is NO bayridge.gov because it is not an official city or town. Why are you depriving Bay Ridge, Brooklyn of having ANY external links? Are you going to go through the dozens of other neighborhoods and do the same? Please answer me that question.

Bay Ridge has more than a small Message Board. It has a section on history, a directory of local businesses and information about community services such as Sanitation, Fire Dept, Police, etc., and much more. Does Thomas W even come from the neighborhood of Bay Ridge or know of it? Please also let me know how to escalate this to a higher level of support as I am not satisfied with this outcome.

Reverted Bay Ridge, Brooklyn page to original External Links prior to vandalism.24.193.121.251 (talk) 15:33, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

• And I removed the links again, per WP:ELNO. The IP is the same editor as User:Bay Ridge who is edit-warring to keep a link to their private website (bayridge.net) in the article. Thomas.W ^talk 15:37, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

The web site that has for a long time masqueraded as an official web site is, as can be seen here, a privately owned and operated site with a forum, classified ads and a "Yellow Pages" directory, and that, because of the ads etc, generates money for its owner (see the FAQ of the site). Which explains why an SPA, and now also an IP that geolocates to the same place, fight to keep the link in the article. Thomas.W ^talk 15:58, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Popular Culture

Bay Ridge is a central focus of many issues of the 'Gwenpoole' comic book from Marvel Comics. Lots42 (talk) 18:23, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Politics

It would probably be more accurate to say that Bay Ridge is only considered to be relatively conservative or (more accurately) less liberal when compared to Brooklyn as whole. Precinct level analyses of the last 2 presidential elections show that the neighborhood as a whole voted securely for the Democrat candidate even if by narrower margins than all of Brooklyn: 2012 and 2016. By national standards it voted considerably more democrat than the country as a whole, so saying it's conservative without bringing in context seems very inaccurate.

High and very democrat leaning turnout in Bay Ridge was also just instrumental in electing Max Rose and Andrew Gounardes to replace Donovan and Golden. Frankly it's a bit weird there is a politics section at all, but this one is incredibly inaccurate and intellectually dishonest.