Talk:Bayt Thul

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Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Socin and Hartman??

Latest comment: 7 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Ok, so Frantzman writes on p.165 about this place "that M. Hartmann found 26 people there in 1871 and Albert Socin found 36 in 1870", cited to "Ben-Arieh, Yehoshua. The Sanjak of Jerusalem in the 1870s.‘ in Cathedra, 36. Jerusalem: Yad Yitzhak Ben Zvi. 1985. page 86." Alas, that is in Hebrew, however, both the original German sources are now on the net. See User:Huldra/Socin

First, from my understanding of German, both Hartmann and Socin examined the same census, didn't they? Secondly, I cannot find Bayt Thul in Socin, though I do find it in Hartmann, see User:Huldra/Socin#p._146, though where Ben-Arieh/Frantzman gets the 26 people from, is anyones guess. And Frantzman does not refer to any other Hartmann or Socin sources, than the two I have mentioned on User:Huldra/Socin.

We really need someone with an understanding of Hebrew (to examine the Ben-Arieh source), and someone with a better understanding than me of German (to examine the original Hartmann and Socin sources), Huldra (talk) 23:53, 11 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

@Huldra: Maybe User:El_C can help. The article of Ben-Arieh is here. (The title has 1870s, not 1872s.) It is chock full of information that I wish I could read. Bayt Thul is #35 on page 86 (p14 of the PDF file). From right to left, the column headings are: Locality name, serial number, Socin (divided into men and total), Schick 1896, Census 1922, Socin 1870, Hartman 1871, Guerin, size (divided into Socin and PEF), Hutteroth id code, Toledano serial number. Socin 1870 and Hartman 1871 are for "number of houses". Footnotes on Bayt Thul: #2: Socin called it Bet Illo; #3: Schick gave a number but it is clearly a mistake; #4: something about Hutteroth that I can't read.

Perhaps some Hutteroth localities not identified by Hutteroth are identified in this article? The very similar but not identical numbers for 1870 and 1871 indicate they weren't taken from exactly the same documents (recall that Ottoman censuses were more like continuous registrations that were periodically collated). Zero^talk 09:35, 12 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for spotting the 1870s mistake, fixed now, and for finding the Ben-Arieh source. The Ben-Arieh source gives 9 under 1871, and that fits well with Hartmann, 1883, p. 118: Bayt Thul 9 houses. He writes 7 for 1870 data, and that could fit with the same number in Socin, p. 146 (that is 34), except that that looked like Beitillu, as noted in the above footnote #2.

Kark, p. 258 writes about Bayt Thul that 7 houses were inhabited by about 50 people in 1870….sourced to Ben-Arieh, "Settlement and Population".

And the Toledano serial number must be taken from his Hebrew article about liwa Jerusalem; the numbers do not fit with the English version one.

First of all we need to understand Hartmann vs Socin. I have been struggling with the German on Hartmann, 1883, pp. 102-105. Besides the fact that Hartman is clearly very little impressed by the accuracy of the Ottoman officials, I cannot quite see the relationship between the Hartmann numbers, and the Socin numbers for 1870. User:Jayen466, do you have time to help?

And yeah, there might be places not identified in Hütteroth and Abdulfattah, just earlier this year one was found, see Talk:Umm al-Faraj. Huldra (talk) 20:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)Reply

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